Premeditation

[lin]

Than why have others wrote about lesser included charges, and you have not corrected them?

Someone throw me a bone here. Marspiter (spell?) I think wrote about the possible murder convictions. I just don't believe it is all or nothin!

You are correct. There are Lesser Included Offenses or LIO's that may be considered by the jury. It is not an "all or nothing" proposition. It's not just that others have posted about LIO's it's that LIO's are Florida law. The appropriate links have been posted in this thread repeatedly so I don't understand the confusion but hope it's finally cleared up!

 

[coco puff]

And, that's fine!

If everyone held the same opinion, we wouldn't have a forum.

And if the evidence had to be that crystal clear, we would have computers deciding the accused's fate instead of 12 people with individual thought processes and life experiences with which to make the final verdict.

 

[lin]

I still want evidence that he's not telling the truth.

The defense has already tried to float the RK theory and appears to have abandoned it, imo. It floated like a lead weight. I'm waiting for the Cain theory -- the cop didn't investigate cos he knew she was there cos he put her there! rofl

 

[lin]

Save for the heart sticker. There is nothing to suggest anyone else was involved in Caylee's demise than her glorious mother. I'll bet she is stuffing her face right now on pastries from her commissary account. Cuz she was arrested on a "whim." According to her own words, "What has been given can be taken away. Everyone lies. Everyone dies." There is no other SODDI. There is not proof of an accident/murder that I ahve seen. Other than KC knows the truth and WILL not SPEAK. She deserves whatever fate she has dealt for herself. The prosecutors are not painting her in an unfair light. She is.

Exactly. I've seen several posters suggest a pool theory but have yet to see any evidence to back it up. Maybe we need a "Pool Theory" thread?

 

[magnolia]

BBM......IF the JT sighting of KC with a small bag at Walmart turned out to be medication that would cause drowsiness....that would be key. But let's not forget that there was likely childrens medication in the house...even adult medication such as cold medicine etc........enough of that in a sippy with juice could render a toddler incapacitated and unable to remove duct tape. Let's also remember that that tape was stuck to her hair. Even IF she tried to remove it, the pulling on her scalp from the hair being stuck could cause panic and suffocation.

Exactly sleuther-Can you imagine a child proceeding to pull duct tape off that would pull out chunks of her hair? Not to mention the discomfort of pulling it away from the skin and lips. We are talking about a tape with a very strong adhesive backing here.

 

[lin]

If she had been drugged, cholorformed, but alive and taped of course she couldn't fight the tape being applied, but it would definitely premeditated

For them to claim some kind of accident, Casey would have to take the stand, and up until now, she's not talking. That would mean she would have to admit to some kind of guilt, and personally, if JB is running the show, I just can't see that duo doing that ( incompetent counsel notwithstanding)

I don't assume a two year old would have the strength and fine motor skills to remove industrial strength duct tape, even if she had the reasoning skills to understand that her mouth and nose had been taped, of which I'm also not convinced.

I've seen zero evidence to prove that Caylee was not bound but have seen evidence of an unexplained extraneous piece of matching duct tape at the scene which the jury may use to infer binding, if they feel it is warranted.

Finally, there are other methods to restrain a toddler, even if the above lack of strength and motor skills somehow didn't apply. Therefore, to me, the lack of binding is a non-starter and I'd be amazed if the defense brought it up.

 

[lin]

Even IF Caylee "acciedently" drowned in the pool while KC was either online or texting or phoning.....WHY wouldn't the stupid B****admit it so we could all sympathis with her and she would not put herself and her family through the ordeal of a DP murder case?????????????????????????????I know the girl is dumber than a box of rocks, but REALLY, could she be SO dumb as to risk the DP? At this point, WHY NOT just tell the truth if it was a terrible tragic acciedent? I think she hasn't spoken up at this point, cause there is NO acceidental "story" to tell. Caylee was MURDERED. End of story.

JB sought a plea deal early on. IMO, KC couldn't accept one because it required leading them to the body which she knew would prove the lie of an 'accidental' death.

 

[JBean]

You are correct. There are Lesser Included Offenses or LIO's that may be considered by the jury. It is not an "all or nothing" proposition. It's not just that others have posted about LIO's it's that LIO's are Florida law. The appropriate links have been posted in this thread repeatedly so I don't understand the confusion but hope it's finally cleared up!

Aaargh!
I think some of the confusion in that specific reference is thinking that a manslaughter conviction is the same as a premeditated murder conviction. I don't think anyone is saying there are not lesser charges that will be available to the jury. But all the lesser charges are not premeditated murder which is what we are trying to analyze.
Is there proof of premeditation so the SA can get a premeditated murder conviction and is the tape the smoking gun as many have suggested? or will the conviction be something different? 2nd degree? felony murder?or no conviction at all? Look at Cameron Brown.

I get the feeling people are not reading the thread LOL. and I do not know how else to say this.

 

[sumbunny]

I agree lin. Casey knew the duct tape on Caylee's mouth would show it wasn't an accident..so no way jose, she won't/can't plead. The duct tape shows it wasn't an accident.

 

[marspiter]

I'm trying to catch up with the thread and have noticed a couple of misunderstandings of Florida law posted. Just in case correction hasn't been made yet:

KC was indicted for 1st degree murder. Under Florida law, 2nd degree murder is a Less Included Offense. (LIO). Therefore, 2nd degree murder and all other LIO's have been on the table since the day KC was indicted. Please see other posts in this thread here and here for more specific information on LIO's.

Although KC was not specifically charged with Felony Murder, she may be convicted of felony murder, even though it is not a specific LIO. This is per Knight v. State, 338 So.2d 201 (Fla. 1976) and cited in the Florida Standard Jury Instructions. Our own AZLawyer, Themis and others have reviewed Knight and agreed that the jury may be instructed on felony murder although it is not listed in the indictment in the Legal Procedures thread, see Themis' posts here and continuing on page 27, here.

Neither felony murder nor 2nd degree murder require premeditation to be proven. However, wanted to clear up the misunderstandings of Florida law.

Just wanted to say Thanks Lin I was looking for this info and couldn't find it. I knew we had talked about this before but couldn't remember where.

 

[marspiter]

Casey is not charged with murder two. The only murder charge is murder one. So, no murder one, no murder.

Aaargh!
I think the confusion may be that some are confusing a manslaughter convictionas being the same as a premeditated murder conviction. I don't think anyone is saying there are not lesser charges that will be available to the jury. But all the lesser charges are not premeditated murder which is what we are trying to analyze.
Is there proof of premeditation so the SA can get a premeditated murder conviction and is the tape the smoking gun as many have suggested? or will the conviction be something different? or no conviction at all? Look at Cameron Brown.

I get the feeling people are not reading the thread LOL.

I think that's how the confusion started JBean. I could be wrong though.

 

[LCoastMom]

We don't know for sure the tape is the COD but the jury may draw that reasonable inference. Without KC's testimony to a different excuse, I don't see how one could even be submitted. Oh wouldn't the cross be fun??

Sure, the defense could ask different experts, 'Is it possible that it was abc?' But without anything to back up the abc, the jury will have to disregard it. Just as an extreme example, the defense could ask the expert, 'Is it possible that space aliens put the industrial strength duct tape on Caylee?' But without any evidence to support the invention of space aliens, it's not a viable theory.

That "no evidence" thing, as you and others have pointed out, can cut both ways. There is no evidence that Caylee was anywhere near the pool prior to death and there is more and more evidence and/or lack of evidence developing to prove she wasn't. (Witness JT; lack of pool chemical traces found; etc.) Similarly, there is no evidence to support the 'protrusion' theory that was suggested by some. KC would have to get up and testify to that, imo. Same with the leakage of bodily fluids suggested by some others, imo. The only evidence we have goes against that theory, imo.

Wondering about the leakage theory, if they were to go with it and KC or someone KC brought into the loop testified to this; wouldn't that do more harm than good to her case? their whole defense has been KC never knew Caylee was dead. period.

The leakage theory got beaten to death, here. It was a hard fought battle for those standing in that corner.

If our speculation that JB and friends are reading here is correct and the prosecution connects Caylee to KC via the car, (or something else we don't know about yet). Are they likely to toss the anyone but Casey theory, come up with some obscene story of an accident or Caylee was returned already deceased? KC panicked yada yada..

IMO, the peeps who post here are far ahead of your average jury. Is this a theory they could get hooked with because its less horrific to think about?

 

[JBean]

I think that's how the confusion started JBean. I could be wrong though.

Good morning Marspiter
It is later clarified.
not directed at you M..this is just a general request:

Please people read the thread and then we can stay on the topic instead of all these detours.

is there enough to show premeditation for a premeditated murder conviction?Is the tape the smoking gun for premed as the OP suggests?

 

[celticthyme]

I don't assume a two year old would have the strength and fine motor skills to remove industrial strength duct tape, even if she had the reasoning skills to understand that her mouth and nose had been taped, of which I'm also not convinced.

I've seen zero evidence to prove that Caylee was not bound but have seen evidence of an unexplained extraneous piece of matching duct tape at the scene which the jury may use to infer binding, if they feel it is warranted.

Finally, there are other methods to restrain a toddler, even if the above lack of strength and motor skills somehow didn't apply. Therefore, to me, the lack of binding is a non-starter and I'd be amazed if the defense brought it up.

Lin,
FWIW, I personally believe that Caylee
1) had been drugged ( probably consistently)
2) was taped in a PREMEDITATED fashion ( causing her death)
3) that the 13 inch piece of tape was used in a malicious way, probably to bind Caylee

The point I was trying to make, ( obviously,not very well) was that at this point WE do not have measurable proof but it is my profoundest hope hope that the SA et al, will provide this proof at trial

 

[JBean]

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4281059#post4281059"]Premeditated Murder #972 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]