Psych Profile- Elizabeth Johnson

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Yes I did searched that last night and saw the video of Smiths on Geraldo last month but nothing with Pat Brown. I even looked at Pat Brown's utube videos.
 
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This post fits in this thread as well.
 
It's very odd to me that there have been no motions or court orders for a psych eval for Elizabeth.

Would those be public record does anyone know?

Could it be done just on recommendation of the jail or her attorney and us not know about it?
 
I'm not so sure where to put this...is EJ suppose to be in court tommorrow too, or just TS?

I was kind of concerned about all the media being there...I'm concerned she (EJ) is going to eat it up, and be even more determined to stick with her plan (whatever it is) after seeing all the hype she is creating.
 
BeanE said:
It's very odd to me that there have been no motions or court orders for a psych eval for Elizabeth.

Would those be public record does anyone know?

Could it be done just on recommendation of the jail or her attorney and us not know about it?
Click to expand...

I agree it's odd...very odd.
I believe that the parts that her lawyers choose to let out will be public record, however the psych eval and reports would, I think, be covered under HIPPA.
I am not sure...
 
I'm not a psychologist and I am sure it shows but, despite the despicable things she has done, I also feel for this young girl. Don't hate me for it please. I think her fear of abandonment and a sense of being disposable are some big reasons for her detachment from G. She had no one to model parenting to her, was shuffled from foster home to foster home, had relatives that for one reason or another allowed her to enter that system rather than protect her from it and even when her parents did re-insert themselves into her life, they died shortly after. Next on the scene, LM who, understandably, couldn't stay in an environment that explosive and eventually left. I would have made the same choice he did but I can see that his leaving had to aggravate any fear she had of being unimportant, invisible, disposable. She obviously mattered to him once but, her complaints were about things like being left with the baby and him coming home late from??? was it work? I can't remember now. It's not fair to put the burden on LM but I wonder if him talking to her, out of concern for her as the mother of his child and as aperson who has been through what she has, might get the information out. He has seemed rational and has avoided making sensationalized statements in every bit of coverage I've seen. His reactions don't seem hateful-- just worried and something tells me that he has an understanding that she is not well and depression (PPD or otherwise) can cause a person to do things that are ordinarily done by an evil person. I'm sure he was stunned and scared when he received her text/call but I wish LE had encouraged him to call her. I have a feeling that if he were to say something like "please come back and let's get you some help; I'm really worried about you and don't want you to feel this way" or implied "Gabriel is the one great thing we did together" the determination she pushed her plan through with, would have been derailed.

I'm not excusing her response to her child or what she has done but I am trying to understand how this young mother was so "out-of-it." I wonder if the text threat was her dramatic (albeit immature and totally inappropriate) way to see if she really mattered to LM or if the direction of her life turning to motherhood was justified. I've watched teenagers (and older) say all kinds of things for effect instead of saying what they really needed. If she was feeling abandoned by him ( I know, he didn't abandon her but perception is a big thing) after so many others had left her alone and on her own, I'd say she was almost powerless when fairy-godmother TS arrived on the scene. And to earn the approval of a mother figure, a young girl who had never been mothered, might do almost anything especially if they felt everyone else had turned their back.
 
2. A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation.


I seriously doubt that EJ would engage in any dialogue with LM. I agree that he was probably the most stable relationship in her life. But the sense of betrayal that she has expressed (whether real or imagined) indicates that she would not engage with him on any level if he was the last person on earth. In her perception (which is notably distorted) his "transgression" is unforgivable.
 
I'm going to wax philosophical here for a moment:

I think, in my non professional way, that self esteem has a huge impact on us. If you think of yourself as a good person, and you don't let others destroy your self esteem then you are less likely to do bad things, because you have to face yourself in the mirror and you want to be proud of what you see. (This is excluding sociopaths, who are often practically in love with themselves and often quite evil.)

So, what I want to know is what Elizabeth thinks of herself. I think it will help determine her most normal and logical course of action (as I also believe that logic means different things to different people.) Does she have a high level of self esteem? She seems to take care of herself physically, which is a sign that she does, but plenty of people that are wallowing in self pity and they can still brush their hair and take a shower. She seems to be unhappy with Logan, unhappy with Gabriel, unhappy with just about everything if it brought on apartment destroying rage. So why did she stay in that situation so long? It's something that people with low self esteem do. Not to mention that it's hard to grow up in foster care with all the associated issues and not come out of it with a pretty crappy self and world image.
 
It sounds like, on some level, she wanted to do the right thing. Having been through the foster care system she stated that she didn't want G to do the same. Maybe she realized that she wasn't great at mothering whether because of post-pregnancy depression or having never received decent mothering herself. I think the rage came from not being able to control the situation and the feelings of powerlessness that come when you can't seem to effect any change in your own situation. To some degree, most of us have done it. Personally, I've snapped at my kids for things that aren't important because I was frustrated with how ineffective I felt at getting things perfectly. That's a whole 'nother topic. What I'm trying to say is, if she felt overwelmed and was often left alone with G, and didn't know what to do, and didn't have understanding or help from anyone and most importantly, couldn't figure out what the solution to her dilemna could be, I believe she'd be most receptive to the suggestions TS or some other illegal trafficking scammer might make. Almost anythng for a way out because that, to her, could have meant survival. Especially if they stroked her need for understanding and self-esteem by saying she was doing the right thing for herself and Gabriel.

Honestly, I feel most young parents are at a such serious disadvantage. There are so many "fashion accessory" babies born today. When reality comes calling and playing house isn't any fun anymore, Whomever is home with the baby most really needs to want to be there because it isn't always all that glamorous. Especially if you rarely see the person who helped you create the child. She was also isolated from friends once she was home with G. Couple that with the disadvantage of growing up as she did and it's a recipe for some serious depression--nevermind the post partum aspect. If she had no one to talk to about how she was feeling, if no one realized how serious her depression was or if she was being told to "snap out of it" I can only imagine that her desperation was at a critical high. Feeling like no one took her seriously may have motivated her destructive rage. In some weird way, I think it was a cry for help and instead of help, she caused her own rejection which only further fueled the fire.
 
Yeah, I agree but if it was only that he tried to reach her, it might communicate to a seriously confused young woman that she wasn't invisible. He is the person in her life who argued for keeping the baby. But he's also the person who she feels hurt her the most. Knowing that he had concern for her well-being even if they never talked, and it was only done in messages, could be critical. I know it would take tremendous kindness and it isn't a fair position for LM to be put in, but it might be the only way she'd ever reveal anything. She obviously doesn't have much in the way of people who honestly care about her. Perhaps, she would respond favorably.
 
chell said:
It sounds like, on some level, she wanted to do the right thing. Having been through the foster care system she stated that she didn't want G to do the same. Maybe she realized that she wasn't great at mothering whether because of post-pregnancy depression or having never received decent mothering herself.
~respectfully snipped for space~
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ITA: I can see her fantasizing as a child that perhaps she would be rescued by adoptive parents.

I also appreciate your ability to empathize with EJ, for I believe her childhood was indeed quite tragic and filled with sorrow.

The instability of growing up with addicted parents is traumatic enough. Then insert her into the seriously flawed foster care system that is rife with exploitation, neglect and abuse, both physical and sexual. I have tried to pinpoint the exact number of years she was in the FCS to no avail, but five different placements indicates to me that there were problems. Serious environmental factors that were beyond her control.

The one area where she did have control in her life was in the educational system as evidenced by high achievement that culminated in a full paid scholarship to college.

When she gets to college, I believe she was overwhelmed by the social pressures (other than the academic pressures) due to maladaptive coping skills and she left after just two weeks.

Her pregnancy was probably accidental, and, I agree she realized that she was not cut out to be a parent. When she perceived she was betrayed by the most stable person in her life (though I believe her relationship with LM was quite volatile/passionate), she decided to take matters into her own hands and take control back. Control over little Gabriel's destiny.

And here is where I see a fork in the road.

I think her silence is a good indicator of the path she took if my interpretation is on target. I am leaning toward the silence meaning that she wants Gabriel to live the fantasy that little EJ could only dream of.
 
DaneBramage said:
ITA: I can see her fantasizing as a child that perhaps she would be rescued by adoptive parents.

I also appreciate your ability to empathize with EJ, for I believe her childhood was indeed quite tragic and filled with sorrow.

The instability of growing up with addicted parents is traumatic enough. Then insert her into the seriously flawed foster care system that is rife with exploitation, neglect and abuse, both physical and sexual. I have tried to pinpoint the exact number of years she was in the FCS to no avail, but five different placements indicates to me that there were problems. Serious environmental factors that were beyond her control.

The one area where she did have control in her life was in the educational system as evidenced by high achievement that culminated in a full paid scholarship to college.

When she gets to college, I believe she was overwhelmed by the social pressures (other than the academic pressures) due to maladaptive coping skills and she left after just two weeks.

Her pregnancy was probably accidental, and, I agree she realized that she was not cut out to be a parent. When she perceived she was betrayed by the most stable person in her life (though I believe her relationship with LM was quite volatile/passionate), she decided to take matters into her own hands and take control back. Control over little Gabriel's destiny.

And here is where I see a fork in the road.

I think her silence is a good indicator of the path she took if my interpretation is on target. I am leaning toward the silence meaning that she wants Gabriel to live the fantasy that little EJ could only dream of.
Click to expand...

Rather than going through each point, I'll just say that I agree. I think that she is rewriting her own history through Gabriel. She feels that she wasn't loved, so she tries to counter her own lack of love for her child by "choosing" good loving parents. Is it likely that she would believe random strangers are good and loving? To me, the answer is yes, because she has no frame of reference for real parental love.

I think that she kept Gabriel as long as she did because he was, at first, everything she needed. he gave her something to love, something to love her, a bond to hold onto Logan, and that ever elusive chance to "do things over." The problem likely arose when Gabe started to show signs of independence, such as rolling over and becoming mobile, she feared that with that independence would come the loss of the unconditional love, since she likely feels that those that know her can't love her. Fundamentally flawed, as it were. (That is simply from experience. When you move through the foster system, they have a habit of moving you when you really start to band, not on purpose, it just happens a lot of the time, leading to that damaged goods feeling.) She may have realized that her feelings for him were not what a mother was supposed to feel, and after she decided that she didn't want to have something to use as leverage against Logan, she had no more need for him. The only thing that she could hold onto was the chance to do it over. And the only way that she could do that was to give him a family that would keep him forever.
I don't believe that she has dual personality or that she is a sociopath, but I am leaning towards a dissociative disorder, less severe than both a psychotic break or MPD. If it hurts, she turns off. (Once again, common with foster kids and children of addicts.) She would talk if this were painful for her, but it's not...and there is no way to make it painful, except MAYBE if they were to tell her they found him and he is in state care...that could make her snap, take away her ace in the hole.

IM-nonprofessional-O.
 
I googled "foster care + boston" and found this article from the Boston Globe.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2008/06/05/report_grim_on_teens_after_foster_care/

excerpt:

"The Boston Foundation, also found that 60 percent of these former foster children experienced symptoms of depression, 54 percent were unemployed, 34 percent used illegal drugs, 25 percent have been arrested, 11 percent have been sexually assaulted, and 8 percent have been incarcerated."
 
Hi Dane. I agree with much of your post. A couple things I'd like to note.

DaneBramage said:
The one area where she did have control in her life was in the educational system as evidenced by high achievement that culminated in a full paid scholarship to college.
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She also had control over getting help for herself. I feel terrible for the child Elizabeth was, and for the life that child had. But Elizabeth is 23, had been an adult for several years, and had ample opportunity to get help.

My understanding from a news article is that both Logan and her grandfather thought she was bipolar. I'm inclined to think they both encouraged her to get help.

She made the choice to stop taking her meds for PPD around December 8. That she was on meds tells me that she knew how and where to get help. She chose not to.

I have great empathy for children who are abused, and for the problems they suffer into adulthood. I applaud those who avail themselves of help. I can't give a pass though to adults who don't seek help for their problems, and hurt those around them.


DaneBramage said:
Her pregnancy was probably accidental, and, I agree she realized that she was not cut out to be a parent.
Click to expand...

Elizabeth's pregnancy was planned.

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DaneBramage said:
When she perceived she was betrayed by the most stable person in her life (though I believe her relationship with LM was quite volatile/passionate), she decided to take matters into her own hands and take control back. Control over little Gabriel's destiny.

And here is where I see a fork in the road. I think her silence is a good indicator of the path she took if my interpretation is on target. I am leaning toward the silence meaning that she wants Gabriel to live the fantasy that little EJ could only dream of.
Click to expand...

This I have to disagree with. Whereas she did tell her grandfather once that she wanted a better life for Gabe than she had, I haven't seen anything to support that. In her entire jail interview with the reporter, she expresses no concern at all for Gabe. Her complete lack of concern, or even of interest in Gabe is shocking. I don't think she has ever had any feeling for him.

I think her reasons for doing what she did are evident - she was in a rage at Logan, and wanted to hurt him.
 
I didn't mean that post to appear that I was justifying EJ's behavior in any way, shape or form. I was merely framing it in order to understand the behavior, as sick as it was.

I totally agree with you BeanE on her adult choices and her sadistic torture of Logan.

I was being optimistic in that post. I am sticking with my assessment that I think she is B(orderline)PD. I don't have enough info as to whether she is bipolar or not (she can be both). Flying into rages is a component to BPD and of bi-polar DO.

As to her silence I think in her twisted perspective both of our points are served.

As I said in a previous post, I keep vacillating between whether she killed Gabriel or not. I do find the information gleaned in the past couple of days hopeful.

There a lot of parallels between her and a certain case in FL, but the wild card in this case is EJ's intelligence level. It is much higher than the other person.

I think the only way to get her to talk is to charge her with murder and threaten the death penalty. That might sweat her, but I dunno...
 
And giving a child to potential parents that are unknown or hardly known because they "seem" qualified to take care of a child is exactly what happened to her. If that is wrong, I'm sure she wonders why it was allowed to happen to her. We know differently because most of us were more fortunate than that.
 
I'm not convinced she's bipolar either, Dane. I pointed that out only to express that Logan and her grandfather knew something was seriously wrong.

I posted a few minutes ago in the HG/couple thread some things Tammi said about Elizabeth's memory. I'd be interested in your thoughts on that when you have a chance.

Also your thoughts on Elizabeth's statement at her hearing where she said "Everything she said is completely false." referring to the county attorney. The county attorney had included a number of simple, basic, undeniable, provable, facts.

I think most people (if they said anything at all) would be astute enough only to categorically state as false a few select items there might be some question on.

I found it curious that Elizabeth rejected everything wholesale as lies.

Also of note is that the one and only thing that she did specifically mentioned in her rejection of the county attorney's testimony, was her fleeing. That's bizarre to me as well.

Your thoughts?
 
So I guess the real crux of this mini-discussion is emotional maturity and coping skills. I know many people who are very intelligent but emotionally immature.

Added after reading BeanE's post just above:

I just came back from the HG thread. When I was reading that I was thinking EJ's lack of recall sounded like depression. I don't know I'd have to have heard the conversation for inflection to give a better read.

As to the court responses, I think she was being reactionary/contrary it sounded very flippant to me (almost like a teenager). Maybe feigning for a possible future psych defense. Or she has a disassociative DO. Who knows.

I hate not knowing everything...
 
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