Questions on JD and SJ

[anastacia]

where the injuries were made by humans or animals. I've not seen the pics, (Nor will I!) so I just try and keep an open mind as to that.

Thanks to everyone for their ideas and input. And again, no need to apologize for not agreeing with me, I'm still forming and reforming opinions on the daily myself so any ideas are welcomed!
No forgiveness needed cher! Bouncing ideas off each other is what it's all about! Yes, I realize that particular quote was made in regards to the "Gainesville" murders, but that particular statement wasn't. I mean, he didn't just mean that because the Gainesville victims were found nude it pointed to a stranger, he meant any victims found nude indicated a stranger. I agree with this. John Douglas also said, in regards to the Jonbenet Ramsey murder, "There are ways in which parents kill, and ways they don't." I agree with that as well, and don't think the WM3 murders were committed by anyone who had ever had an emotional connection with the kids.

I also agree there was a sadistic sexual angle to the attacks, but more because they were found nude and hogtied, not so much the nature of the injuries. Mainly because there is debate over whether the injuries were caused by man or animals. I've not seen the pictures, (Nor will I!) so I have no opinion as to that.

 

[Lethalmatthew]

You are on the right path with this (bolded) thought. People will try and claim that the wound to the private area of CB was entirely made by animal predation, in an attempt to distract and lead you away from this correct path. Now, I don't recommend you go looking for the photos, but I can tell you this: I've seen some (cropped), and there is absolutely no denying that a man-made instrument was used in a stabbing motion on the upper-inner thighs of CB. I repeat, no denying it. Turvey references it in PL2, and he's exactly right (on this point). Now, couple this with the fact that absolutely zero blood was found on any of the boys' clothes -- zero -- and you have even more confirmation that this goes beyond a "staged" act; that the clothes were removed in the initial stages of the attack (not after, as they would if the crime was staged); and that there was a sexual, sadistic component to the attack. All these facets lead away from TH and/or DJ.

About the lack of blood on the clothes: I don't think that rules out a staged act. The clothes could have been removed by the boys themselves (for example, if they went swimming), or by an authoritative figure who wanted to humiliate them. To me, the bindings indicate a staged act. I can't remember where I read it, but I believe there was someone who tested the same bindings with the same knots and the same weight attached to it, and the bindings didn't hold it. I don't think the bindings would have been effective in restraining the victims. IMO, it was used to stage the crime as a sex crime, while in fact it was not. I'm not sure if the emasculation was caused by animals, but I can see a scenario in which the perp would do that (post-mortem) to make it look even more like a sex crime. JMO, of course.

 

[anastacia]

I agree with lethalmatthew, my gut feeling is that it wasn't so much a sex crime as it was staged to look like one. I feel that it was 'discipline' that got out of hand, and then the killer panicked and tried to make it look like what he thought a ritualistic cult kill would look like.

 

[Userid]

I can respect that stance, LethalMatthew -- you make a good point about the clothes, and I too can't dismiss the fact that the boys may have been swimming (particularly due to MM's one sock being stuffed inside his shoe). If there's one thing I'd question though, it's this: I don't see how, say if TH is involved, that he'd be able to go to this length to make it look like a staged crime (by emasculating CB, after the fact). I can see him stripping and tying the boys, but I can't see him doing that far. I mean, this is a guy that, for all intents and purposes, never was involved in anything remotely close to this; and his guilt is usually explained in an abuse-gone-wrong scenario.

Let me just say this about whether the wounds were caused by animals or not. The stabbing wounds on CB's thighs, are exactly like the wounds on SB's lower cheek (on his left side, underneath the supposed "bite mark"). Also, CB was the only one, technically, that did not die from drowning (if I'm incorrect, please tell me, but I'm fairly sure this is true). Wouldn't that indicate that he died from bleeding out, which in turn would indicate that the genital wound was inflicted while he was alive?

 

[anastacia]

Actually the autopsy report doesn't state whether any of the injuries were pre or post-mortem. Nor does it say anything about excessive blood loss. For CB it just lists multiple injuries as cause of death.

I've just always hoped and prayed that the 'emasculating' of CB was post-mortem animal scavenging.

 

[Userid]

Actually the autopsy report doesn't state whether any of the injuries were pre or post-mortem. Nor does it say anything about excessive blood loss. For CB it just lists multiple injuries as cause of death.

I've just always hoped and prayed that the 'emasculating' of CB was post-mortem animal scavenging.

I interpret "multiple injuries" to include the genital injury (as being a cause of death). Again, he is the only one who didn't die of his injuries in addition to drowning.

I hoped this too initially, but unfortunately, there's no way I can believe that after seeing these photos. The marking on his inner thighs (that match those on SB's face) right by his genitals could never, ever be mistaken for anything other than a man-made object. To think those injuries were man-made, but the genital injuries were animal predation, would be illogical.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

From memory, SJ saw the shoe floating. MA tried to recover the shoe and fell into the ditch, stumbling over MM's body. Then, BR is the policeman who actually got into the ditch and, on hands and knees, discovered the other two bodies and some clothing about 25 feet from MM's body.

Here's another possibility. Caution! Some won't like it! This ties both TH and JD to the crime.

Suppose one of my more outlandish theories has some merit. Suppose TH has his "teflon" status because JD (or SJ, but, IMO JD is a better suspect) is part of a pedophile ring with TH (and maybe JKM). Add to this some accusations from DE that JD used to intimidate his "charges" by threatening to get them in legal trouble if they refuse to perform certain "sexual favors" for him. I think one can get the picture without more specifics!

 

[Lethalmatthew]

I can respect that stance, LethalMatthew -- you make a good point about the clothes, and I too can't dismiss the fact that the boys may have been swimming (particularly due to MM's one sock being stuffed inside his shoe). If there's one thing I'd question though, it's this: I don't see how, say if TH is involved, that he'd be able to go to this length to make it look like a staged crime (by emasculating CB, after the fact). I can see him stripping and tying the boys, but I can't see him doing that far. I mean, this is a guy that, for all intents and purposes, never was involved in anything remotely close to this; and his guilt is usually explained in an abuse-gone-wrong scenario.

I see what you mean, Userid. The abuse-gone-wrong theory doesn't seem to jibe with the elaborate staging. However, it's impossible really to say how a person would react to an unintended murder he just committed. I think he tried to do as many things to the bodies that would distract LE's attention away from him. One of those things may have been the emasculation of CB, if it was post-mortem. TH worked in a slaughter house for several years in his younger life, so I don't think he would have been too squeamish to do that. If the emasculation was ante-mortem, it's a whole different story. I agree that even TH wouldn't do that.
FWIW, I once read that flesh flies prefer ante-mortem wounds over post-mortem wounds to lay their eggs in. Larvae were found in CB's eyes and nostrils, but not in his groin area. That could indicate that that wound was post-mortem, but it's not very solid.

 

[Userid]

I see what you mean, Userid. The abuse-gone-wrong theory doesn't seem to jibe with the elaborate staging. However, it's impossible really to say how a person would react to an unintended murder he just committed. I think he tried to do as many things to the bodies that would distract LE's attention away from him. One of those things may have been the emasculation of CB, if it was post-mortem. TH worked in a slaughter house for several years in his younger life, so I don't think he would have been too squeamish to do that. If the emasculation was ante-mortem, it's a whole different story. I agree that even TH wouldn't do that.
FWIW, I once read that flesh flies prefer ante-mortem wounds over post-mortem wounds to lay their eggs in. Larvae were found in CB's eyes and nostrils, but not in his groin area. That could indicate that that wound was post-mortem, but it's not very solid.

Yeah, I've thought about his slaughterhouse experience. I'd disagree that this experience would make him able to inflict that particular injury (an animal is one thing). There's no real way to prove this experience would "help" him one way or the other, but I can understand why you'd think that and I won't fault you for it.

I'm wondering what your thoughts are of the wounds on the left side of SB -- do you think those wounds were also inflicted post-mortem? I don't know if you've seen the photo (and, you might not even have to), but to me, they are identical to the wounds on CB's thighs. Wouldn't it be safe to say that, if you think the genital wound was post-mortem, then this facial wound would also be post-mortem? The one thing they both share, is that they are by far the 2 most gruesome wounds on any of the victims.

 

[Cher Lockhomes]

Lethalmatthew wrote:

One of those things may have been the emasculation of CB, if it was post-mortem. TH worked in a slaughter house for several years in his younger life, so I don't think he would have been too squeamish to do that. If the emasculation was ante-mortem, it's a whole different story. I agree that even TH wouldn't do that.

LM, my answer in the Evidence thread, don't want to keep on derailing this thread.