Ramsey Clothing Journey

Well, unless I BECOME PSYCHIC and Patsy decides to give me the facts from "the other side", I doubt we'll ever truly know what they were thinking that night, but one thing that might have been a factor for them which may have been mentioned, but I'm playing "catch up" backwards again:

The lights were in all probability not turned on that night, or at least, none of the neighbors noticed. One neighbor DID notice the usual lights weren't on, as well, in one or two locations, if memory serves, one being the outside garage lighting, the other an inside light. That neighbor also noticed "odd lights" inside the home, which I can only imagine came from the flashlight moving along. This was after the Ramseys came home, I think, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

It's been debated many times, of course, and IDIs have said maybe the Christmas tree lights all over the house were enough, and it was Christmas, so they didn't bother as they were going to bed, etc. We certainly have no answers for this, other than the vague forgetfulness of the Ramseys, who wouldn't tell us the truth anyway, if they did this.

All by way of saying, what if they were using only the flashlight? In the basement, which of course would have been very dark?

I keep thinking about Burke and his Nintendo 64 which he got that Christmas. Children from the 'hood came over and they played Burke's games in his room, Patsy said, while JonBenet played with her beads in the hall and Patsy joined her at some point. Any of you been around kids who play video games? Back in '96? They get really stressed. But they would play them until they passed out if parents didn't make them stop. And it was Christmas. No school the next day, could sleep on the plane....

See, one thing I know: you had to use a TV to play those video games. Did Burke have a TV in his room? I don't remember seeing one in the pics I've seen of his room, I'll look again. JonBenet had a TV in her room. JAR had a TV in his room. In fact, Patsy was asked about that room by Haney, looking at the pics, and she mentioned the video tapes lying in the floor, in front of the TV furniture, saying that was "strange" or something like that.

I guess I am thinking of the "letter" an older friend of JonBenet's wrote to the National Enquirer a few years ago, "remembering" JonBenet. The writer is Judith Phillips' daughter, who played with JonBenet and who said in the letter that she and JonBenet teased Burke about his videogame playing by turning it off and making him lose his hard earned placement in the game. Then Burke chased them to a bathroom and beat on the door, she said, while they laughed about it. If you have seen even docile children getting frustrated playing these sometimes very difficult games, you can imagine the scene quite easily.

Now, this may have nothing to do with the murder. It's just that of all the theories that I work, thinking of Patsy and John as these loving parents who would never do such a thing...means the evidence leads to someone ELSE being a central part of the violence and/or molestation and them covering up for it. That leaves only a few choices in any analysis of the crimes.

So...thinking about the lights...the "wrong" Bloomies ending up on the body in the basement...if the initial crime of the head blow took place upstairs, then taking the body downstairs with the flashlight might confine them enough to use the Bloomies simply for convenience, and the fact that they were new, the right day, etc., was only much the better for it.

Remember, Burke's fingerprints were on the bowl of pineapple. Maybe he was up playing his game, maybe JonBenet woke up and found him. Maybe they went downstairs because they were hungry. Maybe then they continued playing for an hour, during which time the pineapple was digested, and then they got grouchy and into a sibling fight...and BAM!

Yes, the sash for the curtain behind the window was in disarray. Clothes everywhere. Hair ties strewn around the floor. Large diapers hanging out of the laundry cabinet outside that room. Drawers hurriedly left open in JAR's bathroom and JonBenet's bathroom. The pillow at the foot of JonBenet's bed.

It just seems to me that there was a lot of action in that area that the Ramseys and Smit question.

Burke laid in bed awake, hearing his mother and father, but even when they came in, he pretended to be asleep.

"What did you find?"

"We didn't mean for this to happen."

You know, I really hope this is not what happened. The man's harsh tone of voice, the childlike pleading voice.... If I knew this is what happened, even though I would still think they made terrible, selfish choices which hurt innocent people terribly, I'd probably finally feel very sorry for the Ramseys and say no more.

But it's just another version, or the same version, of one of a thousand theories.... No way to know, really.

KoldKase,
Interesting thoughts. The link to JAR's room might be relevant in some way, think on all the stuff moved from JAR's rom down to the basement, so if there was no tv in Burke's room, maybe he was using JAR's room?

I rank a BDI as fourth after JDI, PDI and JPDI. So maybe Burke whacked JonBenet as he had done before, but possibly the staging is forced upon whichever parent is abusing JonBenet? So rather than it appearing as an act of a protective parent, maybe self interest plays a larger role?



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Ames,

Well you read and heard wrong, nobody has said all of JonBenet's underwear was stained only those from her bedroom dresser drawer, this is quoted from Holly Smith, check this thread for the full text.


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Regardless...even washed panties could have fibers from other clothes on them..unless all of the panties were washed separately. I still believe, regardless if she had fresh, clean, washed, undies in another drawer or not...the Ramsey's were very afraid that they would have fibers on them. Patsy wouldn't have remembered if say...she or the housekeeper had washed JB's size 6 panties..with maybe that turtleneck shirt that Patsy wore to the White's for example. They wanted to eliminate the possibility of any of their fibers being on JB...especially in or on the panties, which were covered by the longjohns. Any other fiber evidence could have been explained away...like John picking up her body and carrying it upstairs/ by transference. Fibers on her panties..if they belonged to one of the Ramsey's would have been easy to explain away...in Patsy's mind. This...IMO...and because we know that these size 12's were brand new and not stained...is the reason for the size 12's being placed on her. IMO
 
When do you think the longjohns were put on her?

I think her mother put the longjnohns on her when they got home, just as she said, OVER whatever panties (her OWN panties) she wore that day. I think the longjohns were taken off for whatever happened next to cause the vaginal injuries, and when she bled the original panties became stained with blood and were discarded. Then she was wiped down and redressed in the size 12s. Then the long johns were put back on her again. Some drops of blood seeped unseen onto the size 12s, but not enough to stain through to the longjohns and the stagers were unaware of the blood stains on the panties.
I maintain that JBR had only ONE panty drawer, in her bathroom. I recall an interview where PR said that her she had a panty DRAWER in the bathroom, and I think an intruder would never have known that. I recall that in a interview with LE, PR was being shown photos of her own bathroom as well as JBR's, and she was telling LE that she kept her own underwear in drawers in her bathroom/dressing room and not in the bedroom dresser. Actually it does make sense- if you have built -in drawers in your bathroom it is a more logical place to keep underwear, handy as you come out of the shower or tub.
 
Just a question for anyone.

LJs, to the extent I'm familiar with them, fit rather snuggly against the body, including the ankles. At least this will be true if they have elastic around the ankles -and many (probably most?) LJs do.

So, if she was undressed and redressed by the "intruder" won't that some touch dna be on the ankle bands, just like it's on the waist band?

I suppose they could be pulled off w/o touching the ankle bands - one would have to pretty much turn them inside out in the process. It would be very difficult to turn them right side out and get them back on her w/o touching the ankle bands.

Does anyone know if the LJs in question had elastic at the ankles? I won't hold my breath waiting for Mary Lacy to have them tested. If we found the same dna again, I'd start to really consider IDI.
 
I think her mother put the longjnohns on her when they got home, just as she said, OVER whatever panties (her OWN panties) she wore that day. I think the longjohns were taken off for whatever happened next to cause the vaginal injuries, and when she bled the original panties became stained with blood and were discarded. Then she was wiped down and redressed in the size 12s. Then the long johns were put back on her again. Some drops of blood seeped unseen onto the size 12s, but not enough to stain through to the longjohns and the stagers were unaware of the blood stains on the panties.
I maintain that JBR had only ONE panty drawer, in her bathroom. I recall an interview where PR said that her she had a panty DRAWER in the bathroom, and I think an intruder would never have known that. I recall that in a interview with LE, PR was being shown photos of her own bathroom as well as JBR's, and she was telling LE that she kept her own underwear in drawers in her bathroom/dressing room and not in the bedroom dresser. Actually it does make sense- if you have built -in drawers in your bathroom it is a more logical place to keep underwear, handy as you come out of the shower or tub.

DeeDee249,
I think her mother put the longjnohns on her when they got home, just as she said,
Which according to Patsy was as she was being placed asleep into her bed. So do you think JonBenet then awoke and decided to have an impromptu pineapple snack?

I maintain that JBR had only ONE panty drawer, in her bathroom.
So what are you maintaining: JonBenet had one and only one panty drawer in the whole house, or only one panty drawer in her bathroom?
 
Just a question for anyone.

LJs, to the extent I'm familiar with them, fit rather snuggly against the body, including the ankles. At least this will be true if they have elastic around the ankles -and many (probably most?) LJs do.

So, if she was undressed and redressed by the "intruder" won't that some touch dna be on the ankle bands, just like it's on the waist band?

I suppose they could be pulled off w/o touching the ankle bands - one would have to pretty much turn them inside out in the process. It would be very difficult to turn them right side out and get them back on her w/o touching the ankle bands.

Does anyone know if the LJs in question had elastic at the ankles? I won't hold my breath waiting for Mary Lacy to have them tested. If we found the same dna again, I'd start to really consider IDI.

Chrishope,
From memory I think they had ankle bands, but maybe thats me going by pictures. Anyway, good point, ankle band or not maybe JonBenet's redresser handled the ankles so to pull them on?

Yes the more the dna is distributed, particularly onto other crime-scene objects, then the more likely there was a non-ramsey involved.


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Regardless...even washed panties could have fibers from other clothes on them..unless all of the panties were washed separately. I still believe, regardless if she had fresh, clean, washed, undies in another drawer or not...the Ramsey's were very afraid that they would have fibers on them. Patsy wouldn't have remembered if say...she or the housekeeper had washed JB's size 6 panties..with maybe that turtleneck shirt that Patsy wore to the White's for example. They wanted to eliminate the possibility of any of their fibers being on JB...especially in or on the panties, which were covered by the longjohns. Any other fiber evidence could have been explained away...like John picking up her body and carrying it upstairs/ by transference. Fibers on her panties..if they belonged to one of the Ramsey's would have been easy to explain away...in Patsy's mind. This...IMO...and because we know that these size 12's were brand new and not stained...is the reason for the size 12's being placed on her. IMO

Ames,
They wanted to eliminate the possibility of any of their fibers being on JB...especially in or on the panties, which were covered by the longjohns.
Patsy is on record stating she redressed JonBenet in the longjohns, so if JonBenet wore those size-12's to the White's then you might expect some of Patsy's fibers to be on JonBenet?

Anyway why would fibers on the size-6's matter, they would be expected, all Patsy needs to say is they must have got there when I put JonBenet's longjohns on?


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Ames,

Patsy is on record stating she redressed JonBenet in the longjohns, so if JonBenet wore those size-12's to the White's then you might expect some of Patsy's fibers to be on JonBenet?

Anyway why would fibers on the size-6's matter, they would be expected, all Patsy needs to say is they must have got there when I put JonBenet's longjohns on?


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How would Patsy's fibers have gotten into the inside (say the crotch area)? That is not so easy to explain away. I still believe that the size 12's were chosen...not because they were size 12's, that makes NO sense...but, because they were brand spanking new...never washed (so fibers from other clothes wouldn't be on them), and no stains.

DeeDee is right...I don't recall another panty drawer (for JB) being anywhere in the house, only in the bathroom. I do believe that some soiled panties were found in JB's room...in a drawer...but, that wasn't her panty drawer. Like, she was embarrassed...or didn't want to tell her mom, or whatever...and hid them. (A sign of molestation...I have to add).
 
The question of Patsy wearing the jacket while making or helping make the garrote is an interesting one. Why would she be wearing her jacket in the house at all while readying for a trip and getting everyone to bed?

John says the basement was hot, and that's why the window was often cracked down there where Patsy smoked...is that right?

But John could have lied, of course, because...well...he has lied quite a bit in this case. I don't have a lot of experience with huge, three story homes, but what I do have with homes with multiple floors is that upstairs is naturally warmer because heat rises. It was Boulder, in winter. But on the other hand, the furnace and ducts were in the basement. So I guess you'd have to have been there and noticed to know what the truth is on this.

All by way of saying I've wondered if Patsy put the jacket on because it was cold down there...?

On the other hand, if she had on her sweater she wore under the jacket, or was it her red turtleneck which she wore under the jacket, or a sweater--so hard to keep up with Patsy's fashion sense, she could have many fibers from the jacket transferred onto those and then transferred to the cord and knots.

Or...if Patsy indeed did dress JonBenet in bed with her jacket on, which the Ramsey story of carrying JonBenet directly upstairs from the car asleep fits that, then she easily transferred the jacket fibers onto JonBenet's clothes and bedclothes, and that's why the fibers in the garrote knots were not enough to convict because they could have come from secondary transfer like this.

So even if Patsy had on her gown and helped make or made the garrote, the fibers could still have come from her jacket...couldn't they?
Another possible scenario is that Patsy took the jacket off shortly before staging the scene because panic made her break out in a sweat and she yanked it off. As she did this, fibers from the jacket could have stuck to her hands or her fingernails, thus getting transferred to the incriminating locations where they were later found.
 
DeeDee249,

Which according to Patsy was as she was being placed asleep into her bed. So do you think JonBenet then awoke and decided to have an impromptu pineapple snack?


So what are you maintaining: JonBenet had one and only one panty drawer in the whole house, or only one panty drawer in her bathroom?

I think JBR MAY have fallen asleep in the car, woke up as they got home, and walked into the house, just like BR said she did. Then, PR got her ready for bed, pulling off her black velvet jeans and pulling on the longjohns, leaving on the white Gap top she wore to the White's. I don't think she was placed sleep in her bed and remained there. This lends itself more to an IDI theory, with her asleep until the "intruder" took her from her bed.
I believe she was awake, walked into the house, was dressed for bed, stayed up to have a pineapple snack provided by PR, possibly with BR.

Yes, I maintain there was only one panty drawer in the house for JBR- the one in her bathroom drawers. I have seen bathrooms that have "closet systems" and built-ins in their bathrooms, where drawers for underwear and lingerie are put in bathrooms because they are handier there. The R house may have had built-ins like that; the master bedroom was an addition, as was the entire back section where JBR's bedroom was. So her bathroom apparently had those built-in drawers as well.
 
I think JBR MAY have fallen asleep in the car, woke up as they got home, and walked into the house, just like BR said she did. Then, PR got her ready for bed, pulling off her black velvet jeans and pulling on the longjohns, leaving on the white Gap top she wore to the White's. I don't think she was placed sleep in her bed and remained there. This lends itself more to an IDI theory, with her asleep until the "intruder" took her from her bed.
I believe she was awake, walked into the house, was dressed for bed, stayed up to have a pineapple snack provided by PR, possibly with BR.

Yes, I maintain there was only one panty drawer in the house for JBR- the one in her bathroom drawers. I have seen bathrooms that have "closet systems" and built-ins in their bathrooms, where drawers for underwear and lingerie are put in bathrooms because they are handier there. The R house may have had built-ins like that; the master bedroom was an addition, as was the entire back section where JBR's bedroom was. So her bathroom apparently had those built-in drawers as well.

When my husband and I first married...100 years ago...LOL, we had an apartment in Tampa, FL like that. You walked into the closet, and then there was the door to the bathroom. I hated it at first, because all of our wire hangers rusted and ruined our clothes, from the steam. But, you are right..it sure was handy..and made sense. I liked it better though, after we bought plastic hangers for everything.
 

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