Random things about this case...

[claudicici]

Yes,a lot f times I imagine being there during that time frame...imagine all the rumors,all the talk....and it started so early into the investigation,I bet by the fifth day after the murders the whole town thought Damien was guilty,I can just imagine all the gossip among the teens,all the frightened children.....and then they let all this gossip and rumors into their investigation,encouraged it ,molded it into their desired outcome,aargh,how could that have happened in the 90's? It frightens me to think how many times this happens and the public does not hear about it.
And I agree,if I heard about the case superficially ,heard about there were multiple confessions etc,I would think they were guilty also.
I just don't understand why people who read these ridiculous statements for themselves,that read how the investigation was handled,the questions that were asked,how can they still believe they are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt?
....the non supporters can't seem to get over Damien's mental health record,I just don't get it.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Yes,a lot f times I imagine being there during that time frame...imagine all the rumors,all the talk....and it started so early into the investigation,I bet by the fifth day after the murders the whole town thought Damien was guilty,I can just imagine all the gossip among the teens,all the frightened children.....and then they let all this gossip and rumors into their investigation,encouraged it ,molded it into their desired outcome,aargh,how could that have happened in the 90's? It frightens me to think how many times this happens and the public does not hear about it.
And I agree,if I heard about the case superficially ,heard about there were multiple confessions etc,I would think they were guilty also.
I just don't understand why people who read these ridiculous statements for themselves,that read how the investigation was handled,the questions that were asked,how can they still believe they are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt?
....the non supporters can't seem to get over Damien's mental health record,I just don't get it.

BBM

The worst part of that is that mental health records are not kept with the intent of serving as evidence in a court of law. Much of what is contained in Echols mental health records are stories he told, or second hand information provided by family members. If you track down the truth (and trust me, that's a task!), you very often find that the medical records are way off base from what actually happened. A troubled kid's fanciful account of being Harry Houdini and grabbing a cop's gun, morphs into "threatened to kill girlfriend's father". A story about another patient cutting himself and Damien sucking the blood becomes, " jumped on a boy, bit his neck and drank his blood". And then, of course, people read these "records" and assume they must be factual because hey...they're medical records.

It's just nuts (no pun intended).

 

[jaleigh]

Yes,a lot f times I imagine being there during that time frame...imagine all the rumors,all the talk....and it started so early into the investigation,I bet by the fifth day after the murders the whole town thought Damien was guilty,I can just imagine all the gossip among the teens,all the frightened children.....and then they let all this gossip and rumors into their investigation,encouraged it ,molded it into their desired outcome,aargh,how could that have happened in the 90's? It frightens me to think how many times this happens and the public does not hear about it.
And I agree,if I heard about the case superficially ,heard about there were multiple confessions etc,I would think they were guilty also.
I just don't understand why people who read these ridiculous statements for themselves,that read how the investigation was handled,the questions that were asked,how can they still believe they are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt?
....the non supporters can't seem to get over Damien's mental health record,I just don't get it.

bbm

I think the nons don't as you said "get over Damien's mental health" because they have nothing else to gripe about. lol
mo

 

[Compassionate Reader]

bbm

I think the nons don't as you said "get over Damien's mental health" because they have nothing else to gripe about. lol
mo

IMO, they are getting pretty desperate! All the State has on the WMFree - all the State ever had on them - is Jessie's flawed statements. Two attorneys, Stidham and Rosenweig (hope I spelled that right!) have commented on his suggestibility. His statements would have been destroyed in any retrial. Damien's mental health issues are much the same. What the nons fail to mention is that the defense introduced Exhibit 500 (The Non Bible) in an effort to either get his sentence reduced or to even possibly get a new trial. Since Burnett didn't feel that Exhibit 500 proved that Damien wasn't sane, I guess it really doesn't carry the weight that the nons want to place on it, right?

 

[jaleigh]

IMO, they are getting pretty desperate! All the State has on the WMFree - all the State ever had on them - is Jessie's flawed statements. Two attorneys, Stidham and Rosenweig (hope I spelled that right!) have commented on his suggestibility. His statements would have been destroyed in any retrial. Damien's mental health issues are much the same. What the nons fail to mention is that the defense introduced Exhibit 500 (The Non Bible) in an effort to either get his sentence reduced or to even possibly get a new trial. Since Burnett didn't feel that Exhibit 500 proved that Damien wasn't sane, I guess it really doesn't carry the weight that the nons want to place on it, right?

bbm

Right!imo.

 

[twall]

This case came to my attention prior to the 1st documentary. My father, had moved from California to AR several years before the murder occurred. The case was big there even before it went national. My father, a brilliant man by the way, initially believed the 3 were guilty. When I saw the documentary a few years later, I was floored. I called my Dad and said, "Hey, how come you never mentioned this or never mentioned that?". He had no clue what I was talking about. He'd read every news article about the case, had followed it very closely, and he'd never heard ANY of the issues with the case that I was asking him about. The news media presented what they wanted to present, the state cobbled together fantasy and bad evidence to create a "story", and people repeated half truths or outright lies as fact. That was what you had to go on with this case. Once my father saw the documentary, and did alot of digging into the facts, he did a complete 180. But if all he had to go on was the local media, the state, and local talk, he'd have died believing the Three were guilty.

My point in repeated all this is really just to say: I've come to find a place of patience with those who believe the WM3 are guilty. Unless you take the time to go over a mountain of evidence with a fine tooth comb, it's pretty easy to say hey, Jason Baldwin was found with a necklace that had one of the kids blood on it, or Jesse Misskelley had knowledge of the crime that no-one else had, or Damien confessed to several people, or so and so found a bloody stick in the closet of the trailer Echols used to live in. It's all hogwash, of course, but even hogwash will start to paint a picture if it all starts adding up and you never question any of it.

JMO (no offense intended towards those who are non-supporters)

I can relate to your dad's way of thinking. I am a big true crime buff and purchased "Blood of Innocents" shortly after it was released. That was my introduction the case. If one reads the book I don't see how they can conclude the 3 convicted are not guilty. I thought they were psycho sickos to do that to 3 children. Shortly after that PL came out and I watched it. Soon after I got my first PC and internet service and looked into what was on the internet about the case. As I read and discovered more information on the case my view of them changed to not guilty, not psycho and not sickos!

I am glad they are out but I would be lying if I said I wasn't looking forward to the December hearing and I understand why they took the plea. I would do the same thing and get the hell out of Arkansas and never look back! Now I am looking forward to seeing PL3 and will have HBO turned on just for it.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

I still have high hopes that the information that the defense would have presented in December will eventually be made public. It will have to if the fight to get the three exonerated is to continue. As to the media, etc. sometimes I believe that we Americans are too bound up in a right to know. Sometimes our right to know can severely taint a jury pool. The media are only providing what the public demands - the lurid details of every crime and scandal that comes along. No offense to anyone in the media.

The problem with the media in this case is that they were taking their "facts" from the police and prosecution. I'm still very uncomfortable about so much in this case, but the main thing that makes me uncomfortable is why the WMPD never considered Terry Hobbs as a suspect. Gitchell stated in his Pasdar deposition that the first thing that should be done in a case like this is to clear all parents. This was not done, IMO, especially in the case of Terry Hobbs. You don't even have to suspect that he is the most likely perpetrator of these murders, as I do, to realize that the lack of investigation into him is highly irregular to say the least.

I also agree that they should all leave Arkansas and never return. IMO, Damien and Jason have already done so. Jessie is more comfortable with family right now, but I'm hopeful that he will leave soon. Maybe when he and Susie marry (and I understand that they plan to tie the knot on August 19, 2012) she will be able to get him away from Arkansas, at least into Memphis, TN. Although not perfect, that would be infinitely better IMO.

BTW, I learned that he is enrolling in GED classes on September 12, 2011, at the local community college. I hope that he is able to complete the program because a high school diploma will be very beneficial to him right now. It will be hard enough for him to get a job with a murder conviction on his record, but without a high school diploma, his prospects are even slimmer.

 

[Satch]

How many of you thought or think that Damian could have been involved? But NOT Jason or Jessie? I don't base this on his looks, but there have and continue to be things about Damian Echols that I don't trust. His conduct, his actions in interviews, his answering of questions. Note that I feel the same way about Mark Byers, and with the new DNA evidence of Terry Hobbs at the crime scene, suspicious of him as well.

There's a distrust of three people IMO. Not enough for a conviction beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law. However, an uneasy feeling of distrust. I think that knowing the almost religious fanatical beliefs of a small town community, with Byers looking and acting, for lack of a more tactful term, like such a bible-thumping redneck, (at least when the cameras are rolling.) and Damian looking like he's ready to take the lead in the next Omen movie. That is such a powerful and emotional impact for many people. I'm sorry, but when you have that kind of fuel to a small town fire who's believes are generated in back-woods type superstition and propaganda, wouldn't you want to do everything and anything in your power to NOT draw negative attention to yourself?

Byers and Echols added fuel to a fire that has never gone out. And to name your kid "Damian" in such a superstitious and almost Salem Practicing community is creating such grief, pain, and stereotypes that could have been avoided. If all these people are indeed innocent, they sure built a huge amount of speculation to a superstitious town!

Perhaps due to lack of money or qualified council, the rights of these people to be fairly tried and judged was never made available to them. However, the accused could have done SOME things to help themselves. A haircut for Damien, and NOT dressing like some Satanic Devil Worshiper, and Byers NOT acting like a red-neck buffoon in front of the cameras, just MIGHT have made the WM3 innocent in a court of law, and Mr. Byers more accepting within the community.

The actions and mannerisms of individuals like Damian Echols and Mark Byers said to this jury, 'Well, if it walks like a duck, acts like a duck, and swims like a duck, with the duck being the belief of suspicion in these killings." With so much of the defense evidence not known, or kept out of the first trial, these juries, spurred on by the powerful sensationalized rituals of what these people represented to them, I believe were forced to convict the WM3, and still accuse Mark Byers of some involvement with this case in a negative way to this day.

Satch

 

[Pensfan]

I still have high hopes that the information that the defense would have presented in December will eventually be made public. It will have to if the fight to get the three exonerated is to continue. As to the media, etc. sometimes I believe that we Americans are too bound up in a right to know. Sometimes our right to know can severely taint a jury pool. The media are only providing what the public demands - the lurid details of every crime and scandal that comes along. No offense to anyone in the media.

The problem with the media in this case is that they were taking their "facts" from the police and prosecution. I'm still very uncomfortable about so much in this case, but the main thing that makes me uncomfortable is why the WMPD never considered Terry Hobbs as a suspect. Gitchell stated in his Pasdar deposition that the first thing that should be done in a case like this is to clear all parents. This was not done, IMO, especially in the case of Terry Hobbs. You don't even have to suspect that he is the most likely perpetrator of these murders, as I do, to realize that the lack of investigation into him is highly irregular to say the least.

I also agree that they should all leave Arkansas and never return. IMO, Damien and Jason have already done so. Jessie is more comfortable with family right now, but I'm hopeful that he will leave soon. Maybe when he and Susie marry (and I understand that they plan to tie the knot on August 19, 2012) she will be able to get him away from Arkansas, at least into Memphis, TN. Although not perfect, that would be infinitely better IMO.

BTW, I learned that he is enrolling in GED classes on September 12, 2011, at the local community college. I hope that he is able to complete the program because a high school diploma will be very beneficial to him right now. It will be hard enough for him to get a job with a murder conviction on his record, but without a high school diploma, his prospects are even slimmer.

How can he enroll in community college classes (requires money for transportation, books, and etc...) when he can't come up with $300 to have his electricity turned on? Illogical.

Here is more illogical statements from your post: For the past three weeks you have been insisting that Terry Hobbs is the real murderer and is a really disgusting, unlikable creature. Now you are insinuating that someone fudged the investigation in favor of Terry Hobbs. If Terry is so horrific and unlikable, why would detectives perform a highly irregular/nonexistent investigation of him? Illogical.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Knowing teenagers as I do, I have never suspected Damien or any of the WMFree. I did suspect JMB for a time, and then I realized that I was reacting like the uneducated people who suspected Damien because of the way he acted. IMO, before accusing someone of participating in a murder, there needs to be more evidence than their strange actions at a time when they were under a great deal of stress.

Both Mark and Damien now readily admit that their actions did nothing to remove the suspicions that were there. However, suspicions alone are not enough. You need evidence. The only physical evidence that can be adequately linked to someone in this case is the hairs and footprints found at the discovery ditch. These items cannot be linked to either Damien or Mark.

As to Damien's name, he was born Michael Wayne Hutchinson. When his mother married Jack Echols, her new husband adopted Damien. Damien changed his name when he was interested in the Roman Catholic Church. It is in honor of Father Damien, soon to be sanctified by the Church for his work with the lepers in Hawaii.

 

[Pensfan]

Byers and Echols added fuel to a fire that has never gone out. And to name your kid "Damian" in such a superstitious and almost Salem Practicing community is creating such grief, pain, and stereotypes that could have been avoided. If all these people are indeed innocent, they sure built a huge amount of speculation to a superstitious town!

Respectfully shortened-
Damien changed his own name to Damien in his early teens. He held the name Michael Wayne Hutchison before changing his name.

 

[Pensfan]

Knowing teenagers as I do, I have never suspected Damien or any of the WMFree. I did suspect JMB for a time, and then I realized that I was reacting like the uneducated people who suspected Damien because of the way he acted. IMO, before accusing someone of participating in a murder, there needs to be more evidence than their strange actions at a time when they were under a great deal of stress.

Both Mark and Damien now readily admit that their actions did nothing to remove the suspicions that were there. However, suspicions alone are not enough. You need evidence. The only physical evidence that can be adequately linked to someone in this case is the hairs and footprints found at the discovery ditch. These items cannot be linked to either Damien or Mark.

As to Damien's name, he was born Michael Wayne Hutchinson. When his mother married Jack Echols, her new husband adopted Damien. Damien changed his name when he was interested in the Roman Catholic Church. It is in honor of Father Damien, soon to be sanctified by the Church for his work with the lepers in Hawaii.

Damien changed his name to Damien after his mom married Echols when he LEFT Roman Catholicism and began his interests in other "religions" which including Wicca aka Pagan Witchcraft (Wikipedia's definition).

 

[Compassionate Reader]

How can he enroll in community college classes (requires money for transportation, books, and etc...) when he can't come up with $300 to have his electricity turned on? Illogical.

Here is more illogical statements from your post: For the past three weeks you have been insisting that Terry Hobbs is the real murderer and is a really disgusting, unlikable creature. Now you are insinuating that someone fudged the investigation in favor of Terry Hobbs. If Terry is so horrific and unlikable, why would detectives perform a highly irregular/nonexistent investigation of him? Illogical.

The GED classes and supplies are not overly expensive, and I'm sure that there are plenty of friends/supporters who will contribute so that Jessie can take these classes, just as they came up with the $300 he needed to get his electricity turned on, too. Helping Jessie to get his GED is akin to the old story about teaching a man to fish instead of giving him a fish. He will be much less dependent when he has a high school diploma.

Please look at the portion of your quote in bold above. This is confusing to me as it appears that you're saying that it was illogical to investigate Terry H at the time. I'm sorry, but I don't understand your reasoning there.

If you're asking why they didn't investigate Terry back in '93, that's something that many of us have speculated about for quite some time now. That I would agree is highly illogical. IMO, there are a lot of possibilities, most of which you will find thoroughly disgusting and all of which are pure speculation. The best answer that I could give you would be that he knew something incriminating about something or someone in the WMPD.

The point is that, even though Gary G said in his deposition in the Pasdar suit that in a case like this, the first thing that must be done is to clear all the parents, Terry H was never questioned by the WMPD until 2004. JMB was questioned, thoroughly. Todd M was considered above suspicion as he was out of town. Terry H got a free pass. That is totally illogical.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Damien changed his name to Damien after his mom married Echols when he LEFT Roman Catholicism and began his interests in other "religions" which including Wicca aka Pagan Witchcraft (Wikipedia's definition).

Since he never officially joined the Catholic Church, saying that he left it is slightly misleading. He was interested in several religions. He still has an interest in religions that are out of the main stream. The Catholic Church was the only main stream religion that ever interested him, and the name change was in honor of the Catholic priest, Father Damien, who was famous for working with the lepers in Hawaii and who is on the path to sainthood. Damien stated on the stand during his trial that his name change was in honor of Father Damien.

ETA: Here's his testimony from the trial regarding his name change:

Q: What name were you born with?

A: Michael Wayne Hutchison

Q: Who were your natural mother and father?

A: Pamela Joyce Hutchison and Edward Joe Hutchison

Q: And was there a certain period of time that your father left and then your mom married Jack Echols?

A: Yes.

Q: And then, was there a time after that that you changed your name?

A: Yes.

Q: Alright. Why did you change your name.

A: Because I was adopted by Jack Echols.

Q: OK. So that's why your last name changed. How about your first name?

A: First name - at the time of the adoption, I was very involved in the Catholic church, and we were going over different names of the saints. St. Michael's was where I went to church at. And we heard about this guy from the Hawaiian Islands, Father Damian, that took care of lepers until he finally caught the disease hisself and died.

Q: Was that the reason you chose "Damien" as your first name?

A: Yes, it is.

Q: Did the choosing of the name "Damien" have anything to do with any type of horror movies, Satanism, cultism, anything of that nature?

A: Nothing whatsoever.


http://www.callahan.8k.com/wm3/damien1.html

Please note the part in bold. It appears that he was still interested in the Catholic Church when he changed his first name. It appears that the name change occurred when he was adopted by Jack Echols.

 

[Pensfan]

Damien admitted that he studied and looked into the satanic side of the occult, and stated he was very familiar with it. There are more than 10,000 Roman Catholic saints and beatified people......... and Damien Echols chose a name, Damien, but from the horror movie, The Omen. One of the Omen's character, Damien, had qualities that Damien Echols told psychiatrist, Dr. George Wood, that he also possessed. Damien believed he had been visited by demons since the age of 9. Damien Echols believed he had special powers. Damien Echols wrote about his "special power" in this frightening poem:
http://callahan.8k.com/images2/d_echols/de_poem.JPG

Damien Echol's poem:
I know just where you live.
I know you live alone.
I’ll pay a visit in your darkest hour.
I’ve got a treat in store.
Won’t be the same no more.
And I will demonstrate my holy power.
I see through what it is inside you.
I’ll make you break down and cry.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

In the previous quote, from Damien himself, he explains where he got his name, and it was not from the horror movie, The Omen, as much as you would like it to be. Yes, when he was a teenager, he wrote some dark poetry. A lot of teenagers wrote dark poetry. That doesn't make him a murderer.

 

[Pensfan]

In the previous quote, from Damien himself, he explains where he got his name, and it was not from the horror movie, The Omen, as much as you would like it to be. Yes, when he was a teenager, he wrote some dark poetry. A lot of teenagers wrote dark poetry. That doesn't make him a murderer.

You can't have it both ways. You previously declared that what Damien said and wrote was not the truth.

When I posted and provided evidence that Damien wrote TWICE that he was homicidal before the murders, you declared that this was a "white lie" told by Damien.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

You can't have it both ways. You previously declared that what Damien said and wrote was not the truth.

When I posted and provided evidence that Damien wrote TWICE that he was homicidal before the murders, you declared that this was a "white lie" told by Damien.

I'm not "having it both ways." I'm saying that his writing was a form of "acting out," a defense mechanism to protect his ego. I don't care how many times he wrote it, it doesn't make it true.

 

[claudicici]

In the previous quote, from Damien himself, he explains where he got his name, and it was not from the horror movie, The Omen, as much as you would like it to be. Yes, when he was a teenager, he wrote some dark poetry. A lot of teenagers wrote dark poetry. That doesn't make him a murderer.

mmmmhhhh.....as Lunatic previously mentioned the "frightening" poem is actually Ozzy Osbourne lyrics :crazy:

 

[claudicici]

Here's a poem Damien actually wrote:


FIRST LOVE

In those days you were something
felt but not seen
as you handed me love letters
written in dead languages.

The chain link fence behind me
made cold diamonds on my back
and your head was on my shoulder
with only one breath between us.

Your hair against my face
smelled like woodsmoke and chocolate,
your lust was raw and new,
as jagged and dangerous as rocks beneath the waves.

Now I’m trapped here like a ghost
haunting places that no longer exist,
feeding on frost and hummingbirds
during long November nights.