Ransom

[Richard]

What made LE believe the call "may" have come from a bus station? I am assuming that the ransom call was not recorded, but I wonder how much detail of the conversation Mr. Lyon was able to have documented by investigators.?.

We do not know the absolute answer to your questions, but two possibilities come to mind regarding why LE might have concluded that the second ransom call might might have been from a bus station:

First, it is possible that background noises could be heard which sounded like a bus or a bus terminal.

Second, it is possible that LE had placed the Lyon family phone on some sort of monitoring equipment after the initial ransom call and might have run a trace during the last call which followed the failed ransom drop.

 

[siriunsun]

Wasn't the call made to the radio station?

 

[Richard]

Wasn't the call made to the radio station?

No, it was made to the Lyon home. John Lyon was on a leave of absence from WMAL for a while following the girls' disappearance. The day of the ransom drop in Annapolis, John Lyon and one of the MCP police chiefs were both in Annapolis. Nobody attempted to pick up the package which had been placed in the men's room in the Court House. The phone call came in after he returned home that afternoon or evening - according to newspaper stories.

 

[siriunsun]

Interesting. I wonder how the caller knew John Lyon had returned home.......

 

[simplifymylife2014]

Interesting. I wonder how the caller knew John Lyon had returned home.......

Hmmm, could he have known John Lyon or have gone to the same church and knew where he lived and how much time it would take for him to get home from Annapolis?

 

[Backwoods]

I don't know about Lloyd Lee Welch, Jr., but I do know Marshall Dietz appears to have given up because he came to believe by his research and the comments from others that the "real kidnapper" was DeBardeleben and that he was behind the ransom.

He feels sinced they missed accepting that the ransom was real, that DeBardeleben was not caught and went on for many years more in his reign of terror.

I have tried in numerous ways to contact Mr. Dietz.
I feel he may be wrong about DeBardeleben and he needs to come back here to help.

bbm below:

The Ransom Caller has never been identified, so it is anyone's guess as to who he was and what his motives were. There are a number of possibilities, the most prevalent being that it was a hoaxer who jumped in after hearing and reading about the missing girls and who enjoyed taunting the Lyon family and police.

It is possible, however, that he actually did have something to do with the girls' disappearance - or had knowledge of the actual perpetrators, and hoped to either make some quick money, or simply harrass family and police.

DeBardeleben was certainly an evil character who was involved in a wide range of criminal activities. But one would have to question his motives and look at his past behavior to see if making ransom calls or perpetrating hoaxes were something he had done before or after this time frame.

Making a call for any reason, such as to request a reward or ransom, puts the caller in a position of suspicion. It is a risk, because he is calling attention to himself. Obviously, to demand a ransom is to state that you actually have the missing person and can trade her for money. This is true whether or not the caller was actually the kidnapper.

In considering who might have made the ransom calls, consider some of the potential suspects and their behavior. Most would not care to associate themselves openly with any of their crimes or suspected crimes. But there were a few in this case who came to the attention of LE BECAUSE they talked about the Lyon sisters and indicated that they knew something about their disappearance. Those persons would be Raymond Mileski and Lloyd Lee Welch, Jr.

I am not saying positively that either one of them was the ransom caller, only that their personalities and actions were somewhat consistant with the caller in that they both claimed to know something about the case at one time or another.

Milieski was in prison for the 1977 murders of his son and wife and by 1982, the Montgomery County Police had dug up his Suitland, Maryland back yard searching for evidence or bodies because he had allegedly told fellow prison inmates about being involved in the girls' abduction. Then in 2001, he was again offering to talk to MCP about the case in exchange for a prison transfer.

Lloyd Welch, also a prison inmate, is believed to have told a cousin about being at Wheaton Plaza the day the girls went missing, and has been named a Person of Interest by MCP. It is very possible that he called in a tip to MCP back on 1 April 1975, as he told his step mother was his intent. MCP has his Hyattsville address for that date in their files as being given to them by Lloyd.

A potential hoaxer might be the unnamed Prince Georges County man who called MCP claiming to be a Tape Recorder Man seen at Iverson Mall/Marlow Heights Shopping center (but who "Never" did his TRM thing in Montgomery County). He might have been telling the truth or might have been seeking some sort of attention or involvement in the case. Is it possible that he had earlier made the ransom calls?

I am sure that there were quite a number of hoaxers and crank callers in the days and months following the girls disappearance. The Ransom Caller might have been just one of them. Or he might have actually been involved in the girls disappearance and making a rather clumsey attempt to profit by it.

Right now the pointer sure does seem to have swung away from Debardeleben. But ya never know...'til you know for sure.

FWIW, Debardeleben did make some ransom calls. Not sure of the exact time frame, but as I recall it happened in cases where he, sometimes assisted by whomever he was married to at the time, kidnapped a banker's wife, a banker, etc. I do think he made some of the calls himself, and I think the wife may have called in some cases. IIRC, there were at least three or four cases like this. In one, the hostage ended up shot and, I believe, killed. I don't think he was ever convicted on any of these cases -- don't think they ever went to trial or maybe were never even charged, because of all the prison years he racked up otherwise -- but I think the evidence was quite strong, including accounts from the ex-wives involved.

 

[Richard]

We only know for certain about this one Ransom demand and how it played out. Afterward, John Lyon and MCP seemed to believe that it was a cruel hoax perpetrated on the Lyon family.

If there were other ransom calls or attempts, they were never made public.

Investigators today should perhaps re-consider whether or not any of their current theories or persons of interest are connected with ransom calls.

It has been stated that POI Lloyd Welch told his stepmother that he intended to call in a tip to try and collect a $7,000 reward being offered for the return of the Lyon sisters (1 April 1975). Edna Welch has stated that he did, in fact, make that call.

MCP has stated that Lloyd approached a Wheaton Plaza security guard on that day and claimed to have knowledge of the girls entering a car with an unknown man. Police state that he was interviewed, given a polygraph test and was NOT believed. Could a frustrated Lloyd Welch have made the ransom call a few days later?

 

[siriunsun]

Maybe a frustrated Lloyd Welch was unable to borrow his uncle's car or get a ride to Annapolis that day. Metro buses don't travel from DC or the suburbs to Annapolis, and hitchhiking does not guarantee showing up at a certain time and getting away unnoticed. Perhaps a frustrated Lloyd Welch wanted to collect the reward and not share it with accomplices. But.....that's only speculation. It could have been a hoax.

 

[Richard]

In considering Lloyd Welch as a possible Ransom Caller, one has to look at his known actions before and after that time frame.

Lloyd obviously did not think things through on many occasions. A carefully and skillfully planned ransom scheme would almost rule him out automatically. He just was not organized well enough to pull that off.

However, an operation as described in press accounts might have Lloyd's name written all over it. While John Lyon considered the caller to be a moron and the scheme having little chance of succeeding, a guy with Lloyd's mentality and thought process might have considered it a pretty good one. And then was absolutely surprised when he saw that he could not get to the money with all the police around the court house.

Didn't Lloyd do almost exactly the same thing only a few days before? He stated to his stepmother that he intended to call in a tip in hopes of receiving a $7,000 reward (first offered on 1 April 1975). He may have made a phone call to MCP and been blown off or put on hold before going to a Mall Security Guard with his story. Then he tries to tell MCP investigators about what he saw and they determine him to be a liar and write him off.

In Lloyd's crazed imagination, perhaps a "Reward" and a "Ransom" were one and the same. Having been dismissed by Mall Security and by MCP, perhaps he next turned to the Lyon family with his "offer/demand".

It would not have been hard for him to call them. Their address had been stated in the newspapers and their phone number (at the time) was listed in the same phone book that was at his mother's house.

To connect Lloyd with the Ransom scheme, investigators might look at phone records and notes they have in their file on the calls. Certainly some sort of information might have been given by the caller which could verify or authenticate who he was. For example, did the caller mention what the girls were wearing that day? Had their clothing description been publicized at that point? Did he get his info from newspapers or from first hand visual information?

What assurances did he give to indicate that the girls were alive? What was his voice like? Did MCP record the call(s)?

It is very possible that the Ransom caller was just a hoaxer, as long suspected. But with a current Person of Interest like Lloyd Welch, it might be well to consider the possibility that he was that caller.

 

[siriunsun]

Well, he did, in fact, state to several people that he was going to do it. It's possible that he did!

 

[Richard]

Well, he did, in fact, state to several people that he was going to do it. It's possible that he did!

Actually, he stated his intent to call in a tip to police in an attempt to collect the WMAL reward offered on 1 April. His mother stated that he did, in fact, make that call but that she doubted he knew anything. MCP has confirmed that he approached a Wheaton Plaza security guard with the story about being at the mall and seeing the girls abducted, and that they (MCP) were contacted by that guard to come and get Lloyd for an interview.

I do not know if Lloyd ever decided to call the Lyon family and demand "Ransom" or if he ever spoke about such a scheme with anyone.

Someone did call the Lyon family in the first week of April to demand that a ransom of $10,000 be placed at the Anne Arundel Court house mens room in Annapolis, MD. After the drop was made and nobody showed to collect it, the same caller again called John Lyon to complain about there being too many police around. John Lyon asked him, "Well, what did you expect?"

I only suggest this as a possibility because it might have been something Lloyd would have done. We know that he was claiming to know something about the girls's abduction. We know that he wanted to collect money for his information. We know that he had stated his intent to ask for the WMAL reward. I just don't think it that much of a leap for him to make a Ransom call a few days after seeing his hopes for the Reward dashed.

It is possible that Lloyd (if he was the ransom caller) might have simply thought of the Ransom request as another legitimate request for a reward.

The Reward offered was contingent on the girls being safely returned home, but that could have been because police might have found them based on information provided by a witness.

But the implication of it being a Ransom request is that he would have to be able to deliver the girls or tell police exactly where they were - and AT THE SAME TIME not get caught. Demanding Ransom implies that the caller is involved in the abduction, not just a witness.

But then the distinction between Reward and Ransom might have been lost on Lloyd.

 

[simplifymylife2014]

One of the owners of WS mentioned to me about how our focus should be discussing facts about a case on these threads.

In line with that thought, we do KNOW that LLW2 was caught for burglary and EVEN VERY NEAR the Lyon family's home!!

He has shown a PATTERN of desiring money.

 

[siriunsun]

One of the owners of WS mentioned to me about how our focus should be discussing facts about a case on these threads.

In line with that thought, we do KNOW that LLW2 was caught for burglery and EVEN VERY NEAR the Lyon family's home!!

He has shown a PATTERN of desiring money.

Yes, we do know that he was caught, tried, and convicted for burglary. I don't think the house he was caught burglarizing was terribly close to the Lyons' home; in fact, I think it's only relevance to the police is in establishing a time line for LLW for where he was and where he lived over a period of a few years.


Reward money....ransom money; I don't think it mattered to LLW! It's not as if he was going to sit down and do his taxes, or anything legal, such as that! Money was money and as long as he could spend it, I don't think he cared how it was acquired or labeled.