Raven Says . . .

[golfmom]

How tall was Janet? Raven is only 5'11". Not quite a towering kind of guy.

We could probably speculate for days, (and we have been known to do that - LOL!), but for some reason, the ME was not able to make that determination. Therefore, neither can I - so I'm left to assume that it was a possibility that she was hit in the chest before the neck.

Janet was just under 5'6". So he had 5 inches more inches and a lot more bulk on him.

JG, I've searched high and low through the report and cannot find any where that the ME was not able to make that determination. He just noted that he used a numbering system to describe the wounds and that was not indicative of the order the injuries occured.

The left chest cavity should have had substantial blood ... hmmm maybe if she was found laying on her abdomen ? ? ?

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

That's what I'm thinking and reasoning that the chest wound was second. The chest would have to be pretty bloody if stabbed. There are too many organs, veins, arteries, what have you to not bloody.

But if you nick the pericardium, would that stop the heart from pumping blood?

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Janet was just under 5'6". So he had 5 inches more inches and a lot more bulk on him.

You're correct. I was actually editing as you responded. ETA: Nonetheless, the main wound was to the front of the neck. I still don't see how the blade, entering through the front of the neck, could emerge below the collarbone without damaging that bone. And the track was said to be going backwards and down - how would it end up all the way over on the right side?

JG, I've searched high and low through the report and cannot find any where that the ME was not able to make that determination. He just noted that he used a numbering system to describe the wounds and that was not indicative of the order the injuries occured.

Again, you are correct. It does not state outright that the determination could not be made. However, it states that the neck wound was most likely the cause of death. If the chest wound occured after death, I imagine that it would have stated definitively that the neck wound was the cause of death.

 

[golfmom]

EFFECTS OF STABBING
Victim may not initially be aware of injury.
There may be little or no external blood loss.
Internal blood loss may be profuse and rapidly fatal or slow enough to allow time for medical treatment.
Main effect is bleeding. The time taken to incapacitate the victim and what actions are still possible is very difficult to estimate.

A stab to the heart may bleed profusely out into the confined space of the pericardium. If pericardial defect is small or does not communicate with the pleural cavity cardiac tamponade may result (200-450ml). Left ventricular wound may partially reseal, resulting in slow blood loss or spontaneous healing. Thin-walled right ventricle less likely. Great vessels do not re-seal.

http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/llb/woundsdws.htm

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

GM, can you translate the above link into English for me? lol.

 

[golfmom]

http://photobucket.com/albums/y288/Golfmom/?action=view&current=page4.jpg

CAUSE OF DEATH: Stab wound to the neck.

 

[golfmom]

EFFECTS OF STABBING
Victim may not initially be aware of injury.
There may be little or no external blood loss.
Internal blood loss may be profuse and rapidly fatal or slow enough to allow time for medical treatment.
Main effect is bleeding. The time taken to incapacitate the victim and what actions are still possible is very difficult to estimate.

A stab to the heart may bleed profusely out into the confined space of the pericardium. If pericardial defect is small or does not communicate with the pleural cavity cardiac tamponade may result (200-450ml). Left ventricular wound may partially reseal, resulting in slow blood loss or spontaneous healing. Thin-walled right ventricle less likely. Great vessels do not re-seal.

http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/llb/woundsdws.htm

OK, this is very interesting because 1. it shoots down my theory about the pants. It's apparant that this type of injury may have little or no EXTERNAL blood loss. 2. it confirms to me that this injury had to occur after she died since the main effect of a stabbing injury to this area is INTERNAL bleeding.

So, if we have no external bleeding (none on pants) and no internal bleeding as per autopsy ... where's the blood?

 

[Jenifred]

But if you nick the pericardium, would that stop the heart from pumping blood?

As per my husband, no, it wouldn't stop the heart from pumping.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

http://photobucket.com/albums/y288/Golfmom/?action=view&current=page4.jpg

CAUSE OF DEATH: Stab wound to the neck.

The last line of the report says: Death is most likely due to a stab wound to the neck.

 

[golfmom]

As per my husband, no, it wouldn't stop the heart from pumping.

It was described as more than a nick though, it's described as an incision to the pericardium ... wouldn't that bleed? Go ask him Jen!

 

[Jenifred]

So, if we have no external bleeding (none on pants) and no internal bleeding as per autopsy ... where's the blood?

If we are talking about the wound to the chest, there would be little or no blood there because the blood had already leaked into/out of the neck at such a fast rate because it's so close to the heart and the artery that was injured (corrodid, sorry for the spelling) is a main artery leaving the heart.

Did I make that clear, or should I edit?

 

[golfmom]

The last line of the report says: Death is most likely due to a stab wound to the neck.

Well, one page lists it as the cause and another page lists it as most likely the cause ... I'm a thinking ... it's the cause.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

So, if we have no external bleeding (none on pants) and no internal bleeding as per autopsy ... where's the blood?

Here's another question. If you stab twice in quick succession - first to the chest and immediately afterwards to the neck, would you bleed from the neck so quickly that the blood wouldn't have much of a chance to accumulate in the chest cavity? (I'm really wishing now that I would have gone to med school!) Be sure to thank your husband for us, Jenifred!

 

[golfmom]

If we are talking about the wound to the chest, there would be little or no blood there because the blood had already leaked into/out of the neck at such a fast rate because it's so close to the heart and the artery that was injured (corrodid, sorry for the spelling) is a main artery leaving the heart.

Did I make that clear, or should I edit?

What if Janet was alive when the injury to the pericardium occurred? What would we see? Would her left chest cavity be filled with blood?

 

[Jenifred]

It was described as more than a nick though, it's described as an incision to the pericardium ... wouldn't that bleed? Go ask him Jen!

GRAPHIC

I'm trying to understand him!!

The pericardium is a membrane (kind of like a sack) around the heart. If there was an incision, it would have bleed, but it wouldn't produce a lot of blood because the neck was already bleeding.

But if the chest came first, there would have been more blood.

That's my understanding from him.

ETA:
if the chest wound had occurred first, it would have been a slow bleed. It missed everything major. This could have been survived.

The neck would was quick. The artery that was hit was a major blood carrier to the rest of the body. Blood was rushing through that artery very quickly. There would have been spray from this wound, and he said that the reason there was blood inside the body was because Janet could have been applying pressure to try and stop it.

 

[golfmom]

GRAPHIC

I'm trying to understand him!!

The pericardium is a membrane (kind of like a sack) around the heart. If there was an incision, it would have bleed, but it wouldn't produce a lot of blood because the neck was already bleeding.

But if the chest came first, there would have been more blood.

That's my understanding from him.

ETA:
if the chest wound had occurred first, it would have been a slow bleed. It missed everything major. This could have been survived.

The neck would was quick. The artery that was hit was a major blood carrier to the rest of the body. Blood was rushing through that artery very quickly. There would have been spray from this wound, and he said that the reason there was blood inside the body was because Janet could have been applying pressure to try and stop it.

1. I'm not sure it is possible to understand husbands.

2. Maybe that's why the chest wound was described as having the potential to be fatal.

 

[juliagoulia]

1. I'm not sure it is possible to understand husbands.

2. Maybe that's why the chest wound was described as having the potential to be fatal.

Especially if she had no phone/car to call/go for help!

 

[ewwwinteresting]

The last line of the report says: Death is most likely due to a stab wound to the neck.

This is confusing to me also. Why wouldn't the ME just state that the neck wound was the cause of death? What info. would be lacking for the ME not to make this call?

 

[ewwwinteresting]

The neck would was quick. The artery that was hit was a major blood carrier to the rest of the body. Blood was rushing through that artery very quickly. There would have been spray from this wound, and he said that the reason there was blood inside the body was because Janet could have been applying pressure to try and stop it.

 

[Jenifred]

I'm sorry. I know it's awful.