RDI fiber evidence

[Mysteeri]

Quote from Madeleine/crime magazine:"that Patsy had put JonBenet to bed the previous night. But that couldn't account for the fibers in the paint tray, and they couldn't account for the fibers on the brush used in the ligature and "tied into" the ligature, unless the fibers somehow transferred from Patsy's sweater to JonBenet's clothing and then to the brush and "tied into" the ligature."

If Patsy put her to bed and wore that sweater, it`s likely that there were some fibers from it on JB, right? And the intruder could have gotten some fibers on his hands etc. while touching JB -> transfer to paint tray. Is that a possibility?

 

[voynich]

Quote from Madeleine/crime magazine:"that Patsy had put JonBenet to bed the previous night. But that couldn't account for the fibers in the paint tray, and they couldn't account for the fibers on the brush used in the ligature and "tied into" the ligature, unless the fibers somehow transferred from Patsy's sweater to JonBenet's clothing and then to the brush and "tied into" the ligature."

If Patsy put her to bed and wore that sweater, it`s likely that there were some fibers from it on JB, right? And the intruder could have gotten some fibers on his hands etc. while touching JB -> transfer to paint tray. Is that a possibility?

I think one way to resolve this is to do live, videotaped experiments, just how many fibers and how much shedding does those clothing do? I live with a somewhat sheddy cat and I don't think I have that much cat hair on me, though I could be wrong -- I don't think my clothing mostly cotton shed that much fibers. Doesn't seem to me anyhow.

 

[Tadpole12]

I think one way to resolve this is to do live, videotaped experiments, just how many fibers and how much shedding does those clothing do? I live with a somewhat sheddy cat and I don't think I have that much cat hair on me, though I could be wrong -- I don't think my clothing mostly cotton shed that much fibers. Doesn't seem to me anyhow.

Hi voynich.

IMO fibers are everywhere and loose weaved clothing, knits, fuzzy polyesters, shed the most. Ever note all the fibers floating, suspended in a sun beam.

 

[voynich]

Hi voynich.

IMO fibers are everywhere and loose weaved clothing, knits, fuzzy polyesters, shed the most. Ever note all the fibers floating, suspended in a sun beam.

well yeah that's why I'm somewhat suspicious about the conclusiveness of this evidence and why I ask how many and how large these fibers were. Maybe they found "lint" in that tote and rope.

 

[BBB167893]

If PR had hugged JB while she was alive, w/her jacket, then there would be a transfer of red fibers onto JB's person, and if JB kissed or rubbed her cheeks on PR while PR was wearing her jacket, then there could be fibers on her face, and neck, which could transfer to the sticky side of the tape and rope.

Except those fibers weren't found on JB's body. ONLY on those four key areas.

Could these fibers be present on JB prior to her death, as a result of innocent transfer from JR/PR to JB?

Not according to PR herself.

Do we know whether BR had items of clothing w/similar fibers, or guests at the White's dinner party?

Um, one of the detectives asked PR if Priscilla White had clothes like that, since they were known to shop at the same places. But PR said no.

Were there any unsourced fibers found?

Depends on who you ask.

 

[BBB167893]

If we apply this same strict rationale to the DNA evidence, then there's no escaping an intruder did it. Why the double-standard?

I'm very glad you asked why, HOTYH. I'll be more than happy to tell you why:

Because DNA can't be dated. There's no scientific way (even pseudo-scientific way) to show when DNA was left. BUT, we KNOW that PR was wearing those clothes THAT NIGHT. Her own statements condemn her.

Or are we supposed to ignore the DNA in the underwear that matches DNA on her waistband? In favor of fiber evidence?

The magic words, HOTYH. I finally realized that my phrases like "the big picture" are lacking, so I'll try to be more specific here.

Again--and I know you're weary of this, but just bear with me here--it's a question of how a smoking gun case is handled vs. how a circumstantial case is handled.

See (correct me if I'm wrong), you give the impression that the DNA is the key to the kingdom, and that everything else will fall into place once that key finds the right lock.

But with me (speaking PURELY from my own RDI viewpoint), it's something else entirely. There is no one single key. It's the combination of a LOT of things. And the fiber issue is the primary example of that. It's not just that the fibers were in these key places (which would be enough to get my antenna crackling as it is), but it's also the Rs' actions and statements concerning them. PR claims her fibers got tied into the cord knots because she laid on top of JB's body. But that can't be, because as JR wrote in DOI, he'd already covered JB's body with the second blanket.

Everybody still with me?

Why was parental DNA not found mixed with blood in JBR's underwear, that matched parental DNA on the waistband?

I'm intelligent, not psychic, HOTYH.

When discussing DNA with RDI, its as if its 1997 because there is no DNA. That is, if IDI didn't bring it up it would be subverted evidence.

Just what is THAT supposed to mean?

 

[BBB167893]

I can understand that JR would wear a sweater while staging CS,

Excellent.

but why would PR wear a red coat while in the basement?

Not coat. Red sweater. The same one she just happened to have on when the police showed up...

Easy enough mistake to make.

Did they find any suspicious evidence of JB on the coat or sweater?

Like what?

 

[BBB167893]

The argument here how long after the murder did the LE get the clothes from that night..If the clothes been washed no evidence of what JB was wearing..

Something like ten months.

 

[BBB167893]

Quote from Madeleine/crime magazine:"that Patsy had put JonBenet to bed the previous night. But that couldn't account for the fibers in the paint tray, and they couldn't account for the fibers on the brush used in the ligature and "tied into" the ligature, unless the fibers somehow transferred from Patsy's sweater to JonBenet's clothing and then to the brush and "tied into" the ligature."

If Patsy put her to bed and wore that sweater, it`s likely that there were some fibers from it on JB, right? And the intruder could have gotten some fibers on his hands etc. while touching JB -> transfer to paint tray. Is that a possibility?

I think they already considered that one, Mysteeri.

 

[BBB167893]

well yeah that's why I'm somewhat suspicious about the conclusiveness of this evidence and why I ask how many and how large these fibers were. Maybe they found "lint" in that tote and rope.

I kind of figured you'd bring that up. Trouble is, for that to happen, the fibers would have to float down several flights of stairs into that room and not land on anything else. At that point, no use calling the cops. You'd need the Ghostbusters!

 

[DeeDee249]

I can understand that JR would wear a sweater while staging CS, but why would PR wear a red coat while in the basement?

Did they find any suspicious evidence of JB on the coat or sweater?

There has been a lot of confusion about PR's jacket. This was not an "outdoor" jacket, but a fleece sweater-jacket that is more like a soft, woven suit jacket.

 

[DeeDee249]

The argument here how long after the murder did the LE get the clothes from that night..If the clothes been washed no evidence of what JB was wearing..

It was about a year later. LE said some of the clothing seemed new and some had certainly been laundered. I do not know if any of JB's clothing from that night was sent. By this I mean the black velvet pants and vest she wore to the White's. The white shirt with silver star that she wore was on her when she was found, and that was taken into evidence at the morgue, along with her longjohns & panties.

 

[voynich]

I kind of figured you'd bring that up. Trouble is, for that to happen, the fibers would have to float down several flights of stairs into that room and not land on anything else. At that point, no use calling the cops. You'd need the Ghostbusters!

How long had PR owned that sweater? Perhaps red fibers built up over years.

Was every fiber found on or near JB accounted for?

 

[voynich]

Excellent.



Not coat. Red sweater. The same one she just happened to have on when the police showed up...

Easy enough mistake to make.



Like what?

JB skin, saliva, pieces of hair, fiber, clothing etc.

 

[voynich]

I'm very glad you asked why, HOTYH. I'll be more than happy to tell you why:

Because DNA can't be dated. There's no scientific way (even pseudo-scientific way) to show when DNA was left. BUT, we KNOW that PR was wearing those clothes THAT NIGHT. Her own statements condemn her.

But can fiber evidence be "dated"? DNA rapidly degrades by bacteria and humidity. Fiber can stick around for years.
If those fibers were already on JB's person as a result of earlier contact, then that could explain why they're there.

Wouldn't we also expect PR's fibers in the panties and JR's fibers in the garrotte and tape?

 

[Mysteeri]

I`m also wondering how many JR/PR fibers were there on JB`s body, the cord, paint tray..It`s likely that JB`s room, bed, clothes, skin and/or hair had some fibers from her parents`sweaters. The possible intruder was around the house, handled JB and her clothes so he probably got some of her fibers on him and could have transfered them. It would be interesting to know more about the fiber evidence and what exactly was tested, what not.

 

[voynich]

I`m also wondering how many JR/PR fibers were there on JB`s body, the cord, paint tray..It`s likely that JB`s room, bed, clothes, skin and/or hair had some fibers from her parents`sweaters. The possible intruder was around the house, handled JB and her clothes so he probably got some of her fibers on him and could have transfered them. It would be interesting to know more about the fiber evidence and what exactly was tested, what not.

A general deposition of PR's sweater and JR's fibers could have built up over the years. Were they found elsewhere in the house, say JB's bedsheets and blanket, carpet? Was fiber unidentified and unsourced also found?

An analogy might be a cat/dog that sheds hair all over the house, over many years. If pet cat hair was found in garrotte, tote, panties, I'm not fully convince it had to be deposited by her parents after petting the cat/dog that night.

 

[voynich]

I`m also wondering how many JR/PR fibers were there on JB`s body, the cord, paint tray..It`s likely that JB`s room, bed, clothes, skin and/or hair had some fibers from her parents`sweaters. The possible intruder was around the house, handled JB and her clothes so he probably got some of her fibers on him and could have transfered them. It would be interesting to know more about the fiber evidence and what exactly was tested, what not.

A general deposition of PR's sweater and JR's fibers could have built up over the years. Were they found elsewhere in the house, say JB's bedsheets and blanket, carpet? Was fiber unidentified and unsourced also found?

An analogy might be a cat/dog that sheds hair all over the house, over many years. If pet cat hair was found in garrotte, tote, panties, I'm not fully convince it had to be deposited by her parents after petting the cat/dog that night.

 

[BBB167893]

How long had PR owned that sweater? Perhaps red fibers built up over years.

I think she'd had it less than a year. But all I can base that on is her story of shopping with Priscilla White.

Was every fiber found on or near JB accounted for?

Depends on who you ask, I guess.

JB skin, saliva, pieces of hair, fiber, clothing etc.

Nothing I'm aware of. But then, she wasn't searched that morning.

But can fiber evidence be "dated"? DNA rapidly degrades by bacteria and humidity. Fiber can stick around for years.

Yes, I know that. But as I said, it's not just the presence of the fibers, it's the conflicting statements that go with them. When I say the fibers can be dated, I mean that we know for a fact that PR had those clothes on that night.

If those fibers were already on JB's person as a result of earlier contact, then that could explain why they're there.

That's not the explanation that was given, though. Moreover, JB's body would have the fibers on it, and it didn't. The fibers were in those four areas period.

Let me say again: it's not just the fibers. It's all the other stuff surrounding them.

Wouldn't we also expect PR's fibers in the panties and JR's fibers in the garrotte and tape?

Depends on who did what. Incidentally, why do you ask?

 

[BBB167893]

A general deposition of PR's sweater and JR's fibers could have built up over the years. Were they found elsewhere in the house, say JB's bedsheets and blanket, carpet?

I know those areas were checked. But no parental fibers found that I know of.