Rebuttal to Sheriff Bill Gores press conference
- Thread starter cynic
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Since time is of the essence and a tent could have and should have been erected around Rebecca Zahau's body, one wonders why the ME arrived 13+ hours after being called to crime scene and why a tent was not erected in the interim. There was mention that Dina Shacknai was spotted at the Spreckels Mansion talking to LE that morning of 7/13/2011.
Could it be that Dina was the "witness" who positively identified Rebecca's dead body for the authorities? LE did need someone to positively identify the dead body and since Jonah Shacknai did not bother to show up at the mansion, and Rebecca's family was not available, I assume Dina was the identifier...
I also assume LE led Dina to the courtyard crime scene where Rebecca's dead boy laid so Dina could make the positive ID, and Dina most likely "accidentally" touched this and that in the mansion, further contaminating the crime scene (as had Adam Shacknai when he supposedly "discovered" Rebecca's hanging).
Simultaneously, Dina would have definitely shed a few tears and notified the authorities that Rebecca "must have taken her own life because she felt guilty" since Rebecca had caused the accident/death of her baby boy Max. Dina likely laid it on thick about Rebecca's guilt and heavily influenced LE's lack of compassion and insensitivity to Rebecca's dead body.
Could it be that Dina was the "witness" who positively identified Rebecca's dead body for the authorities? LE did need someone to positively identify the dead body and since Jonah Shacknai did not bother to show up at the mansion, and Rebecca's family was not available, I assume Dina was the identifier...
I also assume LE led Dina to the courtyard crime scene where Rebecca's dead boy laid so Dina could make the positive ID, and Dina most likely "accidentally" touched this and that in the mansion, further contaminating the crime scene (as had Adam Shacknai when he supposedly "discovered" Rebecca's hanging).
Simultaneously, Dina would have definitely shed a few tears and notified the authorities that Rebecca "must have taken her own life because she felt guilty" since Rebecca had caused the accident/death of her baby boy Max. Dina likely laid it on thick about Rebecca's guilt and heavily influenced LE's lack of compassion and insensitivity to Rebecca's dead body.
If ME did any of these tests to determine the time of death, I presume it would have been in the autopsy report? Police arrive on suspicious scene, a woman is bound and gagged, so they had to assume it could be homicide. So why did it take ME so long to arrive on the scene? It's not like Coronado is a murder capital of the world (for crying out loud) so what was he doing that he didn't arrive on the scene until the evening?
Oh, interesting Zale... you could be right. But it creeps me out thinking you might be. I remember the family said they did not ask them to identify the body.
I presume AS was the one who identified her. He knew her, despite calling her a "girl" on 911 call.
sundrop
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How exactly do you know that? Are people now suggesting that after she hung herself she was doing gymnastics/acrobatics? Those supposed footprints are much higher off the ground than her feet were. She'd have to do somersaults or something like that while hanging to leave those footprints on the wall.
I thought about that but AS was a guest at the Spreckels mansion and not a close friend/family member of Rebecca. In order to officially and positively identify a dead body, you need someone who has known the deceased for a certain length of time (not merely from a few visits and phone calls). Since Jonah didn't show up, this identifier was likely Dina Romano Shacknai.
The marks on the wall are NOT footprints. They are scrapes by tree branches.
I don't believe this was the first time AS has met RZ. She was dating JS for a while, so I am sure AS and RZ have met before.
Barring evidence confirming that LE actually relied on AS' identification of the body, I would believe the law which states that in order to make an official positive identification of a body/corpse, LE legally needs a family member, blood relative, or a close personal friend (which I assume is someone who has known and interacted with the deceased for a length of time more than one or few sparse visits which was likely the case with AS as he resides in Memphis, TN whereas Rebecca lived in AZ and I assume during the summers in CA) along with other physical evidence such as dental records to identify a dead body.
Mrs. Holmes
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I just went over the last press conference again... BG states at one point... he went and got the knives... plural.. he is referring to AS.... ????? truth or a miss speak?
coastal
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OOh, nice catch, Mrs. H! I'll have to go back and listen again, now.
Anything else jump out at you?
I'm just so confused. The more I think about this case, the weirder it gets.
I'm going to try to look at it from
Posterior neck, where are the injuries?
Reporter: A couple of quotes from Dr. Wecht that we haven’t mentioned, one of the things that he said on the program is the body had just plummeted down with that sheer drop of several feet and the cervical vertebrae would have been fractured or dislocated
Dr. Lucas: What Dr. Wecht is referring to is a hangman’s fracture, a so called hangman’s fracture, it’s a fracture of the upper cervical spine that is seen in judicial hangings where a trap door falls out and the body falls straight down vertically, and it’s true she did not have this fracture.
In fact, there’s published studies on this, hangman’s fractures are the exception, rather than the rule, a series from 1992 showed that from a series that they looked at, a minority of those cases actually had a fracture, so the absence of a fracture in Rebecca’s case doesn’t prove anything, it doesn’t add to or subtract from the case. She had other evidence of a long drop, she had some torn muscles in her neck from the drop but she did not have any fractures.
Reporter: Did these other cases have 7 - 9 foot drops?
Dr. Lucas: I don’t have the details off the top of my head on that study but these were regular judicial hangings.
Did Dr. Lucas just do a quick Wikipedia search for his “research” on “hangman’s fractures?”
However, despite its long association with judicial hangings, one study of a series of such hangings showed that only a small minority of hangings produced a hangman's fracture.[1]
References:
[1] James R, Nasmyth-Jones R., The occurrence of cervical fractures in victims of judicial hanging, Forensic Science International, 1992 Apr;54(1):81-91.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hangman's_fracture
The study is available for purchase, or through a paid subscription from a few sources.
There is an abstract available on most of these sites to give some idea of what will be in the publication.
Abstract
Cervical vertebrae from 34 victims of judicial hanging were examined. In only six cases was there a fracture of the axis and only one other fracture was seen in the series. The fractures were of two types. Three were the traditional ‘Hangman's fracture’ whilst three were of a type previously unreported. The incidence of fracture was unassociated with drop, date age or hangman. The results of the post mortems on these subjects were reviewed and found to be grossly inaccurate with regard to fractures. The results indicate that the traditional hangman's fracture occurred in only a small proportion of cases of judicial hanging. The cause of fractures and cause of death in judicial hanging are discussed with a brief history of judicial hanging in this country.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0379073892900839
In the press conference, Dr. Lucas gave no specifics over and above what is in the abstract and seemed to base his belief solely on this one study.
Well, I thought I would check it out so I accessed the study and here is what I found.
· The bodies that were examined were heavily deteriorated and no opinion could be given with respect to spinal cord injury, ligament damage etc.
“The cervical spines of certain convicted murderers executed at three separate prisons between 1882 and 1945 were examined during exhumations of the bodies from the prison grounds prior to redevelopment.”
“The base of the skull and cervical vertebrae from a total of 34 bodies were examined. In many cases some of the bones were absent. This was due to the difficulty in recovering all the skeletal fragments from an individual burial and in a few cases bony disintegration had occurred precluding assessment. Fortunately 90% of C1, C2 and C3 were present and in only 8% of cases was C2 absent.”
· Within the study, two other studies were mentioned which clearly contradicted the findings of the author of this study, but were dismissed as exaggerated and unreliable.
“Evidence was given to the Royal Commission on Capital Punishment (1949 – 1953) by Bentley Purchase stating that of 58 postmortem reports submitted to him, the majority from Sir Bernard Spilsbury, the cause of death was given as fracture dislocation of the cervical vertebrae with crushing or laceration of the cord in all, whilst Vanezls reviewed a series of 19 postmortem reports between 1932 and 1959 and found that some cervical fractures were identified and there was spinal injury in all cases although in 2 cases as low as C4/5. In nearly all cases death was said to have occurred almost instantaneously but in two cases there were signs of asphyxia."
Perhaps if Dr. Lucas had actually taken the time to read the study he would have seen that there were two studies which contradicted the findings that he cited.
He would have also seen that while not all judicial hangings will produce a C2/C3 fracture, severe trauma to the spinal cord was overwhelmingly noted in postmortem reports.
The complete absence of any injury to the cervical region of the spine, including vertebrae, spinal cord, tendons, muscle and ligaments is not only counter intuitive, it is inexplicable.
Dr. Wecht’s comments below – (from the Nov 20/11 Websleuths radio show.)
I have made the comment that there was a total absence of any injury, posteriorly. The cervical vertebrae, which are the first seven vertebrae in our spinal column beginning at the base of our skull, the first one being called the atlas, named after atlas who held the world on his shoulders, occiput, the skull rests on that first cervical vertebrae and then you come on down. No damage either by way of fracture or dislocation, also no damage to the delicate muscles and ligaments and tendons that lie on the front of and back of and to the sides of the vertebral column, no damage at all, none found by Dr. Lucas, and none found by me.
And they say, well, you don’t always have to have damage in an executioner’s type of hanging, I’ll agree that you don’t always have to have it, but isn’t this interesting, you have all that damage anteriorly, fracture of the hyoid bone, hemorrhages and so on, all that force in front and not one single drop of blood, not one slight one millimeter tear of any soft tissues in the rear, so isn’t that interesting too. I’m not saying that she was strangled but I want to make it clear that there is no way in my opinion that it can be stated that they can rule out that she was strangled first and then hanged, that cannot be ruled out, that is a definite possibility, I’m not saying that it occurred, but I want to make it clear and I’m going to repeat it for emphasis, it cannot be ruled out.
(Later in the show…
Cynic: And with what you said a moment ago, as well, in terms of the neck injuries, it’s good to hear you say that there was absolutely nothing found there, nothing in terms of damage to the ligaments or any other…
Dr. Wecht: Posteriorly, yes, absolutely nothing
Cynic: Posteriorly, yes – because in the press conference the point was made that, I think they were specifically talking about hangman’s fractures, but, okay, perhaps not in all cases of a long drop hanging are you going to get a cervical fracture, but certainly given that distance you would think that at least there would be damage to the ligaments?
Dr Wecht: That’s right, you’ve got quite a distance there, of 9 feet, and I thank you for emphasizing that point, do not allow, and I’m saying this to you guys, and to myself and everybody else, do not allow them to focus solely upon the absence of fractures, I made it clear from the beginning, I’m not talking about only, only, a cervical vertebral fracture, or a dislocation, I’m also talking about muscles and ligaments and tendons and there is no pulling, no tearing, no distortion, no disruption, no bleeding at all, posteriorly and I don’t believe that that could happen especially in the presence of all those severe injuries in the front of the neck, how can it be that the back of the neck sustains no damage, zero, zero trauma.
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/websleu...dr-cyril-wecht
Reporter: A couple of quotes from Dr. Wecht that we haven’t mentioned, one of the things that he said on the program is the body had just plummeted down with that sheer drop of several feet and the cervical vertebrae would have been fractured or dislocated
Dr. Lucas: What Dr. Wecht is referring to is a hangman’s fracture, a so called hangman’s fracture, it’s a fracture of the upper cervical spine that is seen in judicial hangings where a trap door falls out and the body falls straight down vertically, and it’s true she did not have this fracture.
In fact, there’s published studies on this, hangman’s fractures are the exception, rather than the rule, a series from 1992 showed that from a series that they looked at, a minority of those cases actually had a fracture, so the absence of a fracture in Rebecca’s case doesn’t prove anything, it doesn’t add to or subtract from the case. She had other evidence of a long drop, she had some torn muscles in her neck from the drop but she did not have any fractures.
Reporter: Did these other cases have 7 - 9 foot drops?
Dr. Lucas: I don’t have the details off the top of my head on that study but these were regular judicial hangings.
Did Dr. Lucas just do a quick Wikipedia search for his “research” on “hangman’s fractures?”
However, despite its long association with judicial hangings, one study of a series of such hangings showed that only a small minority of hangings produced a hangman's fracture.[1]
References:
[1] James R, Nasmyth-Jones R., The occurrence of cervical fractures in victims of judicial hanging, Forensic Science International, 1992 Apr;54(1):81-91.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hangman's_fracture
The study is available for purchase, or through a paid subscription from a few sources.
There is an abstract available on most of these sites to give some idea of what will be in the publication.
Abstract
Cervical vertebrae from 34 victims of judicial hanging were examined. In only six cases was there a fracture of the axis and only one other fracture was seen in the series. The fractures were of two types. Three were the traditional ‘Hangman's fracture’ whilst three were of a type previously unreported. The incidence of fracture was unassociated with drop, date age or hangman. The results of the post mortems on these subjects were reviewed and found to be grossly inaccurate with regard to fractures. The results indicate that the traditional hangman's fracture occurred in only a small proportion of cases of judicial hanging. The cause of fractures and cause of death in judicial hanging are discussed with a brief history of judicial hanging in this country.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0379073892900839
In the press conference, Dr. Lucas gave no specifics over and above what is in the abstract and seemed to base his belief solely on this one study.
Well, I thought I would check it out so I accessed the study and here is what I found.
· The bodies that were examined were heavily deteriorated and no opinion could be given with respect to spinal cord injury, ligament damage etc.
“The cervical spines of certain convicted murderers executed at three separate prisons between 1882 and 1945 were examined during exhumations of the bodies from the prison grounds prior to redevelopment.”
“The base of the skull and cervical vertebrae from a total of 34 bodies were examined. In many cases some of the bones were absent. This was due to the difficulty in recovering all the skeletal fragments from an individual burial and in a few cases bony disintegration had occurred precluding assessment. Fortunately 90% of C1, C2 and C3 were present and in only 8% of cases was C2 absent.”
· Within the study, two other studies were mentioned which clearly contradicted the findings of the author of this study, but were dismissed as exaggerated and unreliable.
“Evidence was given to the Royal Commission on Capital Punishment (1949 – 1953) by Bentley Purchase stating that of 58 postmortem reports submitted to him, the majority from Sir Bernard Spilsbury, the cause of death was given as fracture dislocation of the cervical vertebrae with crushing or laceration of the cord in all, whilst Vanezls reviewed a series of 19 postmortem reports between 1932 and 1959 and found that some cervical fractures were identified and there was spinal injury in all cases although in 2 cases as low as C4/5. In nearly all cases death was said to have occurred almost instantaneously but in two cases there were signs of asphyxia."
Perhaps if Dr. Lucas had actually taken the time to read the study he would have seen that there were two studies which contradicted the findings that he cited.
He would have also seen that while not all judicial hangings will produce a C2/C3 fracture, severe trauma to the spinal cord was overwhelmingly noted in postmortem reports.
The complete absence of any injury to the cervical region of the spine, including vertebrae, spinal cord, tendons, muscle and ligaments is not only counter intuitive, it is inexplicable.
Dr. Wecht’s comments below – (from the Nov 20/11 Websleuths radio show.)
I have made the comment that there was a total absence of any injury, posteriorly. The cervical vertebrae, which are the first seven vertebrae in our spinal column beginning at the base of our skull, the first one being called the atlas, named after atlas who held the world on his shoulders, occiput, the skull rests on that first cervical vertebrae and then you come on down. No damage either by way of fracture or dislocation, also no damage to the delicate muscles and ligaments and tendons that lie on the front of and back of and to the sides of the vertebral column, no damage at all, none found by Dr. Lucas, and none found by me.
And they say, well, you don’t always have to have damage in an executioner’s type of hanging, I’ll agree that you don’t always have to have it, but isn’t this interesting, you have all that damage anteriorly, fracture of the hyoid bone, hemorrhages and so on, all that force in front and not one single drop of blood, not one slight one millimeter tear of any soft tissues in the rear, so isn’t that interesting too. I’m not saying that she was strangled but I want to make it clear that there is no way in my opinion that it can be stated that they can rule out that she was strangled first and then hanged, that cannot be ruled out, that is a definite possibility, I’m not saying that it occurred, but I want to make it clear and I’m going to repeat it for emphasis, it cannot be ruled out.
(Later in the show…
Cynic: And with what you said a moment ago, as well, in terms of the neck injuries, it’s good to hear you say that there was absolutely nothing found there, nothing in terms of damage to the ligaments or any other…
Dr. Wecht: Posteriorly, yes, absolutely nothing
Cynic: Posteriorly, yes – because in the press conference the point was made that, I think they were specifically talking about hangman’s fractures, but, okay, perhaps not in all cases of a long drop hanging are you going to get a cervical fracture, but certainly given that distance you would think that at least there would be damage to the ligaments?
Dr Wecht: That’s right, you’ve got quite a distance there, of 9 feet, and I thank you for emphasizing that point, do not allow, and I’m saying this to you guys, and to myself and everybody else, do not allow them to focus solely upon the absence of fractures, I made it clear from the beginning, I’m not talking about only, only, a cervical vertebral fracture, or a dislocation, I’m also talking about muscles and ligaments and tendons and there is no pulling, no tearing, no distortion, no disruption, no bleeding at all, posteriorly and I don’t believe that that could happen especially in the presence of all those severe injuries in the front of the neck, how can it be that the back of the neck sustains no damage, zero, zero trauma.
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/websleu...dr-cyril-wecht
Mrs. Holmes
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Once again, excellent job Cynic!!! LE & the ME have been covering their buts with barely there superficial so called facts and not bothered to look carefuly and indepth at the information. Thank goodness YOU did!
chantal8991
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To answer your question, please take time to research the following cases, all San Diego Law Enforcement. Just when you think you have heard it all.......along comes the Rebecca Zahau case. As disgusting as the following cases are, I feel that they have reached a new low.
1. Stephanie Crowe
2. Jim Wade
3. Cynthia Sommers
4. Scotty Neaves
5. Dale Akiki
6 Cheri Dale
7. Jane Dorotik
And another coming soon. IMO SDLE will stop at nothing to "solve" a case no matter what the consequences.
arielilane
Justice for Liz Barraza
Dr. Wecht: Im not saying that she was strangled but I want to make it clear that there is no way in my opinion that it can be stated that they can rule out that she was strangled first and then hanged, that cannot be ruled out, that is a definite possibility, Im not saying that it occurred, but I want to make it clear and Im going to repeat it for emphasis, it cannot be ruled out.
This is just amazing that the ME failed to disclose this information. Does he not care about his reputation?
This is just amazing that the ME failed to disclose this information. Does he not care about his reputation?
arielilane
Justice for Liz Barraza
Thank you for this information. A lot to read up on. Paul Pfingst is mentioned as well.
I'm familiar with some of these cases, however, most I am not.
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