Richard Allen Welch, Sr.- A Person of Interest

[siriunsun]

I was responding to speculation that Thomas might have forgotten knowingly or unknowingly being in a car with the Lyon sisters (unknowingly, if he was unfamiliar with them). My point is that had the alleged incident taken place, it would be highly doubtful he could have forgotten about it. But I doubt the alleged incident ever did take place (the allegation that Richard Welch kidnapped the girls).

Ok. At least one witness, and possibly three, disagree so far. I'm glad the FBI and Maryland and Virginia are checking.

 

[siriunsun]

steveP120 and anyone else:

Since the sketch was done of LHM seen the day the girls went missing, I think most of us seem convinced that the sketch may be of LLW2.

Logically, since LLW2 had long hair then and was 18, it does not seem reasonable to think he was wearing a security guard badge and if so-- it probably would have been noticed by someone.

In addition, since LLW probably regularly went to Wheaton Plaza, people would have recognized him as a person hanging around at the mall at his age and not take someone his age seriously as a security guard.

On the other hand, an OLDER man like RAW1, who may have been a security guard for Giant Food and used that Badge at Wheaton Plaza too, would have been taken more seriously.

Would Wheaton Plaza perhaps have contracted and allowed the Giant Food Security Guard to help at WP also?

It DOESN'T seem logical if the badge said "Giant Food Security" on it.

Perhaps RAW1 used the badge improperly at Wheaton Plaza.

Security guards at Montgomery Mall, White Flint Mall, and Lakeforest (not yet built in 1975) were park police....and they did have badges that looked like the one on RAW's hat.

 

[steveP120]

steveP120 and anyone else:

Since the sketch was done of LHM seen the day the girls went missing, I think most of us seem convinced that the sketch may be of LLW2.

Logically, since LLW2 had long hair then and was 18, it does not seem reasonable to think he was wearing a security guard badge and if so-- it probably would have been noticed by someone.

On the other hand, an OLDER man like RAW1, who may have been a security guard for Giant Food and used that Badge at Wheaton Plaza too, would have been taken more seriously.

Would Wheaton Plaza perhaps have contracted and allowed the Giant Food Security Guard to help at WP also?

It DOESN'T seem logical if the badge said "Giant Food Security" on it.

Perhaps RAW1 used the badge improperly at Wheaton Plaza.

I would agree that the clean-cut, older Richard would look more like a security guard, but by the hair standards of the 70s, Lloyd could have pulled off being a security guard. From the sketch of Long Hair Main, likely Lloyd, which describes his clothing, he did dress well the day of the abduction, in sharp contrast to his homeless look in his arrest photo a year or so later.

At the time, Giant was literally attached, near the Sears store at the Plaza. I don't think anyone would have questioned a Giant badge at the plaza.

In my opinion, from the criminal's point of view, the key to pulling off the corrupt cop/security guard scam is to actually find someone committing a crime, shoplifting in this case. Some kid who just got caught shoplifting is not going to be thinking or protesting, are you a real guard; he or she is going to be thinking how can I not go to jail. Someone who is actually shoplifting may give the corrupt guard, the shoplifted merchandise, maybe any money in his pocket or maybe perform a sex act to avoid the police being called.

In contrast, someone who is not shoplifting is going to open his or her bags, deny any shoplifting and wonder what is going on, and likely refuse to go with the so-called guard.

Fortunately, due to DNA evidence and lawsuits, the corrupt cop/guard scam is largely a scam of the past.

 

[simplifymylife2014]

Can someone tell me a quick way to upload or post
pictures with my post? Thanks.

 

[steveP120]

Can someone tell me a quick way to upload or post
pictures with my post? Thanks.

When logged into WS, photos such as maps and your badges do show up as photos in each post.
But when NOT logged into WS, only a link to the photos shows.
This always bothers me since WS seems to log me out often or I am logged out on different computers.
The few times I inserted photos, I just used the insert image button; someone else may know a better way.

 

[Richard]

Back in the 1970's, the well established and bonded Security Agencies required that a Security Guard be a minimum age of 21. While some fly-by-night companies might have hired younger guards, most were over 21 and even middle aged men. Grooming standards were fairly strict, too.

A young, 18 year old guy dressed to cruise the mall, sporting long hair and a moustache would have a hard time appearing like a security guard if all he did was "flash" a badge. If Lloyd Welch was involved in the girls' abduction, it was probably in some supporting role with another, older and more experienced person.

It has been theorized as far back as 1975 that the girls may have been decieved into riding in a car by someone acting in an official looking capacity or perhaps giving them a line like, "Your mother is in the hospital and your dad asked me to find you and bring you there."

Showing a badge in such a ruse might be used to put the girls at ease, rather than to intimidate or scare them.

 

[Richard]

Giant Food Security....

Does anyone know if Security Guards who worked for Giant Foods were only employed for a specific store, or if they were assigned to other Giant Food stores and warehouses in a general area?

I am researching the 1977 abduction and murder of a young girl who worked for the Giant Food Warehouse at Landover Mall in Prince Georges County (Maryland). There seem to be some similarities between this 1977 case and that of the Lyon Sisters, as well as a few other cases discussed here.

 

[Der600]

Giant was close to the Wards end but don't think it was actually attached.

 

[Richard]

Before the mall became a fully enclosed compound as it is today, there were several businesses and buildings "outside" of the collection of stores which composed Wheaton Plaza shopping center.

The end stores were: Woodward and Lothrops (now a Penney's) at the east end, and Montgomery Wards (now a Target) at the west end. Between them was a walking avenue with connected stores on either side.

The Giant food store was located between Wards and University Avenue.

 

[steveP120]

It's unusual for a grocery store to be at a mall, and the layout of the mall changed over time, as did the Wards to Sears to Target, but from my memory and the following plans the original Giant, if not literally attached sharing the same wall, was right next to the Wards/Sears before it moved. The Giant Food is always in the upper left, but first it's attached or very near then it's about 100 yards away, door-to-door.



from: https://thetalkofwheaton.wordpress.com/2010/02/05/wheaton-plaza-then-and-now-50-years/

To me going to the mall, previously named plaza, would be the same as going to Giant.

Someone who worked at that Giant (to me it's the same as working at the mall), would likely be known to many of the mall customers and many of the Giant employees shop or eat at the mall during breaks, even today now that it's 100 yard walk from the Giant door to the Mall door.

 

[boogie55]

It's unusual for a grocery store to be at a mall, and the layout of the mall changed over time, as did the Wards to Sears to Target, but from my memory and the following plans the original Giant, if not literally attached sharing the same wall, was right next to the Wards/Sears before it moved. The Giant Food is always in the upper left, but first it's attached or very near then it's about 100 yards away, door-to-door.

View attachment 70451View attachment 70452View attachment 70453

from: https://thetalkofwheaton.wordpress.com/2010/02/05/wheaton-plaza-then-and-now-50-years/

To me going to the mall, previously named plaza, would be the same as going to Giant.

Someone who worked at that Giant (to me it's the same as working at the mall), would likely be known to many of the mall customers and many of the Giant employees shop or eat at the mall during breaks, even today now that it's 100 yard walk from the Giant door to the Mall door.

Totally agree with you SteveP120. I grew up in the area, had friends, family and myself actually work at Wheaton Plaza. I worked in one of the buildings not exactly attached to the mall but on most breaks I would take, I would just go up and walk around the mall. After a while, you start to recognize the other workers and they start to recognize you.
One thing that I haven't seen mentioned on any of these posts is the isolated area out behind what was then the Wards Auto Center. The parking lot behind the auto center was barely visible from the main parking lot at that side of the mall and really, the only cars parked back there were cars that were being worked on and employees of the Auto Center. There really wasn't great visibility to this parking lot from the Auto Center either. Off of the parking lot in this area was access to yards and I'm sure other paths that would lead down to McComas Ave. This could have been a different way that the girls may have gone home at different times.
In my opinion, the area behind the Auto Center would be a decent location for an abduction given its remoteness from the rest of the Mall.

 

[steveP120]

Totally agree with you SteveP120. I grew up in the area, had friends, family and myself actually work at Wheaton Plaza. I worked in one of the buildings not exactly attached to the mall but on most breaks I would take, I would just go up and walk around the mall. After a while, you start to recognize the other workers and they start to recognize you.
One thing that I haven't seen mentioned on any of these posts is the isolated area out behind what was then the Wards Auto Center. The parking lot behind the auto center was barely visible from the main parking lot at that side of the mall and really, the only cars parked back there were cars that were being worked on and employees of the Auto Center. There really wasn't great visibility to this parking lot from the Auto Center either. Off of the parking lot in this area was access to yards and I'm sure other paths that would lead down to McComas Ave. This could have been a different way that the girls may have gone home at different times.
In my opinion, the area behind the Auto Center would be a decent location for an abduction given its remoteness from the rest of the Mall.

Although I bought tires there once, I don't remember much about the Auto Center since it was demolished soon after I moved close to the mall.
If traffic patterns were the same in the 70s as in the 90s, I think you are right that people would park close to the entrance roads or Plaza's entrance, and the backside would only fill up on very crowded days. It does look like the least public part of the parking lot if up to no good.

There is a fairly steep fall-off from the outer ring road on the backside of the mall, since they leveled the mall land as much as possible. There is a guard rail for cars to keep cars from going down the steep embankment. It's possible, but not easy to jump over the guard rail and go down the embankment to the end of Peregory Drive, but this is not a well-worn path now, it's barely a path; it may be overgrown with brush in summer. I used the path once, decided it was a very bad way to the mall, and never used it again. More people use the "Hippie Path" over the empty land near the top of McComas Ave. that comes out near the back of Costco.

 

[siriunsun]

Although I bought tires there once, I don't remember much about the Auto Center since it was demolished soon after I moved close to the mall.
If traffic patterns were the same in the 70s as in the 90s, I think you are right that people would park close to the entrance roads or Plaza's entrance, and the backside would only fill up on very crowded days. It does look like the least public part of the parking lot if up to no good.

There is a fairly steep fall-off from the outer ring road on the backside of the mall, since they leveled the mall land as much as possible. There is a guard rail for cars to keep cars from going down the steep embankment. It's possible, but not easy to jump over the guard rail and go down the embankment to the end of Peregory Drive, but this is not a well-worn path now, it's barely a path; it may be overgrown with brush in summer. I used the path once, decided it was a very bad way to the mall, and never used it again. More people use the "Hippie Path" over the empty land near the top of McComas Ave. that comes out near the back of Costco.

Hippie Path! Lol! You are right, more of the land in and around the mall has been leveled since the 70's. The traffic patterns, however; were not the same in the 70's as in the 90's. In the 70's, it was not nearly as congested on the major roads. By the late 80's and definitely by the 90's, rush hour in the Washington Metropolitan area had become a pandemonium! In 1975, it wasn't yet a traffic nightmare.

 

[boogie55]

Although I bought tires there once, I don't remember much about the Auto Center since it was demolished soon after I moved close to the mall.
If traffic patterns were the same in the 70s as in the 90s, I think you are right that people would park close to the entrance roads or Plaza's entrance, and the backside would only fill up on very crowded days. It does look like the least public part of the parking lot if up to no good.

There is a fairly steep fall-off from the outer ring road on the backside of the mall, since they leveled the mall land as much as possible. There is a guard rail for cars to keep cars from going down the steep embankment. It's possible, but not easy to jump over the guard rail and go down the embankment to the end of Peregory Drive, but this is not a well-worn path now, it's barely a path; it may be overgrown with brush in summer. I used the path once, decided it was a very bad way to the mall, and never used it again. More people use the "Hippie Path" over the empty land near the top of McComas Ave. that comes out near the back of Costco.

Steve, the traffic pattern for the mall back in the 70's and 80's, on that end of the parking lot, was to drive in between the Auto Center and the main mall. Most people wouldn't use the outside ring on that side unless the main route was congested or to maybe get down to the office buildings at Wheaton South.
Also, as of the mid 80's, the guardrail that you mentioned wasn't there. I was at a party once at a house on McComas that backed up to the parking lot near the Auto Center. Some guy, up on the parking lot, was teaching his girlfriend how to drive a clutch. She ended up driving off the parking lot and down into the woods. Luckily the woods were there, she might have made it all the way down the embankment into the people at the party ;-)

 

[Wayners]

In 1975 it (Sears) was Montgomery Wards.

 

[siriunsun]

Steve, the traffic pattern for the mall back in the 70's and 80's, on that end of the parking lot, was to drive in between the Auto Center and the main mall. Most people wouldn't use the outside ring on that side unless the main route was congested or to maybe get down to the office buildings at Wheaton South.
Also, as of the mid 80's, the guardrail that you mentioned wasn't there. I was at a party once at a house on McComas that backed up to the parking lot near the Auto Center. Some guy, up on the parking lot, was teaching his girlfriend how to drive a clutch. She ended up driving off the parking lot and down into the woods. Luckily the woods were there, she might have made it all the way down the embankment into the people at the party ;-)

Did that incident end up on the news? It sounds familiar!

 

[boogie55]

Did that incident end up on the news? It sounds familiar!

As far as I know, it didn't make the news. I believe the only thing hurt was the girls feelings about wrecking her boyfriends car ;-)

 

[steveP120]

The more I think about it, if the older Welches thought or knew Lloyd was a child abuser or worse, I can't see them or anyone saying to a 10-year-old:

"We think/know your 18-year old cousin might be a child rapist and a child murderer, so stay away from him."

I think they might say something more like:

"Never go anywhere with Lloyd alone; he is a very bad influence and can't control himself."

They might have given off other hint's like, "If you ever see Lloyd with Jr. High School students, let me know."

Thomas, now grown, may have realized that his uncle and aunt knew or suspected more than they told him when he was ten, and called and met them in person the day Lloyd was named a person of interest.

 

[Wayners]

LLW is weaving a story of truth and lies to divert attention from himself. He is a proven Pedophile many times over with a long list of crimes everywhere he has gone. Just a week after the abductions he's telling a security guard he saw the girls get in a car with an unknown man. Like a lot criminals and liars, they look at their crimes in the third person like it isn't them. That unknown man was him. Now we have young women and girls saying that he would show a badge at the mall and try to hustle them to the parking lot to get them into his car. He could easily steal a badge from his uncle. I can't believe the dirtball got away with as much as he did. Then LLW claims that he saw his uncle raping one of the girls the next day. What I think really happened is LLW was caught raping one of the girls by Thomas Welch Jr. but he didn't really know what he saw or he didn't know who he was raping and he told Richard Allen Welch Sr, his dad? what he saw. Richard Allen not really knowing the whole story and LLW probably asking for the car and money gave it to him and he was able to hide his crimes. Are the girls on Taylor's Mountain? A fellow inmate said he told him he buried the bodies on family property in Virginia. LLW himself said to police investigators he doesn't know where they are buried---LLW already knowing they are dead, which is pretty suspicious right off. If LLW directed police to Taylor's Mountain and I don't think he did, then you know they are not there. LLW also seems to think he can get a reward off his crime by somehow providing a tip without implicating himself. What a fool.

 

[winterrayne]

Richard welch isn't Thomas welchs dad, i believe it's his uncle. Llyods cousin.