Richard Allen Welch, Sr.- A Person of Interest

"Curious, how do we know for certain he lost custody of his children?"
This was reported in one of the Washington Post articles, but I can't recall if the Post found the information from legal records or the memory of a Welch family member.

"Thinking outside the box one more time, there is always a remote possibility (not probability), the Lyon sisters left on their own accord. There may not be an abduction crime at all, but instead perhaps false imprisonment, assault, etc."

Since both the sisters and Lloyd Welch, if not the other Welch hung out and/or worked at the mall, I always thought there was a good chance they knew each other if only by sight, and there was a chance Lloyd could have talked the girls into something. Today people see him as a convicted sex offender no 12-year old girl would talk to, but at the time, he was more likely a cool older boy to the girls.

"Thinking outside the box, if the Lyon sisters were kept alive for some time, then that amount of time would be legally germane to the case. "

Lloyd alone did not have the resources to keep anyone, even himself, alive with depending on family. Lloyd did not even have the resources to move a body. The uncle, working as a security guard or at a grocery store, even a good union job, likely did not have the resources to keep a second house/apartment for other women or girls. Maybe that Kraisel had the money. Isn't Richard the expert on the Tape Recorder Man? Does Richard have an opinion of if he looked anything like Tape Recorder Man?

"there is always a remote possibility (not probability), the Lyon sisters left on their own accord."
As someone posted online, they did have an hour or two between possibly walking down Drumm Ave home, and could have walked anywhere in Kensington, planning to be home on time. There is a lesser chance that they hung out at the mall, and decided to run away in the afternoon. But as the most probable things are ruled out (the most probable was they they should have made it home) other rare events become more likely. This would likely have to be combined with some other bad luck, like falling in a river, for neither to have been found.
 
Maryland Judiciary Case Search...

Here is a link to the Maryland Judiciary Case Search website for anyone who wants to peruse its summaries:


http://casesearch.courts.state.md.us/inquiry/inquiry-index.jsp


You will get an opening page where you have to read their rules, agree to them and then sign in. After that, you have to enter the name of the person you wish to check. Note that you have to use alternate spellings, alernate names, etc to sometimes get a complete picture.

This site normally only includes landmark dates in a case, such as when charges were made, various hearings, appearances, motions filed, notices given etc, etc. They do not normally include specifics regarding various charges or merits of any case. It is more like an index and administrative record.

The site includes Criminal cases and Civil cases.

There is a procedure for submitting changes and corrections to these records described on the site.
 
Maryland Judiciary Case Search...

Here is a link to the Maryland Judiciary Case Search website for anyone who wants to peruse its summaries:

http://casesearch.courts.state.md.us/inquiry/inquiry-index.jsp
<snip>
There is a procedure for submitting changes and corrections to these records described on the site.

Thanks for passing on the link. I agree it would be nice to submit a correction for this issue.

It's also a good reminder for everyone else to know how problematic and context-sensitive the MD case search website can be. As evidenced by the 'alias' issue, not everything we read there is correct or properly worded. Passing on bad information only makes the problem worse.

The anomalies that we find in that database only adds more emphasis on why we should double-check our assumptions before making statements of fact. This is especially even more true when it may involve children. Since we have members of the Welch family following us here on the WS forum we really need to be as careful as we can be.

The good members of Welch family are our friends. We need to be mindful of their presence so we don't lose them!

"Measure twice, cut once!"
 
"Thinking outside the box, if the Lyon sisters were kept alive for some time, then that amount of time would be legally germane to the case. "

Lloyd alone did not have the resources to keep anyone, even himself, alive with depending on family. Lloyd did not even have the resources to move a body. The uncle, working as a security guard or at a grocery store, even a good union job, likely did not have the resources to keep a second house/apartment for other women or girls. Maybe that Kraisel had the money. Isn't Richard the expert on the Tape Recorder Man? Does Richard have an opinion of if he looked anything like Tape Recorder Man?
Who's to say the uncle may have been the only possible 'bad guy'? Don't forget we have potential perjury on our hands too. The facts in this case could possibly go well beyond the initial 1975 date stamp, thereby making those 'future' events past the original incident have legal criminal implications. This story ain't over yet!


"there is always a remote possibility (not probability), the Lyon sisters left on their own accord."
As someone posted online, they did have an hour or two between possibly walking down Drumm Ave home, and could have walked anywhere in Kensington, planning to be home on time. There is a lesser chance that they hung out at the mall, and decided to run away in the afternoon. But as the most probable things are ruled out (the most probable was they they should have made it home) other rare events become more likely. This would likely have to be combined with some other bad luck, like falling in a river, for neither to have been found.
I was thinking more along the lines of the girls leaving willingly in a car. Perhaps the younger boy may have had some influence in order to allow that to happen? I know, I know - very doubtful. Just saying.
 
Was this in the Washington Post article? I still can't find it.

From:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...f4d856-9330-11e3-84e1-27626c5ef5fb_story.html

Dolores Askins of Silver Spring said her sister, Helen Craver, dated Welch for about 10 years starting in the 1970s. During that time, Askins said, the couple worked for a variety of carnivals, setting up rides and tending the grounds. They lived on the road and had no permanent home. Askins said that they had four children together but that authorities eventually removed them because the couple were unable to provide for them.
 
Thanks for passing on the link. I agree it would be nice to submit a correction for this issue.

It's also a good reminder for everyone else to know how problematic and context-sensitive the MD case search website can be. As evidenced by the 'alias' issue, not everything we read there is correct or properly worded. Passing on bad information only makes the problem worse.

The anomalies that we find in that database only adds more emphasis on why we should double-check our assumptions before making statements of fact. This is especially even more true when it may involve children. Since we have members of the Welch family following us here on the WS forum we really need to be as careful as we can be.

The good members of Welch family are our friends. We need to be mindful of their presence so we don't lose them!

"Measure twice, cut once!"

It might be a bit premature to start assigning labels to entire families. While I understand what Officer Francke was trying to say, his choice of words was a little unfortunate. He noticed one nuclear family, along with a nephew, Lloyd, who appear to be enabling each other by covering for each other. The general public morphed that message into something else, entirely.
 
It is so good to see things moving in the case, such as the second search.

It makes you wonder, WHY would PW tell the newsreporter NOTHING had been taken?

I have to say that MCP making a statement that there WERE ITEMS removed is very interesting.
 
It is so good to see things moving in the case, such as the second search.

It makes you wonder, WHY would PW tell the newsreporter NOTHING had been taken?

I have to say that MCP making a statement that there WERE ITEMS removed is very interesting.


Obviously, Pat Welch did not think that anyone had actually seen evidence removed from her home, and she though police would not comment on it. Apparently, the case is past the point where "yes" or "no" comments concerning whether or not evidence has been recovered from various locations would hurt the case or tip off any new suspects.

They may have changed their facebook names and combined just in case she goes to jail. That would be a ridicules way to manage a social media account if one or both of them becomes incarcerated for any length of time, but it would be pretty consistent with other mistakes they have made, such as lying to the grand jury.
 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...a9ac38-f8bd-11e4-9ef4-1bb7ce3b3fb7_story.html

This Washington Post article has better details about the search, what was found, comments from RAW1's attorney, and describes a search done at LLW2's old home:

"...Detectives seized items from Richard Welch&#8217;s home, including a metal hammer, according to Richard Welch&#8217;s attorney."
"Carter B. Garrett, a Bedford-based attorney for Richard Welch, said it was his understanding that investigators took items from Richard Welch&#8217;s home that they had previously seized and then returned to the Welch&#8217;s. He said that Richard Welch and his wife, Patricia, had kept the items in a box and didn&#8217;t seem concerned about them."


"As for the broader case, Garrett noted that it was a convicted felon (LLW2) who made the assertion that Richard Welch left the mall in 1975 with the Lyon sisters. &#8220;It seems like the rantings of someone trying to get out of prison,&#8221; Garrett said. &#8220;Dick&#8217;s got some relatives who have a history with alcohol abuse and the criminal justice system, but he&#8217;s not one of them.&#8221;

An interesting note, alcoholism occurs in almost 50% of children with an alcoholic parent. If you have TWO alcoholic parents, odds are even higher. About 50% of alcoholics develop alcoholism from their genetics (nature), the other 50% develop alcoholism from environmental factors (nurture). So, if you have the alcoholic gene and a difficult environment, you're screwed. There is a HUGE correlation between alcohol and crime, including physical violence and sexual abuse. What a BAD recipe.
Did Dick really escape this sad family legacy, or was he just better at staying out of the criminal justice system by staying under LE's radar?
"...some (of Dick's)relatives...have a history with alcohol abuse and the criminal justice system..." This is an understatement. When you study their criminal records in VA and MD, you see that getting a criminal record seems to be some sort of initiation or rite of passage for the majority of the males in this family. The extent of this is difficult to comprehend and is the stuff of criminology and sociology textbooks.

Regarding the search at LLW's former home, 4714 Baltimore Avenue... the owner said "detectives seemed particularly interested in the downstairs." &#8220;They cleaned out the whole basement,&#8221; he said. &#8220;They were there all day.&#8221;

I've attached a picture of the house at 4714 Baltimore Avenue, originally purchased in the 1950's by Rose & Nicola Nickles (both deceased), and currently owned by their descendants. For decades the Nickles were wheelers & dealers of low-end PG county homes and real estate; buying, selling and renting out dozens of properties, including NUMEROUS homes in this one block area alone. They rented homes to several Welch families including LLW1, TTW2, and also owned several buildable lots on the same street RAW1 now lives on. It's a small world...after all.
LLW old home.jpg
 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...a9ac38-f8bd-11e4-9ef4-1bb7ce3b3fb7_story.html

This Washington Post article has better details about the search, what was found, comments from RAW1's attorney, and describes a search done at LLW2's old home:

"...Detectives seized items from Richard Welch&#8217;s home, including a metal hammer, according to Richard Welch&#8217;s attorney."
"Carter B. Garrett, a Bedford-based attorney for Richard Welch, said it was his understanding that investigators took items from Richard Welch&#8217;s home that they had previously seized and then returned to the Welch&#8217;s. He said that Richard Welch and his wife, Patricia, had kept the items in a box and didn&#8217;t seem concerned about them."


"As for the broader case, Garrett noted that it was a convicted felon (LLW2) who made the assertion that Richard Welch left the mall in 1975 with the Lyon sisters. &#8220;It seems like the rantings of someone trying to get out of prison,&#8221; Garrett said. &#8220;Dick&#8217;s got some relatives who have a history with alcohol abuse and the criminal justice system, but he&#8217;s not one of them.&#8221;

An interesting note, alcoholism occurs in almost 50% of children with an alcoholic parent. If you have TWO alcoholic parents, odds are even higher. About 50% of alcoholics develop alcoholism from their genetics (nature), the other 50% develop alcoholism from environmental factors (nurture). So, if you have the alcoholic gene and a difficult environment, you're screwed. There is a HUGE correlation between alcohol and crime, including physical violence and sexual abuse. What a BAD recipe.
Did Dick really escape this sad family legacy, or was he just better at staying out of the criminal justice system by staying under LE's radar?
"...some (of Dick's)relatives...have a history with alcohol abuse and the criminal justice system..." This is an understatement. When you study their criminal records in VA and MD, you see that getting a criminal record seems to be some sort of initiation or rite of passage for the majority of the males in this family. The extent of this is difficult to comprehend and is the stuff of criminology and sociology textbooks.

Regarding the search at LLW's former home, 4714 Baltimore Avenue... the owner said "detectives seemed particularly interested in the downstairs." &#8220;They cleaned out the whole basement,&#8221; he said. &#8220;They were there all day.&#8221;

I've attached a picture of the house at 4714 Baltimore Avenue, originally purchased in the 1950's by Rose & Nicola Nickles (both deceased), and currently owned by their descendants. For decades the Nickles were wheelers & dealers of low-end PG county homes and real estate; buying, selling and renting out dozens of properties, including NUMEROUS homes in this one block area alone. They rented homes to several Welch families including LLW1, TTW2, and also owned several buildable lots on the same street RAW1 now lives on. It's a small world...after all.
View attachment 74660

So are we to assume that the entire basement at 4714 Baltimore Avenue was ALL Lloyd Jr's stuff he left there YEARS ago and no other tenants had stored THEIR stuff in that same basement?
 
So are we to assume that the entire basement at 4714 Baltimore Avenue was ALL Lloyd Jr's stuff he left there YEARS ago and no other tenants had stored THEIR stuff in that same basement?

I don't think we or the police have to assume that the contents of the basement are all the Welch's.
It's a long shot, both because of the time, and slight chance of the crime actually happening there in my opinion, but if there is a single hair or drop of blood in the basement from even one of the Lyon sisters, it's going to be difficult or impossible come up with an innocent explanation in my opinion.
 
If Lloyd told MCP that he left something in the old house, or if one of the tenants found something in the basement that did not belong to them, MCP may very well have been interested in searching.
 
A few days ago, there was a local VA story that Richard Welch hired a local VA lawyer:
http://www.wset.com/story/29078067/lyon-sisters-person-of-interest-hires-bedford-attorney

I did not think that this, was important enough to even mention here.

Another local VA story about the same time, but just showed up on Google to me, which has the added information that RW denies having anything to do with disappearance.

Bedford attorney: Richard Welch had nothing to do with Lyon sisters' disappearance
http://www.wdbj7.com/news/local/bed...o-do-with-lyon-sisters-disappearance/33028520

which seems to me a rather broad denial of not only being involved with a crime, before or after the fact, but not knowing about it.
 
Even a teenage kid in the 1970s who learned about crime from watching Columbo on TV would know that the way to get away with murder was to get rid of the bodies (easier said than done) and get rid of the murder weapon (and not talk to Columbo).

Of course in the 1970s, there was not DNA from murder weapons, but any murder weapon, such as a hammer would leave marks, which could be roughly matched to wounds on bodies.

A murder weapon would not even be needed with small victims. I am not sure that a murder weapon other than a rock or branch would be available if the crime occurred in the woods. Of course if a murder occurred inside someone's house, several murder weapons such as knives or tools would be available in almost any house.

If bodies were buried, a shovel or other digging tool such as a garden trowel or just a screwdriver would most likely be used. If the bodies were transported a couple of hundred miles to the back woods of VA, most likely a large shovel would be used, which may have been in a trunk with bodies for the trip. If the bodies were burred nearby Kensington, a murderer may have used a smaller shovel/trowel, which would be both easier to steal from a nearby store, and to dig with unobserved.

The police did seize a box with a hammer in it. A hammer could have been a murder weapon. Or the box could have also had a small shovel in it.

Before DNA use in forensics, I can't recall anyone burning down houses or cars to burn DNA evidence, and I can't recall any criminals getting rid of shovels. DNA detection is getting better, but it would be a long shot if any blood/DNA remained in any crack or wood of a digging tool.
 

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