Sentencing and beyond- Jodi Arias General Discussion #3

[krkrjx]

I believe TA was in fact a neat freak. But for me being a neat freak is not a bad thing. It's when one pushes those standards on everyone else that it gets bad but to be neat about your own surroundings is a personal choice and in no way a personality fault unless it becomes an obsession. I do believe Travis always kept his closet as neat as we saw in the photos. I think he put his own sheets in the washer as it just sounds like something that one with what I believe to be his level of neat-freakiness would do. I also think his office would have been reasonably tidy and clean. If it was a mess, someone else made it that way, IMO.

 

[wasnt_me]

According to her own timeline, she had to be saying it was when she arrived - which doesn't make it true either.

According to her, they went to sleep at the same time, woke up at the same time, had sex, spent several hours trying to look at pics, then he went and took a shower.

In reality, I think she was trying to remember the scene and explain away pieces of it, including her using the floor cleaner after she murdered him.

I don't know what she's trying to do because I can't go behind her skull and know her brain. I can only go by what was said in the video. In the video, she does not indicate that it was that way when she got there. She only indicates that at some point, it was that way. For all we know he did it at midnight and she didn't notice it until daylight.

Enrique and Zack didn't note it was that way until that evening. With Zack saying he was there from 3-4pm, if he actually was (which I think he would know), he doesn't indicate it was that way. That narrows it down to after 4pm. Unless Zack was just not asked if he saw the floor cleaner at that time, which is also a possibility.

 

[Hope4More]

Whether we see it or not, the fact is travis told us on the May 25-26 g-chat that it existed. He additionally spoke about it on the call when she said "there are tiimes you've been miserable, and I've like 'raped' you." Talked about her being pretty when she was crying, etc.

I'm not sure what you're saying here, but it seems a little out of context, IMO.

We likely will never know just what was happening during their confrontation on May 26. We know that she was lying her butt off during it, as always. What we don't know is what secret thing she had told Travis, or if she even did.

He could have been feeling threatened by her and was at first simply trying to appease her before he said h-ll with that, or maybe he was trying to lull her into confessing something in writing (which is what the Hughes believe).


More to the point. The escalations were due to HER provoking him, deliberately, IMO, until he did feel like he was losing control. What he said plainly on May 26 was just that. That she'd then drown out his anger with more drama until he forgave her.

Her drama included floods of tears and threats of suicide. I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if he had sex with at times because he had absolutely no idea how to handle her terrifying emotional outbursts, and she always seemed de-stressed after sex.

Jmo.

 

[wasnt_me]

I believe TA was in fact a neat freak. But for me being a neat freak is not a bad thing. It's when one pushes those standards on everyone else that it gets bad but to be neat about your own surroundings is a personal choice and in no way a personality fault unless it becomes an obsession. I do believe Travis always kept his closet as neat as we saw in the photos. I think he put his own sheets in the washer as it just sounds like something that one with what I believe to be his level of neat-freakiness would do. I also think his office would have been reasonably tidy and clean. If it was a mess, someone else made it that way, IMO.

All of these points are valid, and your interpretation of neat-freak was what I was getting at. It has negative connotations. You elaborated on what the negative connotations could be, which is why I do not call him a neat-freak. He was an organized person, but I do not hold him to the level of neat-freak standards such that anything out of order is someone else's fault. I will allow for things not to be tidy in an office he uses all day long, versus a closet that he just takes things in and out of instead of working in--depending upon the level of disarray of course.

I--for myself--do not put any label on Travis. I don't know him. His friends apparently didn't know him as well as they believed. They know their perception of him, which leads to true or also false conclusions at times.

As for the sheets, personally, I think he did it because he had sex on them. There was KY jelly and -- other things-- on them. So he washed them. Some people do that after sex for sanitary reasons, whether they are neat-freaks or not.

But it could also be that he was doing what Jodi said--cleaning his house that day, regardless of sex stains on sheets or no sex stains on sheets.

 

[wasnt_me]

I'm not sure what you're saying here, but it seems a little out of context, IMO.

We likely will never know just what was happening during their confrontation on May 26. We know that she was lying her butt off during it, as always. What we don't know is what secret thing she had told Travis, or if she even did.

He could have been feeling threatened by her and was at first simply trying to appease her before he said h-ll with that, or maybe he was trying to lull her into confessing something in writing (which is what the Hughes believe).


More to the point. The escalations were due to HER provoking him, deliberately, IMO, until he did feel like he was losing control. What he said plainly on May 26 was just that. That she'd then drown out his anger with more drama until he forgave her.

Her drama included floods of tears and threats of suicide. I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if he had sex with at times because he had absolutely no idea how to handle her terrifying emotional outbursts, and she always seemed de-stressed after sex.

Jmo.

I'm sorry if you feel what I'm saying is out of context. I was having a discussion with Rick. I told Rick the couple had a pattern of escalation/de-escalation/cooldown/normal/repeat (or something of that nature. I can't remember my exact words).

He said he wasn't sure there was such a pattern. I replied to him that whether we believe it or not, Travis said there was such a pattern in the May 25-26th argument. I additionally said Travis referenced that pattern in the recorded phone call when he said there were times she'd been miserable and he'd "raped" her.

I did not go into questioning who started what, why there was an escalation or anything else. I simply was saying it existed. You are welcome to have your own perceptions of why it existed. I didn't go into that, I don't believe, so none of that is to my point.

ETA--I will say that Travis is part of the cycle because of his reactions -- whatever they might have been. If we cite the last argument, I will say that Travis could have handled it the same way he did the 22nd argument and just stopped talking to her. But he kept talking to her, kept replying. I've been through the same thing he has, and it's VERY hard to stop engaging. From my experience, I understand why he did it, but my experience taught me not to do it. To stop engaging no matter what. If he'd lived through this, I believe he would have learned this same thing. Again, I'm NOT faulting him. Please do not reply as if I am. I'm simply explaining how I see it. It is not his fault that he didn't know how to handle a bi-polar, borderline person.

 

[pocketaccent]

32:33
JA: So some I deleted and some I kept taking umm…and some he looked really good, I thought. The one that you showed me yesterday looking right at you, I think that is a great picture. He hates it. I don’t know what he hates about that. I think it’s a very good picture of him.

This is why I think she downloaded the shower pictures to her own laptop and savored them in Yreka. She knows details of that picture and really likes that particular picture. (Remember also? that she 'got' the foot picture immediately after being shown?)

Her language is strange too. Since English is not my native language, maybe I'm over interpreting but, why does she say 'He hates it. I don't know what he hates about that.' in present tense?

 

[Hope4More]

I believe TA was in fact a neat freak. But for me being a neat freak is not a bad thing. It's when one pushes those standards on everyone else that it gets bad but to be neat about your own surroundings is a personal choice and in no way a personality fault unless it becomes an obsession. I do believe Travis always kept his closet as neat as we saw in the photos. I think he put his own sheets in the washer as it just sounds like something that one with what I believe to be his level of neat-freakiness would do. I also think his office would have been reasonably tidy and clean. If it was a mess, someone else made it that way, IMO.

This is why multiple sleuthers are always better than one.

It would never occur to me that "neat freak" could be seen as a negative or perjorative word. All it means to me is someone who prefers and needs order and organization, and I have no doubt that describes Travis.

It takes a need for order, as well as a lot of discipline, to get up in the morning and write out index cards outlining a set number of goals for the day, then meeting those goals everyday. I can only marvel at such a feat.

Anyway. Words matter, and it's helpful to be reminded that the same words on a page can be interpreted in many different ways.

 

[pocketaccent]

29:19
JA: Yes, we had sex a couple of times. Once was in his bed and once was again downstairs in his office. He was looking at some pictures that I had brought for him, but he has a virus on his computer, so when he clicked the Start menu on Windows XP or Windows 2000 or whatever, you have like My Pictures, My Music, My Computer. You can usually click on My Computer and then go into the disc drive and open that. He clicked the Windows and it come up and none of that My Pictures, My Music, none of that would come up, so he had some kind of virus he was dealing with.

His screensaver was a bunch of little bugs eating up the screen. It was just weird, and he said that is from the virus, too. I said, “That’s a cute screensaver,” and he said, “Yeah, it’s my stupid virus.”

She is describing her frustration that afternoon, dealing with virus in his computer.

She had to delete a lot of stuff from his laptop probably. Must have been so frustrating when his My pictures wouldn't come up...

 

[Hope4More]

This is why I think she downloaded the shower pictures to her own laptop and savored them in Yreka. She knows details of that picture and really likes that particular picture. (Remember also? that she 'got' the foot picture immediately after being shown?)

Her language is strange too. Since English is not my native language, maybe I'm over interpreting but, why does she say 'He hates it. I don't know what he hates about that.' in present tense?

I think she was reliving that moment and loving it and wanting to hold onto the thrill she felt, as she says elsewhere (about the ninjas), of having total power over him.

 

[RickshawFan]

Did you get the "when she arrived" directly from the video? Because i recall her saying it was when she came downstairs after sex and her supposed shower.

ETA--I don't know where I got the shower thing from (maybe testimony.) I just went back and listened. She didn't say anything about her and a shower, but she didn't say it was when she arrived the furniture had been like that, either. She said it in a disjunctive way, though, if that's the right term.

Video 14 on David Lohr, around 30 minutes in.

https://youtu.be/7XN5fpDH2p4?t=28m16s

Flores was asking her about after sex. She was talking about looking at CD pics. she talked about the frustrating virus on the computer. Flores tries to ascertain what time this was with the CD's.

EF--so what time is this now, you guys are messing with the computer?
JA--Uh, I can't really remember. It was after every--after we had--done a couple other th--
EF--couple hours--hour or so later?
JA--Yeah, maybe. Afternoon. I (or I'd) just--you know--he had been cleaning his house. Uhm..........so I couldn't--I wasn't sitting on the couch. Usually, I'd just chill on the couch downstairs, you know, if no one was home. Uhm, but he had like chairs and all that stuff all over the couch like he was cleaning the floors or something. Uh, fed napoleon. I don't know if he made phone calls or not or what he was doing on the internet, but at one point, he was gonna go up and take a shower.

So I don't know, because Flores interrupted her, if she backed up or kept going in her timeline. If Enrique did not see chairs all over the furniture at 6am, then it hadn't happened yet. If Zack didn't indicate seeing it at 3pm, then it hadn't happened yet.

I really, really do think the floor cleaner and furniture is significant somehow. It puzzles me as much as where her second Helio is.

I think she had his computer screen on her computer. She could control his computer from hers. This technology is a software and has been available since at least 1990. She woulda known what he was watching.....

 

[pocketaccent]

I believe TA was in fact a neat freak. But for me being a neat freak is not a bad thing. It's when one pushes those standards on everyone else that it gets bad but to be neat about your own surroundings is a personal choice and in no way a personality fault unless it becomes an obsession. I do believe Travis always kept his closet as neat as we saw in the photos. I think he put his own sheets in the washer as it just sounds like something that one with what I believe to be his level of neat-freakiness would do. I also think his office would have been reasonably tidy and clean. If it was a mess, someone else made it that way, IMO.

BBM
JA may have done it to make it look like his true murderer did it. She made it as if his murderer went to his office to look for an important document that needed to disappear.

 

[RickshawFan]

I'm sorry if you feel what I'm saying is out of context. I was having a discussion with Rick. I told Rick the couple had a pattern of escalation/de-escalation/cooldown/normal/repeat (or something of that nature. I can't remember my exact words).

He said he wasn't sure there was such a pattern. I replied to him that whether we believe it or not, Travis said there was such a pattern in the May 25-26th argument. I additionally said Travis referenced that pattern in the recorded phone call when he said there were times she'd been miserable and he'd "raped" her.

Confusion abounds. Who is Rick?

 

[RickshawFan]

This is why I think she downloaded the shower pictures to her own laptop and savored them in Yreka. She knows details of that picture and really likes that particular picture. (Remember also? that she 'got' the foot picture immediately after being shown?)

Her language is strange too. Since English is not my native language, maybe I'm over interpreting but, why does she say 'He hates it. I don't know what he hates about that.' in present tense?

Yes, it was revealing that she commented to Flores how proud she was of the photo. She was clearly familiar with that photo enough to be proud of it. I found this comment startling:if Flores showed it to her, it wasn't nearly long enough to be "proud" of. IMO.

 

[RickshawFan]

She is describing her frustration that afternoon, dealing with virus in his computer.

She had to delete a lot of stuff from his laptop probably. Must have been so frustrating when his My pictures wouldn't come up...

She could have been frustrated that My Pictures didn't come up because she was planning to plant *advertiser censored*.

All this computer stuff could have been her experience after he was dead.

 

[pocketaccent]

Confusion abounds. Who is Rick?

You!:hilarious:

 

[RickshawFan]

BBM
JA may have done it to make it look like his true murderer did it. She made it as if his murderer went to his office to look for an important document that needed to disappear.

She may also have thought she got blood on stuff in the office, so she messed it up so blood wouldn't be found on his papers, etc.

 

[RickshawFan]

You!:hilarious:

Bwahaha! :hills:

No one has ever called me Rick before!

 

[pocketaccent]

JA's testimony, Day 19
She woke up:
12-12:30 pm.

Travis woke up:
1 pm.

(She forgot about her text to Chris at 12:13 pm. She lied incorrectly. Too many lies to remember when you lie too many times)

 

[Hope4More]

Did you get the "when she arrived" directly from the video? Because i recall her saying it was when she came downstairs after sex and her supposed shower.

ETA--I don't know where I got the shower thing from (maybe testimony.) I just went back and listened. She didn't say anything about her and a shower, but she didn't say it was when she arrived the furniture had been like that, either. She said it in a disjunctive way, though, if that's the right term.

Video 14 on David Lohr, around 30 minutes in.

https://youtu.be/7XN5fpDH2p4?t=28m16s

Flores was asking her about after sex. She was talking about looking at CD pics. she talked about the frustrating virus on the computer. Flores tries to ascertain what time this was with the CD's.

EF--so what time is this now, you guys are messing with the computer?
JA--Uh, I can't really remember. It was after every--after we had--done a couple other th--
EF--couple hours--hour or so later?
JA--Yeah, maybe. Afternoon. I (or I'd) just--you know--he had been cleaning his house. Uhm..........so I couldn't--I wasn't sitting on the couch. Usually, I'd just chill on the couch downstairs, you know, if no one was home. Uhm, but he had like chairs and all that stuff all over the couch like he was cleaning the floors or something. Uh, fed napoleon. I don't know if he made phone calls or not or what he was doing on the internet, but at one point, he was gonna go up and take a shower.

So I don't know, because Flores interrupted her, if she backed up or kept going in her timeline. If Enrique did not see chairs all over the furniture at 6am, then it hadn't happened yet. If Zack didn't indicate seeing it at 3pm, then it hadn't happened yet.

I really, really do think the floor cleaner and furniture is significant somehow. It puzzles me as much as where her second Helio is.

Standing caveat: virtually everything I've been thinking and writing about for many weeks now is purely speculative, as is this.


The floor cleaner. To go upstairs from T's office one walked right through/past the living room area. The upright floor cleaner was in clear view of anyone passing through that area and going up the stairs. I don't believe she'd have failed notice it.

I do believe Enrique's observations that the cleaner was not in view and that the furniture was unmoved on the morning of the 4th, and that the first time either roommate noticed these changes was when Enrique returned home at 6-6:30 on the 4th.

The most likely explanation, imo, is that the killer finished assembling the tile cleaner, and moved the dining room chairs onto the couch, and used the cleaner. We know she left traces of blood in the wash room and in the downstairs bathroom sink. Perhaps she accidentally dropped a bundle of extremely bloody clothes or the knife on the tile floor downstairs and needed to do a complete cleanup.

In any case, the additional time that would be required to complete such a cleanup is another indication that the timeline might well be wrong.


ETA.....Or, the only other possibility that makes any sense (and less so than the first): that she didn't arrive and/or enter the house until later that morning, after the roommates had left, and Travis was awake and had begun to clean his floors. In that case the roommate who returned between 3-4 didn't notice the cleaning, or...she arrived after 4pm.

 

[krkrjx]

This is why multiple sleuthers are always better than one.

It would never occur to me that "neat freak" could be seen as a negative or perjorative word. All it means to me is someone who prefers and needs order and organization, and I have no doubt that describes Travis.

It takes a need for order, as well as a lot of discipline, to get up in the morning and write out index cards outlining a set number of goals for the day, then meeting those goals everyday. I can only marvel at such a feat.

Anyway. Words matter, and it's helpful to be reminded that the same words on a page can be interpreted in many different ways.

Well, in a crime scene neatness (or lack of in a scene where it would normally be) counts. IOW, if the victim of a crime was known to keep things a certain way, and at the time they are found murdered things are not that way, it matters. It matters in most cases, not just this one. I suppose for our purposes we need to consider the addition of the word "freak" to the victim's neat label. It's the FREAK part that some take to mean above and beyond the norm.

I do not think Travis's home, including his closet, was necessarily freakishly neat...but for a young single man, it was unusually so. For that reason, I cannot figure if killer set up the floor cleaning equipment or if he had already done that. I wish I could figure it because I think that is important as far as determining how long killer was in the house after the slaughter.

Inquiring minds want to know! The timeline stated as fact but not proven as such (imo) bothers me.