Sexual Abuse of JonBenet

[Solace]

Thomas says it was Eller who said the Rs were an "influential family" and should be treated as victims, not suspects. He's the one we have to thank for the police not following SOP that morning.

Thank you Mr. Eller. He also nixed getting the dogs in the house did he not? I think the DA nixed getting the house wired, but Eller nixed having dogs come in that morning. Thomas loved Eller, but he had some problems, definitely.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Something was definitely going on that morning involving police and the DA's office and the Ramsey attorneys, which technically hadn't been hired yet. But something was going on - police were told to give them the kid glove treatment from the get go. I would not be a bit surprised to hear phone calls had been made prior to the 911 call.

It angers me so much that none of this would have went on with a family from a different social and financial background than the Ramseys. If they'd been the average middle class family, or god forbid in a lower income bracket, this case would have been solved already. But no, we need to throw standard operating procedure out the window for this influential family - influential in what way? They had all the right connections to corrupt officials, and the bank account to pay for special privileges?

And I agree. There's nothing wrong with Patsy's memory when it comes to anything unrelated to her daughter's death. She was told that "I don't recall" and "I can't remember" *cue tears* will get her off the hook of having to answer questions that make her uncomfortable.

I simply cannot understand following up on whatever PW was referring to, unless she knew whatever PW had to say was something she did not want to hear...and why would an innocent mother not want to hear whatever she could that may possibly help her answer who killed her baby and why? Why would she not want to hear whatever PW had to say?

 

[Solace]

Something was definitely going on that morning involving police and the DA's office and the Ramsey attorneys, which technically hadn't been hired yet. But something was going on - police were told to give them the kid glove treatment from the get go. I would not be a bit surprised to hear phone calls had been made prior to the 911 call.

It angers me so much that none of this would have went on with a family from a different social and financial background than the Ramseys. If they'd been the average middle class family, or god forbid in a lower income bracket, this case would have been solved already. But no, we need to throw standard operating procedure out the window for this influential family - influential in what way? They had all the right connections to corrupt officials, and the bank account to pay for special privileges?

And I agree. There's nothing wrong with Patsy's memory when it comes to anything unrelated to her daughter's death. She was told that "I don't recall" and "I can't remember" *cue tears* will get her off the hook of having to answer questions that make her uncomfortable.

I simply cannot understand following up on whatever PW was referring to, unless she knew whatever PW had to say was something she did not want to hear...and why would an innocent mother not want to hear whatever she could that may possibly help her answer who killed her baby and why? Why would she not want to hear whatever PW had to say?

She did not want to hear it, that is for sure. Fleet White and his wife are not the type to keep silent either - we can glean that from his letters and from the way she spoke to Hoffman when he and Thomas went to interview her. She was irate. Maybe she was just going to be honest with her and tell her she believed she did it and Patsy could not take it.

 

[coloradokares]

She did not want to hear it, that is for sure. Fleet White and his wife are not the type to keep silent either - we can glean that from his letters and from the way she spoke to Hoffman when he and Thomas went to interview her. She was irate. Maybe she was just going to be honest with her and tell her she believed she did it and Patsy could not take it.

:clap:

 

[Toltec]

She did not want to hear it, that is for sure. Fleet White and his wife are not the type to keep silent either - we can glean that from his letters and from the way she spoke to Hoffman when he and Thomas went to interview her. She was irate. Maybe she was just going to be honest with her and tell her she believed she did it and Patsy could not take it.

Yeah, like, "I know a thing or two about a thing or two.".

 

[k-mac]

great old thread worthy of a bump.

 

[archieil]

direct molestation = someone directly having sexual contact with her not necessary with a sexual context. I do not think it would be an aggressive "attack" on her. For truth, I do not have an idea how it could look like.

indirect = someone pushing her dirty ideas, pictures, imaginations or something so she harms herself checking them on her own. It could even be playing doctor game with knowledge about enema or similar.

With (from Encyclopedia link):
[FONT=&quot]"Acute inflammatory infiltrate is not seen", which means there were no white blood cells present at the site of injury, which means she died before the white blood cells could arrive at the site of the injury.

[/FONT]It is hard to be sure if evidence of earlier "molestation" shows signs of some type of insertion ones or twice, or it was more common. This looks rather like pushing an idea of common previous molestation than hiding signs of it.

I think that she was "abused" pre-death but the earlier evidence is rather connected with someone trying to forcefully change her thinking about sex or accidental probably self-"abuse".

Because of parents being prime suspects at the time of most opinions have been concluded I have to assume they were influenced by ongoing situation and I read them with a bit of distrust.

 

[MsFacetious]

So there's never been a debate about an actual rape correct?
Had she been actually raped by an adult male her hymen would have been torn and there would have been other damage.
Obviously something occurred the night of her death, but it appears it was more staging than anything.

So, she had a larger hymenal opening than most (some are born without a hymen or with two hymens...)
If she had never had a vaginal exam before, the larger than normal hymenal opening could just be what she was born with.

Or am I missing something? I know I've looked before and not found any sign of tears. Where did the blood come from?

 

[Tadpole12]

Or am I missing something? I know I've looked before and not found any sign of tears. Where did the blood come from?

?.....

 

[archieil]

Stick or nose but I was not checking the source of blood.

It was not a visible information on sites with information about DNA and blood on her panties. I have not noticed it.

 

[UKGuy]

So there's never been a debate about an actual rape correct?
Had she been actually raped by an adult male her hymen would have been torn and there would have been other damage.
Obviously something occurred the night of her death, but it appears it was more staging than anything.

So, she had a larger hymenal opening than most (some are born without a hymen or with two hymens...)
If she had never had a vaginal exam before, the larger than normal hymenal opening could just be what she was born with.

Or am I missing something? I know I've looked before and not found any sign of tears. Where did the blood come from?

MsFacetious,
Call it what you like, the concensus is that on the night of her death JonBenet was sexually assaulted.

Coroner Meyer opined so verbally in front of witnesses during the autopsy. JonBenet underwent a second medical genital examination to confirm this position.

To date nobody is claiming otherwise, BPD, Medical Examiners, etc. they have seen the documentary evidence, we have not.

Expert Opinion. Cyril Wecht, along with 4 other doctors concurred that the injury to hymen "dated from an old injury," including Dr. David Jones, Professor of Preventative Medicine and Biometrics at University of CO Health Sciences Center; Dr. James Monteleone, Professor of Pediatrics at St. Louis University School of Medicine (and Director of Child Protection Cardinal Glennon Children's Hospital); Dr. John McCann (see below); and Dr. Ronald Wright, former Medical Examiner, Cook County Illinois (Schiller 1999:437 according to Internet poster The Punisher). Forensic pathologist Robert Kirschner also said that the injuries to JonBenet were consistent with long-term sexual abuse. Virginia Rau of Dade County, Florida said she believed JonBenet had been sexually abused over time (Bonita Papers).
Cyril Wecht, MD. Wecht's detailed analysis of the autopsy report explains the forensic evidence supporting his view there had been prior sexual abuse.
Robert Kirschner, MD. University of Chicago, Department of Pathology.

1997 Statement. "The vaginal opening, according to Dr. Robert Kirschner of the University of Chicago's pathology department, was twice the normal size for six-year-olds. "The genital injuries indicate penetration," he says, "but probably not by a penis, and are evidence of molestation that night as well as previous molestation."

The bottom line is the acute injury might be staging but the prior healing and scarring is not !

.

 

[MsFacetious]

MsFacetious,
Call it what you like, the concensus is that on the night of her death JonBenet was sexually assaulted.

Coroner Meyer opined so verbally in front of witnesses during the autopsy. JonBenet underwent a second medical genital examination to confirm this position.

To date nobody is claiming otherwise, BPD, Medical Examiners, etc. they have seen the documentary evidence, we have not.



The bottom line is the acute injury might be staging but the prior healing and scarring is not !

.

That's exactly what I was saying. I agree she was sexually abused.
I just wanted to clarify my understanding that it wasn't penile rape.
I'm working as a paralegal/PI on a false accusation child rape case so I'm picky on these details.

So the vaginal opening was larger than normal, not the hymenal opening...
That makes far more sense to me.
I agree it wasn't a penis, or there would be tears to her hymen and other damage.
I just wanted to clarify that I was remembering correctly.

I guess the next question would be whether douching could cause what was seen?
I guess I just hope that's the only thing she was subjected to.

 

[singularity]

How am I twisting the facts? Can you tell me how John knew Burke had tears in his eyes that morning if John did not find out that Burke was awake until two years later at the Grand Jury?

Like Officer French, they saw him crying as he was leaving the house.

The more I think about this case, the more I think Steve Thomas is right on about everything. I have been back and forth full circle and now I am back to agreeing with Steve on everything from the way the murder happened to the corporal punishment and they vehemently went after him. He is not the only one who wrote a book, Hodges wrote two blaming Patsy, Wecht wrote one and it was a doozy, his theory. But they vehemently went after Thomas and I think it is because he was a detective on the case and he got too close to the truth. I don't want to sound like a conspiracy monger, but why not go after Cyril Wecht as viciously. He says there was a sex act going on that night. That is a whole lot worse than a rage accident. But know they go after Thomas. Any thoughts. I think he got very close to the what happened.

Thomas got closer than anyone and its why the Ramseys considered him such a threat. They were willing to go on national TV, risk it all, and roll the dice just so they could confront him and try to make him appear incompetent and marginalize him.

 

[UKGuy]

That's exactly what I was saying. I agree she was sexually abused.
I just wanted to clarify my understanding that it wasn't penile rape.
I'm working as a paralegal/PI on a false accusation child rape case so I'm picky on these details.

So the vaginal opening was larger than normal, not the hymenal opening...
That makes far more sense to me.
I agree it wasn't a penis, or there would be tears to her hymen and other damage.
I just wanted to clarify that I was remembering correctly.

I guess the next question would be whether douching could cause what was seen?
I guess I just hope that's the only thing she was subjected to.

MsFacetious,
Douching I doubt, since coroner Meyer opined Digital Penetration , then again maybe her abuser was fixated on douching kits?

Put another way, if the case is PDI and the staging is intended to hide whatever, then why wipe down and redress JonBenet, its an Intruder, right?

Everyone joins the dots differently, for me joined they portray the classics signs of abuse with grooming, pageants, photo modelling, etc.

Someone abused JonBenet on the night of her death, it got out of hand so JonBenet was whacked on the head, the rest is additional assault or/and staging, its difficult to untangle the staging from the acute stuff.

BTW I suspect JonBenet's killer was not the only person abusing her, thats why there has been the silence and coverup in Boulder?

.

 

[singularity]

accidental probably self-"abuse".

so she harms herself checking them on her own. It could even be playing doctor game with knowledge about enema or similar.

:thinking: Really? You really think a six year old would masturbate to such an extent? She wasn't a teen nympho locked up in her room....and even they wouldn't go that far.

Doctor games with knowledge of enemas?

The things some people will say to keep it away from the Ramseys will never cease to amaze me.

 

[archieil]

:thinking: Really? You really think a six year old would masturbate to such an extent? She wasn't a teen nympho locked up in her room....and even they wouldn't go that far.

Doctor games with knowledge of enemas?

The things some people will say to keep it away from the Ramseys will never cease to amaze me.

To what extent?

Most children will not jump from a balcony because brain is working that way.

Some will jump.

As I said. What extent?

You are not specialists, you are using information from media...

and you are stating your opinion like it was based on facts from the bible.

the irony is on purpose.

There is no source giving 100% sure separation of abuse day of the murder and previous days.

I can not sue you for being fanatics as long as you play it on your own in your bathroom.

the problem is that it seems you think that your bathroom is my bathroom and I do not want you to play with my privates when I need to use the toilet.

 

[k-mac]

archieil
I'm sorry but I have a great deal of difficulty understanding your ramblings.

you do understand that there was no intruder and its actually banned from this forum to suggest such?
there are places that welcome intruder theories but they don't belong here.

 

[BoldBear]

It just occurred to me that I overlooked part of the chronic sexual molestation issue. It doesn't have much weight on the case, but it adds more possibilities.

We all expect any possible previous sexual molestation to be the case of the molester convincing the child not to talk. What if the molestation was caught by an adult who was caring for her. What if it wasn't reported? What if an adult discovered the problem and made threats to the molester? What if they thought they could keep the child away from the molester? And what if the molester pleaded not to be turned in? "I've never done this before. It could ruin my life. Please." Kind of the way Weinstein pleaded and swore on his 'children'.

Any parent can blame themselves. Could this carry the same shame for a parent that a rape victim might feel? A caregiver might feel sympathy to the molester or feel shame that it happened on their watch.

That's a sickening idea. If child molestation goes unreported, the molester is free to go out and do it again.

 

[UKGuy]

It just occurred to me that I overlooked part of the chronic sexual molestation issue. It doesn't have much weight on the case, but it adds more possibilities.

We all expect any possible previous sexual molestation to be the case of the molester convincing the child not to talk. What if the molestation was caught by an adult who was caring for her. What if it wasn't reported? What if an adult discovered the problem and made threats to the molester? What if they thought they could keep the child away from the molester? And what if the molester pleaded not to be turned in? "I've never done this before. It could ruin my life. Please." Kind of the way Weinstein pleaded and swore on his 'children'.

Any parent can blame themselves. Could this carry the same shame for a parent that a rape victim might feel? A caregiver might feel sympathy to the molester or feel shame that it happened on their watch.

That's a sickening idea. If child molestation goes unreported, the molester is free to go out and do it again.

BoldBear,
Some folks think this is what happened. The molester is still out there since nobody was put in the dock!

.

 

[BBB167893]

It just occurred to me that I overlooked part of the chronic sexual molestation issue. It doesn't have much weight on the case, but it adds more possibilities.

We all expect any possible previous sexual molestation to be the case of the molester convincing the child not to talk. What if the molestation was caught by an adult who was caring for her. What if it wasn't reported? What if an adult discovered the problem and made threats to the molester? What if they thought they could keep the child away from the molester? And what if the molester pleaded not to be turned in? "I've never done this before. It could ruin my life. Please." Kind of the way Weinstein pleaded and swore on his 'children'.

Any parent can blame themselves. Could this carry the same shame for a parent that a rape victim might feel? A caregiver might feel sympathy to the molester or feel shame that it happened on their watch.

That's a sickening idea. If child molestation goes unreported, the molester is free to go out and do it again.

Sadly, the scenario you describe is not uncommon.