Sheila and Katherine Lyon-sisters missing since 1975 - #1

[Marilynilpa]

The Tape Recorder Man (TRM) has been mentioned and discussed quite a few times in this thread. He was seen talking to young girls on at least four occasions at Wheaton Plaza before the girls disappeared. Known dates of those sightings are 28 (Friday) February 1975, 1 (Saturday) March 1975, 24 (Monday) and 25 (Tuesday) March 1975. Each sighting was at around noon, or in the early afternoon. There may have been more sightings recorded in Police files.

TRM - or his double - was seen undertaking the same activity in at least four other shopping centers on other dates: on 22 March (Saturday) at both Iverson Mall, and Marlow Heights Shopping Center (two malls adjacent to each other on Route 5 in Prince Georges County, Maryland), At a date prior to 25 March 1975 at a Bowie, MD mall, and at White Oak Shopping Center (Montgomery County) in February or early March 1975.

The sighting at Wheaton Plaza on 25 March 1975 is the most significant in this case, because that is when a young boy and his buddy saw TRM speaking with Sheila and Katherine LYON. It was his description and account which led to the composite drawing of TRM, and subsequently to the other reported sightings.

The witness who saw TRM at Wheaton Plaza on 28 February 1975 recently described his encounter with the man to me in this manner:

"It was a windy, cold day, and I had taken a late lunch break from work to go to the Wheaton Plaza mall with my girlfriend. We were there to shop for a pair of boots. It was an open/outside mall back then and we were walking in a brisk manner toward the shoe store. I saw a man approaching us head on, and I thought that he was looking at my girl friend. He was carrying a briefcase and tape recorder, and I thought that he was from the press and wondered where the cameras were. I thought that he might want to interview us or something."

"A moment before walking right into us, he abruptly turned and walked at an angle away, without saying 'Excuse me'. I thought it rude of him, and I stopped and turned to look at him walking away. He was approaching a young mother with two small children, and I watched as he bent down to speak with one of the little girls. Seeing him from behind, I noticed that he had a "ducktail" style haircut and that his hair was gray or graying. Because of the wind, the hair had blown down into his eyes. I tried to hear what he was saying, but could not make it out."

"My thought was that this guy was some kind of a pervert, and I made a remark to that effect to my girlfriend. I wanted to walk over to him to see what he was up to, but my girlfriend said that she was cold and wanted to go inside. We continued on toward the shoe store. I looked back and saw him still speaking with the little girl. As we got to the shoe store, I again looked back. The woman and her girls had left, but the Tape Recorder Man was still there, now standing with a smirk on his face. He then lit a cigarrette."

"We went into the shoe store, only long enough to ask if they had a certain type of boot, and learning that they did not, we immediately left. I looked again for TRM, but he was nowhere to be seen."

"The man was not tall, probably under 6 feet, but he was wearing the type of shoes or boots with higher heels that were popular back then. He had on a brown sport coat or suitcoat with brown or tan pants that had long, flare type bottoms which covered most of his shoes/boots. He had on a yellow dress shirt, but no tie. I recall seeing him best in profile when I turned to look at him talking with the little girl. I recall a prominent rise or bump to the bridge of his nose, and I will always remember that tight lipped smirk."

"On another occasion (February or March 1975) I was going to White Oak Shopping Center to cash a check and to straighten out a problem with a credit account. It was about 3 or 4PM, and I was hurrying to get to the credit union before they closed that day. On my way in to the Sears entrance, I saw a man in a black suit, with a tape recorder in hand, speaking to a heavyset girl of about 14 who was holding a basketball. As I approached, he backed up behind a pillar, and I passed between them. Because of my haste, I did not linger or watch them, but made a mental note to look for them on my way out of the store. When I left, I looked for them, but they were both gone. I do not recall if it was before or after I had seen TRM at Wheaton Plaza, and I don't recall connecting the two events at the time. I do know that the White Oak incident was before the girls went missing."

"When the sketch of TRM appeared in the newspapers and on television, I called the police to tell them about the man that I had seen. They took my statement, and I never heard from them again."

"Then, in 1987, when news reports came out about Police interest in Fred Coffey, I again called Montgomery County Police and went down to the station to relate the story of my encounter with TRM. They showed me a color photo of a man, which I recognized as a VITRO Laboratory ID badge photo. They asked me if this was the man I had seen. The man in the photo had dark hair. He looked very similar to my recollection of TRM, but I could not positively state that it was the same man, because I recalled TRM having had gray or graying hair. I asked the police if they could make a copy of the photo with gray hair, but they told me that they couldn't do that. Some time later, that same photo appeared in the news paper, but in black and white, and he was identified as being Fred Coffey."

While this is very interesting, I'm wondering if this witness really had such a keen eye for detail, or if he "embellished" his story to some extent.

This whole tape recorder thing puzzles me. Although it provided an excuse for TRM to approach girls, it was a risky endeavor, and one which he apparently undertook more than once. He had to have known that his suspicious activities might be reported to the police, and yet he continued.

 

[Richard]

While this is very interesting, I'm wondering if this witness really had such a keen eye for detail, or if he "embellished" his story to some extent.

This whole tape recorder thing puzzles me. Although it provided an excuse for TRM to approach girls, it was a risky endeavor, and one which he apparently undertook more than once. He had to have known that his suspicious activities might be reported to the police, and yet he continued.

I have spoken with this witness at length on several occasions. I don't get the impression that he is trying to embellish anything. He remembers feeling that there was something "not right" about TRM, and made a point to observe and remember him. His recollection of the incident at Wheaton Plaza came back to him in a very sad way when he heard about the Lyon girls, and then when he heard about the TRM suspect seen talking with them. He has always felt sorry that he didn't take the time to approach TRM and talk to him, or to call police and report him.

He has followed the case very closely since that day on 25 March 1975 when the girls went missing. While one might think that reading newspaper reports or seeing photos might influence his memory of what he saw, I feel that he is being honest and accurate in what he remembers, and that he has kept his personal memory of the event separate from accounts of others.

I was struck by the way that his statement includes many details of what he personally was doing that day, such as the type of boots he was seeking on one occasion, and details of his credit problems with his account at the other mall. It was an account of how we all live our lives, being caught up in our own day to day details, while sometimes becoming a witnesses to an event.

Eyewitness testimony is often the least reliable type of evidence. Some people have an eye and memory for detail, while others do not. This person seems to be someone who can remember past events very clearly. To assist his memory, he has always kept a date book or calendar, in which he writes all of his appointments - and he has kept all of those books going back for years.

It should be noted that even if this witness gave a flawless identification of the individual with the tape recorder, his testimony would only tend to support the fact that there was a strange man hanging around the mall days prior to the girls' disappearance. He did not see TRM on that day, or with the Lyon girls. The link would have to be a positive identification of TRM by the boy who saw him with the girls.

The problem with the TRM sightings is that hindsight is 20/20. Nobody reported the Tape Recorder Man prior to the girls' disappearance, although many remembered seeing him (or his double) after the fact. Nobody saw him after 25 March, even though news reports of TRM being seen talking to the girls did not appear until 1 April.

Even if someone HAD reported TRM to mall security or police (prior to the girls' disappearance), they probably would not have done anything about it. He was in a public place, not hurting anyone or breaking any laws. He was obviously a smooth talker and probably would have charmed any suspicious police officer who questioned him. More likely, he would have quickly disappeared as he did on other occassions.

What he was doing might be considered risky today, but was probably meant by him to appear a harmless passtime or job. Although seen as weird or "not right" by this witness and by some others, his activity aparently did not warrent police involvement in their minds. If his activities had been noticed by police and if he had been questioned once or twice by them, he would probably have dropped his act in favor of something else. But that fact that he succeeded at it on numerous occasions, may have emboldened him to make his move when he thought the time was right.

TRM could have been trolling for victims, but he might also have been getting a thrill from just talking to young girls.

 

[Marilynilpa]

Thanks for the information about the witness. You're right, some people have a keen eye for details while others don't. It certainly appears this witness believes TRM was Fred Coffey.

Lots of people must have seen TRM and been curious about what he was doing. While people don't always notice what goes on around them at a mall, it seems that a man approaching kids with a tape recorder would catch their attention. He approached a woman with two young children, so you'd think that woman would be able to describe him. I wonder if she ever came forward to tell the police about her encounter with TRM.

 

[reportertype]

Just a note about TMR -- I carry a notepad a pen for a living -- occasionally a tape recorder -- and have found that people seemingly accept those items as proof that I am who I say I am -- at least with "ordinary" people I've interviewed.

If people thought he was a businessman or doing some kind of work, those around may not have given it much thought. As for kids, they usually thought being asked questions was cool. It definitely put most of them at ease.

 

[Marilynilpa]

Just a note about TMR -- I carry a notepad a pen for a living -- occasionally a tape recorder -- and have found that people seemingly accept those items as proof that I am who I say I am -- at least with "ordinary" people I've interviewed.

If people thought he was a businessman or doing some kind of work, those around may not have given it much thought. As for kids, they usually thought being asked questions was cool. It definitely put most of them at ease.

I agree, most kids would think it was cool to have an adult ask them questions. I imagine that's what TMR counted on. In fact, he might have been able to lure the Lyons sisters by telling them that since they had been so helpful, he had something he wanted to give them to show his appreciation.

 

[marylandmissing]

Keep in mind that there have been very many case officers assigned to the Lyon Sisters case over the years, and that police files contain volumes of tips, reports, etc over the past 30 years. These two investigators were probably in grade school or high school in 1975. So their knowledge of the case comes from their considerable study of the old files, rather than from first hand knowledge.

I do know Sheila and Kate's brother Jay is a Montgomery County detective, but I believe he works in the robbery division...

 

[Thrasher]

It is interesting to see this kind of account come forward, after 30 years. As I have said, I have followed the case closely for 30 years, but other than in this discussion and my personal contacts, I have found very little new except here. I don't know how much to rely on this account, but it is a reasonable assumption that this is the same man, and a reasonable hypothesis that the man was Fred Coffey.

As Richard points out, at most the account places someone like Coffey at Wheaton Plaza, acting like TRM, a month before the disappearance. I would think if anyone could tie TRM to Coffey it would be the girls' brother, who saw them talking to TRM that day and certainly would have had the opportunity to see Coffey in 1987, as he was then a detective for MCP. But just working with the hypothesis that TRM was Fred Coffey, and therefore, almost certainly, he was involved. After 30 years and 30,000 leads, this is as reasonable a hypothesis as any. I think the primary concern at this time (certainly for the Lyons) is not making a criminal case, but making at least some of the facts known, and achieving what is usually called "closure." I have the following questions, that I direct mainly toward Richard, who seems to be actively investigating the case:

After 1987, when his name came up, until today, have the police truly exhausted all means left to trace Coffey's actions and movements prior to March 25, 1975? Obviously much of this would have been lost after 12 years; can we assume the police have exhausted all such paper trails? Have any of the other arrests and investigations of Coffey turned up anything that could be material evidence in this case? If he was involved, one would think so, especially with the sophisticated forensic tools that were not available in 1975, or even in 1987.

Do the Montgomery County Police have any means or authority to negotiate with Coffey and his attorney? I realize there was not enough to hold him in 1987, but could he not be offered immunity (he is already incarcerated for life), or some other incentive just to tell what he knows? He would not even have to confess; just indicate where material evidence could be found. Has anyone had the opportunity to look at Coffey in a line-up for an identification (I realize that would not make a case, but it could allow the Police to focus its energy in this direction).

 

[Marilynilpa]

It is interesting to see this kind of account come forward, after 30 years. As I have said, I have followed the case closely for 30 years, but other than in this discussion and my personal contacts, I have found very little new except here. I don't know how much to rely on this account, but it is a reasonable assumption that this is the same man, and a reasonable hypothesis that the man was Fred Coffey.

As Richard points out, at most the account places someone like Coffey at Wheaton Plaza, acting like TRM, a month before the disappearance. I would think if anyone could tie TRM to Coffey it would be the girls' brother, who saw them talking to TRM that day and certainly would have had the opportunity to see Coffey in 1987, as he was then a detective for MCP. But just working with the hypothesis that TRM was Fred Coffey, and therefore, almost certainly, he was involved. After 30 years and 30,000 leads, this is as reasonable a hypothesis as any. I think the primary concern at this time (certainly for the Lyons) is not making a criminal case, but making at least some of the facts known, and achieving what is usually called "closure." I have the following questions, that I direct mainly toward Richard, who seems to be actively investigating the case:

After 1987, when his name came up, until today, have the police truly exhausted all means left to trace Coffey's actions and movements prior to March 25, 1975? Obviously much of this would have been lost after 12 years; can we assume the police have exhausted all such paper trails? Have any of the other arrests and investigations of Coffey turned up anything that could be material evidence in this case? If he was involved, one would think so, especially with the sophisticated forensic tools that were not available in 1975, or even in 1987.

Do the Montgomery County Police have any means or authority to negotiate with Coffey and his attorney? I realize there was not enough to hold him in 1987, but could he not be offered immunity (he is already incarcerated for life), or some other incentive just to tell what he knows? He would not even have to confess; just indicate where material evidence could be found. Has anyone had the opportunity to look at Coffey in a line-up for an identification (I realize that would not make a case, but it could allow the Police to focus its energy in this direction).

If Coffey is TRM and if he is the one who abducted the Lyons girls, he may have used the tape recorder ploy at other times to approach and abduct young girls. This was obviously a successful ruse for him. Other than the TRM sightings connected to this case, has anyone ever run across a reference to a man with a tape recorder connected to disappearances in other cities?

I believe the sightings of TRM prior to the Lyons sisters' disappearance may have been "trial runs" - TRM wanted to test the waters and see if the tape recorder ploy would work, and also to see if he could get away with it without security or police being called. By the time he abducted the Lyons sisters, he had his routine down pat.

One thing really nags at me - the second "TRM" in Prince Georges County, Maryland. The police obviously didn't consider him to be connected to the Lyons' sisters, but it sure is a big coincidence that two "TRM" were in that area during that time period.

 

[georgiagirl]

Is this Fred Coffey? This guy gives me the creeps.....


http://webapps6.doc.state.nc.us/apps/offender/offend1?DOCNUM=0081135&SENTENCEINFO=no&SHOWPHOTO=yes&numtimesin=1

 

[Richard]

It is interesting to see this kind of account come forward, after 30 years. As I have said, I have followed the case closely for 30 years, but other than in this discussion and my personal contacts, I have found very little new except here. I don't know how much to rely on this account, but it is a reasonable assumption that this is the same man, and a reasonable hypothesis that the man was Fred Coffey.

As Richard points out, at most the account places someone like Coffey at Wheaton Plaza, acting like TRM, a month before the disappearance. I would think if anyone could tie TRM to Coffey it would be the girls' brother, who saw them talking to TRM that day and certainly would have had the opportunity to see Coffey in 1987, as he was then a detective for MCP. But just working with the hypothesis that TRM was Fred Coffey, and therefore, almost certainly, he was involved. After 30 years and 30,000 leads, this is as reasonable a hypothesis as any. I think the primary concern at this time (certainly for the Lyons) is not making a criminal case, but making at least some of the facts known, and achieving what is usually called "closure." I have the following questions, that I direct mainly toward Richard, who seems to be actively investigating the case:

After 1987, when his name came up, until today, have the police truly exhausted all means left to trace Coffey's actions and movements prior to March 25, 1975? Obviously much of this would have been lost after 12 years; can we assume the police have exhausted all such paper trails? Have any of the other arrests and investigations of Coffey turned up anything that could be material evidence in this case? If he was involved, one would think so, especially with the sophisticated forensic tools that were not available in 1975, or even in 1987.

Do the Montgomery County Police have any means or authority to negotiate with Coffey and his attorney? I realize there was not enough to hold him in 1987, but could he not be offered immunity (he is already incarcerated for life), or some other incentive just to tell what he knows? He would not even have to confess; just indicate where material evidence could be found. Has anyone had the opportunity to look at Coffey in a line-up for an identification (I realize that would not make a case, but it could allow the Police to focus its energy in this direction).

I should emphasize first, that although I have spoken with Montgomery County Police Detectives concerning this case on a number of occasions, I do not have access to their files, nor can I speak in any official manner regarding their beliefs, policies or actions regarding this case.

That said, I think I can assure you that they have a strong interest in Mr. Coffey, even today.

Regarding Coffey's whereabouts and travels in the years preceeding 1975, Coffey was on active duty with the Navy from 1962 at age 17 until September 1974. Investigators have access to his Navy record and therefor have an idea of where he was stationed, when he was on leave, and where he went on official travel during those years. Due to Federal Privacy Act regulations, and because it is an active case, Police would normally not release that sort of information. Had they to allowed me to view those records, I would refrain from posting such information for the same reasons.

I would not say that police have "exhausted" their search for leads in this case. They seem very inteterested in pursuing any and all leads that come their way. Although, as you say, paper trails do tend to get destroyed or lost over the years. Such things as auto registrations, car sales, motel registers, employment records, etc. etc. and even buildings tend to disappear over time.

Just a general comment regarding possible evidence obtained and potential legal wranglings or deals: The key word would be Jurisdiction. The District Attorney of one state cannot offer immunity in matters involving crimes committed in another state, without express consent and agreement of the authorities in that other state. To go to a man already serving a life sentence, and offering him "immunity" from prosecution elsewhere might not be very compelling, unless such prosecution could win him the death penalty.

Is there possibly some evidence in police files or storage that would tie a convicted child murderer to the Lyon sisters case? I would say yes, there is a possibility, but I do not know for sure. It would certinly be a good thing to search in such a place.

I would like to clarify one statement that you made in your post. To my knowledge, Jay Lyon, brother to Sheila and Katherine, did in fact see them eating pizza at the Orange Bowl Restaurant on the afternoon of 25 March 1975, shortly before they disappeared. However, he was NOT the boy who reported seeing the girls talking with TRM that day.

The boy who saw the girls talking to TRM was a neighbor of theirs who knew them because they rode the same school bus. In fact, he waited every morning with them at the same bus stop, so he knew them fairly well. He related his information to the Montgomery County Police on Friday afternoon, 28 March 1975 and was questioned at the station for about two and a half hours. During that time, he assisted PFC D. Morton in his rendition of the TRM sketch. The boy, called "Jimmy" (not his real name) in a front page interview with a Washington Star reporter, described what he saw and mentioned that he was there with another boy (not named in the interview) who also saw the TRM. Besides this interview, "Jimmy" also appeared on one Washington DC TV station during a news cast.

 

[Richard]

If Coffey is TRM and if he is the one who abducted the Lyons girls, he may have used the tape recorder ploy at other times to approach and abduct young girls. This was obviously a successful ruse for him. Other than the TRM sightings connected to this case, has anyone ever run across a reference to a man with a tape recorder connected to disappearances in other cities?

I believe the sightings of TRM prior to the Lyons sisters' disappearance may have been "trial runs" - TRM wanted to test the waters and see if the tape recorder ploy would work, and also to see if he could get away with it without security or police being called. By the time he abducted the Lyons sisters, he had his routine down pat.

One thing really nags at me - the second "TRM" in Prince Georges County, Maryland. The police obviously didn't consider him to be connected to the Lyons' sisters, but it sure is a big coincidence that two "TRM" were in that area during that time period.

It is hard to say which came first, the thrill of interviewing children on tape, or the idea to use the interview as a tool for abduction. I have a feeling that it was more the latter, with any thrill being only his anticipation of his ultimate goal.

I have always felt that the person who abducted the Lyon sisters was experienced at it and felt very confident of himself to have abducted not one, but two girls from a crowded shopping center in the middle of the afternoon.

When you refer to the "big coincidence" of there being two such people, I have to agree. I think that there is enough "big coincidence" with just one such character hanging around Wheaton Plaza who JUST HAPPENS to disappear at exactly the same time that the Lyon sisters do.

 

[Marilynilpa]

It is hard to say which came first, the thrill of interviewing children on tape, or the idea to use the interview as a tool for abduction. I have a feeling that it was more the latter, with any thrill being only his anticipation of his ultimate goal.

I have always felt that the person who abducted the Lyon sisters was experienced at it and felt very confident of himself to have abducted not one, but two girls from a crowded shopping center in the middle of the afternoon.

When you refer to the "big coincidence" of there being two such people, I have to agree. I think that there is enough "big coincidence" with just one such character hanging around Wheaton Plaza who JUST HAPPENS to disappear at exactly the same time that the Lyon sisters do.

I have no doubts that whoever abducted these girls was experienced at it. Not only did he snatch two girls from the shopping center in the middle of the day, but he also made a quick getaway. I believe he rehearsed this - he was able to get the girls out of the mall and into his vehicle without raising suspicions, and I don't think that was just a "lucky" break for him. I'd be willing to bet there had been at least one "trial run", where he checked out the parking lot, the various entrances/exits from the parking lot to the street, and the various entrances into the mall. By the time he abducted the Lyons sisters, he probably knew which exit from the mall would work to his advantage, and which exit from the parking lot he needed to take to make his getaway.

 

[Thrasher]

Well, if it was Coffey he was very experienced at it, as he had already abducted many children by this time, and I remember reading that he had used some gimmick (in one case, fishing gear) to lure a child. The difficult part is not so much getting away - it was busy that day - but obviously convincing these girls to go willingly.

I am aware of the jurisdictional problems, but I don't see why NC officials would mind MD officials negotiating on matters unrelated to the convictions for which he is incarcerated. I am glad to hear that the police are still very interested in Coffey, but again - what can they yet do, or have they had any means to progress in the investigation of him in the 18 years since they determined they had no grounds to hold him.

And I think Richard is right - the news reports at the time mentioned that Jay had seen them. But the TRM was seen in front of the Orange Bowl, where they had eaten. I thought that some reports had Jay reporting seeing them talking to the man, but apparently the reports did not claim that, and I have not heard that personally.

 

[Richard]

Below is the text of a front page article which appeared in The Washington Star newspaper on Thursday, April 3, 1975. It is an interview with the boy who saw and described The Tape Recorder Man talking with Sheila and Katherine Lyon on the afternoon of 25 March 1975, at Wheaton Plaza shortly before they disappeared.

The headline is a bit misleading, because the girls were actually seen a short time later by their brother, Jay and possibly a little later by another boy.

Aside from "Jimmy's" detailed statement and description to the Montgomery County Police on 28 March 1975, this is as close as it comes to a first hand account of exactly what he saw and heard in regard to TRM and the Lyon sisters. To my knowledge, it is the only newspaper interview that he gave.

Also interviewed in this article is Davis Morton, the Montgomery County Police officer who drew the two composite sketches of the Tape Recorder Man (TRM). A print of the second or "updated drawing" was included with the story.

After reporting on their interview with Jimmy and his mother, and with Davis Morton, the article shifted theme to give an account of what people were saying about the case and about how they were all reconsidering safety and security issues at Wheaton Plaza.

The Washington Star newspaper went out of business in 1982, and to my knowledge, there are no "on line" archives of their articles. I obtained a copy of this interview from a microfilm file in a library.

I typed it as it appeared in the paper, with the exception that I put x's in place of a printed street address, so as not to violate any privacy protocol.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Eyewitness: Last Time the Lyon Girls Were Seen
Thursday, April 3, 1975
By Mary Ann Kuhn and Rebecca Leet
Washington Star Staff Writers

Jimmy sat in a blue armchair in the living room of his family's Kensington home, letting his 13-year-old legs with their high-top sneakers stretch out on the turquoise rug as he talked publicly for the first time about the man he saw with the missing Lyon sisters last week at Wheaton Plaza.

Jimmy is the teen-ager who provided Montgomery County police with a description of the 50 to 60-year-old man he saw talking to the girls, Sheila, 13, and Katherine, 11, daughters of John and Mary Lyon of 3xxx Plyers Mill Road.

With his help, police drew a sketch of the man's face which has been published in newspapers and shown on television. Police have kept Jimmy's identity a secret. Jimmy (not his real name) did not seek publicity. His parents, fearful of retaliation, requested that his real name not be used.

Last night, four women who called police saying they recognized the man in the sketch went to the Wheaton Police station to offer help in drawing a new composite.

According to Pfc. Davis Morton, a robbery squad detective who does composites "to help out whenever it's needed," the 13-year-old's description of the man was accurate.

"I showed the composite to four women (separately) and it seemed to be basically the guy they had seen," he said. "They suggested a few minor changes, but I don't know if they would even be noticeable."

"Sometimes you're close and sometimes you're way off (in making a composite) but I feel better about this one because of the other witnesses."

"It was about 1 or 2 o'clock." Jimmy related. "I was out with a friend. We were down near ... um ... Peoples (Drug Store) and the Orange Bowl (pizza carryout) and we saw the two girls talking to a man with a tape recorder."

"I heard the man ask one question: ' Are any of you two involved in sports?'"

"And then ... um ... 30 seconds later I looked back. He was walking away toward Wards (Montgomery Ward) and the girls were walking the other way toward the fountain."

Jimmy stopped talking. Up to then, the words had tumbled out. He sat there and crossed his hands over his maroon lettered football jersey.

His parents didn't say anything.

His mother sat on the sofa with an untouched glass of red wine on the next table while her husband sat across the room with the newspaper opened across his folded legs. Jimmy was asked to give more details about what he had seen.

He smiled when he told how he and his friend had joked about going over to the man and asking him to interview them so they could get on television.

"I said to my friend, 'Hey, look over there. I wonder what's going on. It looks like a reporter.' We thought he was some kind of a reporter," Jimmy explained. "We were joking around that maybe we should go over there and get him to interview us."

"The man was holding a microphone in his hand between the girls, and asking questions. He had a tan briefcase on the ground. It was one of those hard ones that sat up." the boy said, adding that the tape recorder was sitting next to the man, out of the briefcase.

The man was sitting on the ledge next to an island of (illegible word - bushes?) in the middle of the plaza, Jimmy said. People sit on the ledge to rest during their shopping sprees or to eat a snack or pizza from the carryout.

Jimmy said he had never seen the man before or since. He said the man was well dressed in a brown suit.

Jimmy, who lives several blocks from the Lyons said he and his friend rode their bikes up to the plaza that day "to see friends. We just went up there to ride around. We had nothing else to do so we decided to go up there and look around."

Jimmy's mother said that right after the news came out that the Lyon girls were missing, her son told her he had seen them at the plaza. But it wasn't until Friday that he mentioned anything about the man with a tape recorder, she said.

"On Friday, he said that the girls were talking to a reporter. I said, 'How do you know he was a reporter?' He said because he had a microphone. I told him that could have been anybody and notified police."

At the police station on Friday, Jimmy said, the police "had me look through two files of mug shots."

(The beginning of the next sentence seems to have been left out of the printed article)

... in a while, a police officer would ask me if everything was all right (with the sketch). I'd tell them what was right and what was wrong." Jimmy said he thought the sketch was a good likeness. His mother said he was at the police station 2 1/2 hours that day.

Jimmy's friend who was with him the day the Lyon girls were seen with the man at the plaza verified virtually everything Jimmy said except that he said he did not hear any of the conversation between the man and the girls.

"I hope they find them." Jimmy said.

Meanwhile, fewer kids are "hanging" at Wheaton Plaza in the days since the Lyon sisters disappeared.

"Kensington, Md., isn't all that exciting a place, " 15-year-old Rachel Farr explained the mall's magnetism for teen-agers yesterday. "This (the plaza) is the best place to hang."

But now, "There's a kind of eerie feeling around the mall.... You can really see it," said 16-year-old Eric Provost, assistant manager at the Orange Bowl. "There's less talk. Less fooling around. When somegody goes up now (to the plaza) they have a reason."

Karen McGhee, 11, said that when her friend's coat fell as they were walking through the plaza yesterday and a man stopped to point it out, "I got my lungs ready to scream if he grabbed her."

A spokesman in the plaza manager's office said calls have come in from people wanting to know if it is safe to come there and shop.

If Montgomery County teen-agers are not gathering at the mall, they also are not running away from home as much since the Lyon girls disappeared, according to the county's Juvenile Bureau, which is investigating the case.

After eight tense days, the investigation of the Lyon girls' disappearance is settling into the tiring, colorless and seemingly endless routine of tracking down one fruitless lead after another - remembering, the police often note, that it may take only one good lead to resolve the mystery.

Yesterday, specially trained tracking dogs from Philadelphia spent the morning sniffing the area behind Oakland Terrace Elementary School and Newport Junior High, where the girls are students, in a re-check of an area officers already have searched twice.

Police said the dogs turned up nothing. Their two day role in the continuing drama ended as have so many apparently hopeful starts - quietly, uneventfully, sadly.

"We don't have anything," one officer said yesterday. "We're right back where we started."

 

[mere]

Back in March DCNationalsfan claimed to have had pictures from Wheaton Plaza on March 25th 1975. Since then she has not come back to WS. She also mentioned her professor Dr. Phil Geraci helped look through the developed pictures for the girls. (the thread is on pg 5)Is there anyway an administrator could contact this member?

 

[Richard]

Back in March DCNationalsfan claimed to have had pictures from Wheaton Plaza on March 25th 1975. Since then she has not come back to WS. She also mentioned her professor Dr. Phil Geraci helped look through the developed pictures for the girls. (the thread is on pg 5)Is there anyway an administrator could contact this member?

One of the Forum members, Fronkenstein, found that Dr Geraci is still teaching at U of MD, but he did not return any e-mails. Fronkenstein was able to locate DCNationalsFan and she told him that she would try to find the negatives and contact sheets. Montgomery County Police have made attempts to contact her as well. I do not know the current status of that lead.

It has been mentioned that such photographic evidence might show the abductor(s) in Wheaton Plaza. If any of those photos were found to contain an identifiable image of a possible suspect, it would be very important and a huge break in the case.

 

[Thrasher]

I remember reading this article, and similar ones in the Washington Post. I think it has always been significant for two reasons: it describes the man and the girls parting and walking in opposite directions – the man walking in the direction of the girls’ route home. If accurate, it means that they did not leave with him at that time (the most logical scenario for abduction) but that he met or intercepted them later; perfectly plausible, but difficult to pull off – we have noted previously how difficult it would be to abduct them in the Drumm/McComas area. Also, once they thought about it, I think these girls would be much more likely to hesitate to meet him later, or they would at least tell someone about it who. So if TRM is the abductor, he somehow used the information he had to meet or intercept them later, a very difficult scenario for investigators to reconstruct or find evidence of.

The interview also casts the reasonable doubt that has always existed about Coffey – “Jimmy” provided very thorough guidance to a police artist, and came up with a description (matching other witnesses) that it was a man considerably older than Coffey was at that time. Not an insurmountable problem – Coffey could certainly had disguised himself to some degree - but cause for hesitation. I assume “Jimmy” was consulted again in 1987, but I don’t know how reliable his identification would be then.

The maddening thing about this case over thirty years is that it is very hard to come up with a theory that covers even the few scattered facts that we have. We cannot rule out the possibility that TRM was not involved at all, but was a separate miscreant who was there coincidentally – and for his own reasons and aversion to the police never came forward to identify himself, or ever worked the DC area shopping centers again.

A few years ago I talked to someone close to the Lyon family who, by coincidence, had shared a 10-hour flight next to one of the principal police investigators in the case (now retired), and this person claimed to have learned from this detective a great deal about the case hat was never made public, and some not even known to the Lyons themselves. I have reason to believe this person is sincere and honest. I don’t think there is anything sinister involved on the part of police; just a combination of sensitivity/confidentiality concerns at the time, overwork, and perceived public indifference to these details. But for this reason I hope that people like Richard will keep asking the questions, because my thinking is that a break at this point is most likely to come from some of this previously neglected or undisclosed information.

 

[Mr. E]

this person claimed to have learned from this detective a great deal about the case hat was never made public, and some not even known to the Lyons themselves.

Do you have any details?

 

[shadowangel]

Just a general observation...Does it really make sense for LE to still withhold details in a 30 year-old case? Details that, if read by the right person, may finally resolve the case? Or at least bring the lost little ones home?Just being cynical again...Its a guy thing, I've been told.

 

[Thrasher]

Shadowangel makes my point. I am not suggesting any incompetence or anything sinister. A lot of those details are no doubt useless now, and would be available to the Lyons if they were interested. I know a few details about the case that haven't been made public, but I think they were stated to me in confidence and I don't think they would help solve the case. But what I am suggesting is that there would be value in publicizing a broad case history, because some one of these facts may well trigger something with a reader. There has always been reluctance to publicize some information, because it brings out the lunatics and may violate privacy or cause pain to the family. But I think issues of privacy should not be much of a factor after 30 years.

After the flurry of attention in the spring of 1975, the police have only publicized this twice - in 1982, when the Mileski yard was dug up, and 1987, when Coffey was questioned. I tend to think more information would be useful. We see here that just asking the police questions, as Richard does, yields potentially useful information - suppose DCNationalsfan finds those negatives?