Sheila and Katherine Lyon-sisters missing since 1975 - #2
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SurrealisticSlumbers
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That documentary was crazy. I got chills when they showed the actual crime scene, or where they believe one or both girls were actually killed. That basement is the stuff of nightmares. If I were the current homeowner, I'd want to move; too much bad juju in that house and especially the basement. Still, I felt the documentary raised even MORE questions (for me, personally).
1) DNA. Like, okay, they were unable to obtain mtDNA from the bone fragments excavated at the bonfire's location, so they still don't have anything they can definitively prove as being a "body." However, when they discovered the large volume of dried blood in the basement... were they not able to extract one tiny microscopic DNA sample to test and see if it could be positively matched to either or both Sheila and Kate? I know the killer(s) thoroughly cleaned up the blood, but a lot of it obviously got absorbed by the concrete floor and walls, enough to show up clear as day when the police sprayed it with Luminol. Maybe I'm ignorant of the science behind it, but can't DNA get extracted from dried blood, or would it simply be too degraded? Unless I missed something, I didn't catch if they had established that the blood found at the crime scene belonged to either or both the Lyon sisters. They just said that they wondered if (as put forth by Lloyd) Kate had really tried to get away, and was killed there in the basement in retaliation. The detective didn't actually state as fact that it was Kate's blood they had found, which would've meant Lloyd was actually telling the truth, and she'd truly been killed in that basement.
2) The cemetery on Taylor's Mountain. Very little was said about what they uncovered there. The film jumped from the scene showing police and volunteers excavating there, to the wiretap recording of one of the cousins telling her mom that "they wouldn't find them [the girls] there." So, did they just completely give up digging in that area upon hearing that, confident that they were wasting their time? I never heard anything more about the efforts to locate remains in the cemetery after that point. Near the end of the film, one of the detectives muses about Sheila maybe having been given a "proper burial," a.k.a. NOT killed and dismembered in the basement (as Kate supposedly was) and then thrown into the bonfire, but he just sort of trails off, the credits roll, and we never hear anything further about what was uncovered at the cemetery. Extremely aggravating. You'd think they'd unearth some caskets corresponding to the gravestones - as I can clearly see them in the footage. Yet, I have to ask, were any human remains they found buried there actually lab tested and ruled out as being those of a young girl approx. 10-12? They could have fleshed that part out, otherwise I'm left scratching my head wondering how come they didn't try harder to locate any suspicious remains buried there. Quite possibly, repurposing an old gravesite / putting fresh remains in an old rotted casket underneath a gravestone marked with someone else's name could have been a good way to throw off the authorities.
3) Other credible suspects still at large. It's so apparent to me that the Welch family was full of bad actors and deeply dysfunctional. You have alcoholics and drug addicts, parents abusing their children, parents allowing their children to participate in inappropriate relationships with predatory adults (speaking specifically of Lloyd's cousin Teddy here, who was basically trafficked), incest, and taped sex acts / homemade *advertiser censored* produced by at least one male member of the family (Uncle Dick). I know Teddy has claimed that Lloyd was the "black sheep" of the family, but as I'm learning more about the dynamics of this bunch, I'm thinking to myself - what does it say about Lloyd Lee Welch that he's the bad apple in a family where these aforementioned behaviors are normalized? Sure, he's a who raped young girls in different states and was doing time as a result... but I have to point out that at least a couple of his female cousins disclosed to the cops that a few older males in the Welch family sexually abused them (Uncle Dick's name is brought up as being one of them). The female detective mentions Dick shooting *advertiser censored*, then vaguely says, "Child *advertiser censored* was a lot more common at that time" or something to that effect. Is she actually indirectly suggesting that Richard / "Dick" Welch might have filmed sex acts with minor children in the family?? Were they able to search the properties or any storage lockers belonging to him, or anyone else who may have participated in these films or had them in their possession at any time? Were the films perhaps destroyed in the years since as part of a massive cover-up by the family? I'm just thinking that if there's any rumors floating around that Dick had child *advertiser censored* included in his "collection," that's a MAJOR red flag - even if he was never charged or convicted of being a pedophile, as Lloyd was.
And even though Lee, Lloyd's father, is now deceased, it says in the doc that he molested his son. Although it certainly doesn't come close to excusing Lloyd's conduct, it shows a generational trend of sexually perverse tendencies and an illicit attraction to underage children. The fact is, all this happened under Lee Welch's roof, so despite him being dead and not able to be prosecuted, let's just assume he was somehow involved. Then you have at least a couple others in the family with these predilections... Dick worked right next to the mall, and even though his daughter says Lloyd and Dick were estranged and that Lloyd wasn't welcome in their home, wasn't Dick welcome in his brother Lee's home at the time? Didn't the brothers get along? In fact, she says (Dick's daughter) that she "and the cousins" often spent time there in Lee's Hyattsville basement, drinking beer and smoking weed. So we know that she and quite possibly her parents visited the home in Hyattsville where Lloyd lived.
I know we have due process in this country and people have their constitutional rights / can't be searched or detained indefinitely on just a "hunch," but so many relatives deliberately sabotaged this investigation from nearly Day #1, and some were even found guilty of perjury and of hindering an investigation, like Dick's wife. Apparently, these people all got off scot-free. How does that work? Shouldn't the police still be actively pursuing justice and continuing to build a case against the remaining suspects? Someday, I hope the sisters will be properly laid to rest, but because of the continued machinations of this awful family and their refusal to cooperate with law enforcement (plus the fact that a couple key people like Henry Parker have since died), the Lyons are denied this. It isn't right. I'm so angry, and the documentary only made me angrier and more disgusted. I didn't get a wink of sleep last night, and consequently napped during the day... ugh.
1) DNA. Like, okay, they were unable to obtain mtDNA from the bone fragments excavated at the bonfire's location, so they still don't have anything they can definitively prove as being a "body." However, when they discovered the large volume of dried blood in the basement... were they not able to extract one tiny microscopic DNA sample to test and see if it could be positively matched to either or both Sheila and Kate? I know the killer(s) thoroughly cleaned up the blood, but a lot of it obviously got absorbed by the concrete floor and walls, enough to show up clear as day when the police sprayed it with Luminol. Maybe I'm ignorant of the science behind it, but can't DNA get extracted from dried blood, or would it simply be too degraded? Unless I missed something, I didn't catch if they had established that the blood found at the crime scene belonged to either or both the Lyon sisters. They just said that they wondered if (as put forth by Lloyd) Kate had really tried to get away, and was killed there in the basement in retaliation. The detective didn't actually state as fact that it was Kate's blood they had found, which would've meant Lloyd was actually telling the truth, and she'd truly been killed in that basement.
2) The cemetery on Taylor's Mountain. Very little was said about what they uncovered there. The film jumped from the scene showing police and volunteers excavating there, to the wiretap recording of one of the cousins telling her mom that "they wouldn't find them [the girls] there." So, did they just completely give up digging in that area upon hearing that, confident that they were wasting their time? I never heard anything more about the efforts to locate remains in the cemetery after that point. Near the end of the film, one of the detectives muses about Sheila maybe having been given a "proper burial," a.k.a. NOT killed and dismembered in the basement (as Kate supposedly was) and then thrown into the bonfire, but he just sort of trails off, the credits roll, and we never hear anything further about what was uncovered at the cemetery. Extremely aggravating. You'd think they'd unearth some caskets corresponding to the gravestones - as I can clearly see them in the footage. Yet, I have to ask, were any human remains they found buried there actually lab tested and ruled out as being those of a young girl approx. 10-12? They could have fleshed that part out, otherwise I'm left scratching my head wondering how come they didn't try harder to locate any suspicious remains buried there. Quite possibly, repurposing an old gravesite / putting fresh remains in an old rotted casket underneath a gravestone marked with someone else's name could have been a good way to throw off the authorities.
3) Other credible suspects still at large. It's so apparent to me that the Welch family was full of bad actors and deeply dysfunctional. You have alcoholics and drug addicts, parents abusing their children, parents allowing their children to participate in inappropriate relationships with predatory adults (speaking specifically of Lloyd's cousin Teddy here, who was basically trafficked), incest, and taped sex acts / homemade *advertiser censored* produced by at least one male member of the family (Uncle Dick). I know Teddy has claimed that Lloyd was the "black sheep" of the family, but as I'm learning more about the dynamics of this bunch, I'm thinking to myself - what does it say about Lloyd Lee Welch that he's the bad apple in a family where these aforementioned behaviors are normalized? Sure, he's a who raped young girls in different states and was doing time as a result... but I have to point out that at least a couple of his female cousins disclosed to the cops that a few older males in the Welch family sexually abused them (Uncle Dick's name is brought up as being one of them). The female detective mentions Dick shooting *advertiser censored*, then vaguely says, "Child *advertiser censored* was a lot more common at that time" or something to that effect. Is she actually indirectly suggesting that Richard / "Dick" Welch might have filmed sex acts with minor children in the family?? Were they able to search the properties or any storage lockers belonging to him, or anyone else who may have participated in these films or had them in their possession at any time? Were the films perhaps destroyed in the years since as part of a massive cover-up by the family? I'm just thinking that if there's any rumors floating around that Dick had child *advertiser censored* included in his "collection," that's a MAJOR red flag - even if he was never charged or convicted of being a pedophile, as Lloyd was.
And even though Lee, Lloyd's father, is now deceased, it says in the doc that he molested his son. Although it certainly doesn't come close to excusing Lloyd's conduct, it shows a generational trend of sexually perverse tendencies and an illicit attraction to underage children. The fact is, all this happened under Lee Welch's roof, so despite him being dead and not able to be prosecuted, let's just assume he was somehow involved. Then you have at least a couple others in the family with these predilections... Dick worked right next to the mall, and even though his daughter says Lloyd and Dick were estranged and that Lloyd wasn't welcome in their home, wasn't Dick welcome in his brother Lee's home at the time? Didn't the brothers get along? In fact, she says (Dick's daughter) that she "and the cousins" often spent time there in Lee's Hyattsville basement, drinking beer and smoking weed. So we know that she and quite possibly her parents visited the home in Hyattsville where Lloyd lived.
I know we have due process in this country and people have their constitutional rights / can't be searched or detained indefinitely on just a "hunch," but so many relatives deliberately sabotaged this investigation from nearly Day #1, and some were even found guilty of perjury and of hindering an investigation, like Dick's wife. Apparently, these people all got off scot-free. How does that work? Shouldn't the police still be actively pursuing justice and continuing to build a case against the remaining suspects? Someday, I hope the sisters will be properly laid to rest, but because of the continued machinations of this awful family and their refusal to cooperate with law enforcement (plus the fact that a couple key people like Henry Parker have since died), the Lyons are denied this. It isn't right. I'm so angry, and the documentary only made me angrier and more disgusted. I didn't get a wink of sleep last night, and consequently napped during the day... ugh.
I agree with you on the confusion over the DNA on the blood in the basement. The doc didn't say one way or another if they were able to get DNA from the blood in the basement. That was unfortunate. The detective IDed the house, found the basement that matched LLW2's descriptions from his interviews, and the blood was found, but yeah, no confirmation it actually belonged to one of the Lyon sisters. That sucked.
From the interviews and other details, my impression is that Katherine tried to escape, got killed at the house, and then sent away to the mountain to be burned. Then Sheila ended up on the mountain, just not in the cemetery. She could be in a grave up there out in the woods and they'd never find her.
It's been discussed here in these threads before. They had LLW2 in jail. The other main players were either dead or on their way. Law enforcement has no reason to stir the pot and spend more dollars on what is more or less solved. For forty years, the girls had simply disappeared into thin air and then they suddenly find a perp and a story that more or less explains things. "Close the book on the Lyon sisters! Good work, detectives!"
The Welch family is messed up, for sure. The real question is how LLW2 suddenly appeared on law enforcement's radar. "I had read everything in the case file and this suddenly appeared on my desk one day." That is one hell of a stroke of good fortune, or was it? We've discussed this before too.
SurrealisticSlumbers
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Yeah, but they're still apprehending high-ranking Nazi officials who fled Germany and are now very elderly. Just because someone's a senior citizen doesn't mean they're magically exempt from being held accountable for their actions.
The detectives likely know stuff they aren't saying. But the official Wikipedia page on this case still names Richard Welch as a person of interest. All those who covered for him and any others involved are still walking the streets. Let that sink in. I wouldn't want to reside, much less raise kids within a 50-mile radius of any of these people. Those who committed perjury and intentionally misled police aren't much better than the actual criminals. I'd be really careful if I were any of them, now that the documentary's exposed them all by name. I'm not advocating vigilante justice, but let's be frank - their days are numbered. There's a lot of public outrage over unprosecuted pedophiles and their enablers, especially in these current times we're living in (think Jeffrey Epstein). I wouldn't be surprised if I saw something on the news about an unexplained "accident" happening to any of these people... you can pay to look up an address for someone whose address isn't publicly available, i.e. Whitepages Premium.
Also from the documentary it seems like police weren't doing a great job of keeping a low profile when wiretapping members of the Welch family and tracking their movements. Given that the one cousin of Lloyd said she saw police installing a camera out on the telephone pole clear as day and saw the patrol cars up and down the street. Then that caused them all to clam up once they knew they were being spied upon. Way to NOT keep the investigation a secret... They also needed to spend more time up there on the mountain and continue searching for the girls. Sorry. It just looks to me like pure laziness. The Lyons deserve better.
SurrealisticSlumbers said
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Two out of Welch's 15 victims called by the Commonwealth to testify - knew Lloyd L.Welch Jr.
previously to the Lyon Sisters crime. From reading the FOIA's of one of these two victims, she spoke of the pedophiles kidnapping young girls to make child *advertiser censored* for lucrative gain in 1974. Were these horrendous crimes limited to just the Welch family? I don't think so.
previously to the Lyon Sisters crime. From reading the FOIA's of one of these two victims, she spoke of the pedophiles kidnapping young girls to make child *advertiser censored* for lucrative gain in 1974. Were these horrendous crimes limited to just the Welch family? I don't think so.
monkeyboy13
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SurrealisticSlumbers
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Oh, did someone else already point this out earlier in the thread? I just skimmed the last three or so pages, so I apologize if I was redundant or brought up something that someone else said originally. Wasn't trying to steal anyone's thunder, just learned this particular bit of information (re: the homemade *advertiser censored*) from the documentary and my mouth fell open, and I thought I'd post that info here.
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Absolutely not, I was impressed by your post, the "repetitious message" was MINE, which I removed. In regards to your post, it's possible old degraded DNA cannot be "testable" rendering it useless to be submitted to a database, geneological or otherwise. The point I was trying to make is; other victims of LLW Jr. have discussed child *advertiser censored* filming by this "group", BEFORE the Lyons Sisters abduction in 1975. So how long had it been going on and by who?
In the 70's, For example the Sidney Lust Drive-In could only show "soft core" *advertiser censored* to the public; so illicit newsstands, sharing, networking , selling *advertiser censored* was the 'means to the end' not only for lucrative gain but for deviant sexual gratification.
Runaways were especially vulnerable to be picked up, used and abused while filmed, only to become 'missing'. These young people were a 'valuable commodity' for this pedophile group, Lloyd L. Welch Jr commented how this was like committing the perfect crime. He had help.
I really appreciate your posts.
In the 70's, For example the Sidney Lust Drive-In could only show "soft core" *advertiser censored* to the public; so illicit newsstands, sharing, networking , selling *advertiser censored* was the 'means to the end' not only for lucrative gain but for deviant sexual gratification.
Runaways were especially vulnerable to be picked up, used and abused while filmed, only to become 'missing'. These young people were a 'valuable commodity' for this pedophile group, Lloyd L. Welch Jr commented how this was like committing the perfect crime. He had help.
I really appreciate your posts.
Barnabas
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Thank you so much!
I haven't been to this forum in years, I used to post under the name WaynezWorld, but lost that password somehow. There has always been some really good discussion here and after reading "Last Stone" and seeing the ID documentary I thought it would be a good time to revisit.
Like SurrealisticSlumbers noted, I find a lot of new questions. The lack of DNA evidence, the stonewall that investigators came to with the family- I believe that at least two of the guilty beat justice by dying first.
Another point that bothers me is the 1975 witness who reported seeing 2 girls in a Ford station wagon ( which Richard Welch had) on a route that led thru Manassas, VA and logically to Bedford, VA. However, in LLW's confession (which has to be taken with a grain of salt), the vehicle involved is a 60's model Chrysler and the girls were already deceased at this time.
I am puzzled also by the links with Richard Welch to child *advertiser censored*. The documentary was able to produce what looks like older 8mm film made by RW behaving perhaps lecherously and looking like a general creep. We are told in the film that RW made some *advertiser censored* films that were shared or sold to relatives in Bedford. I'm having difficulty understanding if this was a personal fetish to RW or if it extended to some larger underground network. Seems doubtful that there would be a very lucrative market for this kind of sordid thing amongst the rube Welch clan. I'm also not discounting that investigators learned more that they chose not to share in order to protect the privacy of the Lyon family.
I tried to find some sympathy in my heart for some of the peripheral members of this family. Teddy came across as somewhat sympathetic, but I fear he is perhaps damaged for life and could benefit from some serious counseling. Patricia Welch was in an abusive relationship with a true monster, but still chose blood loyalty. Maybe she did not participate in the plot, but sounds as if she had knowledge after the fact and may have heard a story of where those little girls bodies are.
Connie Akers bugs the hell out of me. Though it seems she suffered from the same patterns of abuse, it absolutely blows my mind she lived with this vague recollection of a bloody green duffle bag being burned, a 35+ year old memory that is corroborated by neighbors who recall the smell? I can't in my mind get around how Connie Akers took this strange event so nonchalantly and lived with it for years.
Also note, at the end of the video, LLW, when asked in the end who knew about the story, states Lee, Dickie, Henry...and then that Connie knew, but "I didn't know that Connie knew". But... she saw the bloody duffle bag and heard the spoiled beef story? Incredible...
The last thing that bugs me is near the very end, Detective Janney goes on to speculate that Sheila was "given somewhat of a proper burial" but does not clue any information as to what differently may have happened with Kate and why he may think her fate was different.
In the conclusion of the book (which is a sad, but compelling read), it is revealed that many of the detectives who worked on the case have different conclusions as to the extent of family culpability. I don't blame bad detective work, in fact, I think their work was phenomenal given they kept the despicable LLW talking ( he NEVER sought an attorney) and patiently listened many series of lies without losing LLWs trust.
Like SurrealisticSlumbers noted, I find a lot of new questions. The lack of DNA evidence, the stonewall that investigators came to with the family- I believe that at least two of the guilty beat justice by dying first.
Another point that bothers me is the 1975 witness who reported seeing 2 girls in a Ford station wagon ( which Richard Welch had) on a route that led thru Manassas, VA and logically to Bedford, VA. However, in LLW's confession (which has to be taken with a grain of salt), the vehicle involved is a 60's model Chrysler and the girls were already deceased at this time.
I am puzzled also by the links with Richard Welch to child *advertiser censored*. The documentary was able to produce what looks like older 8mm film made by RW behaving perhaps lecherously and looking like a general creep. We are told in the film that RW made some *advertiser censored* films that were shared or sold to relatives in Bedford. I'm having difficulty understanding if this was a personal fetish to RW or if it extended to some larger underground network. Seems doubtful that there would be a very lucrative market for this kind of sordid thing amongst the rube Welch clan. I'm also not discounting that investigators learned more that they chose not to share in order to protect the privacy of the Lyon family.
I tried to find some sympathy in my heart for some of the peripheral members of this family. Teddy came across as somewhat sympathetic, but I fear he is perhaps damaged for life and could benefit from some serious counseling. Patricia Welch was in an abusive relationship with a true monster, but still chose blood loyalty. Maybe she did not participate in the plot, but sounds as if she had knowledge after the fact and may have heard a story of where those little girls bodies are.
Connie Akers bugs the hell out of me. Though it seems she suffered from the same patterns of abuse, it absolutely blows my mind she lived with this vague recollection of a bloody green duffle bag being burned, a 35+ year old memory that is corroborated by neighbors who recall the smell? I can't in my mind get around how Connie Akers took this strange event so nonchalantly and lived with it for years.
Also note, at the end of the video, LLW, when asked in the end who knew about the story, states Lee, Dickie, Henry...and then that Connie knew, but "I didn't know that Connie knew". But... she saw the bloody duffle bag and heard the spoiled beef story? Incredible...
The last thing that bugs me is near the very end, Detective Janney goes on to speculate that Sheila was "given somewhat of a proper burial" but does not clue any information as to what differently may have happened with Kate and why he may think her fate was different.
In the conclusion of the book (which is a sad, but compelling read), it is revealed that many of the detectives who worked on the case have different conclusions as to the extent of family culpability. I don't blame bad detective work, in fact, I think their work was phenomenal given they kept the despicable LLW talking ( he NEVER sought an attorney) and patiently listened many series of lies without losing LLWs trust.
to SurrealSlumber-- I agree with a lot of your takeaways here. It's a shame they didn't put the screws on LLW Jr earlier. My guess is when he went to police in 1975, his story was purposely flakey or perhaps he had altered his appearance (haircut etc) and was dismissed. I am leaning toward the version with LLW Jr and Sr and RAW being the principal culprits, and Henry Parker being an accessory after the fact.
The Manassas sighting is what bugs me the most. Even if it had nothing to do with the Lyon sisters, I'd still like to know what happened that day. There were at least three witnesses who saw something (the original IBM employee, Marshall Dietz, and then MD indicated there was at least one other person who saw something).
I went back and checked. The Ford station wagon seen by MD and the one owned by Richard Welch were not the same model, but they were the same color: MD said in his posts here at WS that the station wagon he saw was tan, but that it was originally painted blue like Richard Welch's vehicle.
I went back and checked. The Ford station wagon seen by MD and the one owned by Richard Welch were not the same model, but they were the same color: MD said in his posts here at WS that the station wagon he saw was tan, but that it was originally painted blue like Richard Welch's vehicle.
What really happened to Sheila Lyon?
What first caught my attention was the appearance of a young girl’s legs lying across the rear seat. She was wearing a blue-grey plaid skirt like those from a parochial school. sighting April 7, 1975 and "message in a bottle"
The Fredericksburg police called in the FBI; the FBI examined the note and verified that the handwriting was most probably Sheila’s and that the bottle had been in the river for about a year. note found April 10 1976
It’s now over 35 years ago, our serial killers and sex offender’s stories get made into TV movies sooner than that.
Who is it and what is it that requires such state secrecy?
All I ask is for help to find the girls and bring them home to their mother
Source: Excerpts from “the 35th Anniversary of my sighting” -mDietz47
Above is a dichotomy to . . .
According to the affidavit filed in Salem Circuit Court ********** a relative told the grand jury Aker corresponded with Welch. Other witnesses testified Aker communicated frequently with other members and persons of interest in the case.
Source: Police Take Letters from Welch Cousin’s Home posted Jul 21, 2015 by Angela Hatcher
Is Lloyd Welch Jrs version of what went on up in the mountain with his relatives in 1975 collaborated with reliable witnesses? or collusion? Is MDietz mistaken on what he saw in April of 1975? What happened to Sheila Lyon?
Then I'll get on my knees and pray …We Don't Get Fooled Again Source: 1971-“The Who”
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If that doesn't work for you, you can buy it on Amazon Prime for $1.99, like I did.
tilomagnet
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This is also on youtube, well I guess it's the same as I cant access the original on the TV station page.