Sleuthing Cindy's Depo & Baez Objections to Sealed Items

[ExpectingUnicorns]

Thanks I see where the other report explains this. The question now is, where is the missing incisor? Lost at the remains site or was it found somewhere else as has been suggested (car, backyard, etc.)?

Because "tooth" is on that Exhibit list, did peeps jump to the conclusion that a tooth was found? Or is it a fact?

Remember there were two lists? The left hand list were items that Casey had apparently taken to JB for purposes of testing for dna. It was in her handwriting. The right hand list looked like "potential items" that could produce dna. Remember even chewing gum and band aid were on this list. The handwriting was never identified. It is this second, right hand list that the word "tooth" appeared on. Please notice that there are several items on this list that were not on the list of things turned over to JB.

It is reminding me of the mixup between the list of what to search for getting mixed up with the items that were actually taken from the house.

At this point I don't think we have any reason to think that JB was ever given a tooth. Granted, there is an incisor that was never found with the rest of the remains but I'm actually surprised that there's only one that is missing!! moo.

 

[Curious Me]

Maybe Caylee is missing a tooth from being left out there to decompose, but because it is a front incisor tooth and the tape was probably still holding things in place somewhat, it seems less likely this front tooth was lost out there in the woods but not found with the others.

I believe the subject of the tooth was due to the list. I don't know if CA or GA really found one of her teeth under the car seat, but that was how this started us sleuthing on the tooth. So, really, we don't know if the tooth written on the list was a tooth they found and handed in.

JMO, I would think the tape would have evidence of blood and indicate if the tooth was lost just before the tape was put on. I think we need to know more about the tooth on the list if it even was a tooth and not a abbreviation.

 

[seagull65]

starting about page 7 of this document there is description of where teeth were found at the remains site

http://www.wftv.com/_blank/18740668/detail.html

 

[Curious Me]

It figures! There's mystery and maybe lies concerning the car seats now, as well. This case is a sleuthers paradise.

 

[Boots-OK]

I am wondering where the 4 teeth were found at the scene..in the bag still? 13 still in place in the mandible and 4 found at the scene, and 1 front tooth missing. If the 4 loose teeth were still in the bag...it would make me even more suspicious about the 1 front missing tooth..like it was gone before she was dumped. I don't think they would hand over Caylee's tooth to anyone if they found it.. so I don't think it is the "tooth" from the list... BUT I still wonder about the missing tooth.

Hi, lsf - the 4 teeth were found with the skull. Report does not say if they were still in the bag; however, they were located in Area A at the site.

Begins on pdf pg # 26, Anthropologist's report:

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/06/19/caylee.anthony.autopsy.pdf

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

Color photos.. See Exhibit #9 of the car seat in the car in LE's posession.
http://www.filedropper.com/09adepoexhibits

Here is the pic of Caylee in the carseat. Caseys car. (Window line is the same and you can see the back window..so it's not Cindy's SUV)

http://media.photobucket.com/image/...terPeacer/MP OnTheWeb/blog/CayleeAnthony2.jpg

They own two Eddie Bauer carseats. Maybe the same model purchased at the same time. According to Cindy.. Caseys is "Black and White" and hers it "Brown and Tan"

Could they be different in color? I enlarged both and looked really close..
Neither are Black and White.. I see Black and Grey, and the LE one could be Black and Grey, or tones of browns? (think beige, taupe..) What do you think?

I'm not able to open the first link with this computer so I can't see that carseat. Is that the picture that has Casey and Annie with the shamrock ball cap on? I remember you can see Caylee in the backseat in that picture and I have spent lots of time looking and can't find it. Is that it?

 

[lizzysf]

All but one were recovered (and therefore accounted for) so only one tooth was lost. The location of the teeth recovered so close to the skull led to the conclusion that the skull location was the original dump site and that bones found elsewhere had been dispersed by animals.

So the 4 loose teeth were found right near the skull..but not the missing front tooth. Interesting.

 

[seagull65]

and here's Dr. G's description of the tooth that was inside the skull and how many were still attached etc, bottom of page 8 at this link and top of page 9

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/medical_examiners_report.pdf

just to have the two links handy

here's the first link again with description of the teeth found in the soil around the skeletal remains, page 7 onward

http://www.wftv.com/_blank/18740668/detail.html

and in Investigator Jenny Welch's report further on

(page 84 at the link) Two teeth found, Tag H 60494, Flag #4
(page 88 at the link) Two teeth found, Tag H 60505, Flag #29

 

[magic-cat]

Okay, after much study of Cindy's depo (more than I ever hoped to do of any depo lol), I've concluded there are two separate and distinct issues/objections here. This is in regards to issue/objection #2. (I've written up issue/objection #1 too, but it's really too long to post and I have to figure out how to condense it.)

Relevant pages of Cindy's depo: http://www.docstoc.com/docs/13348352/Cindy_BaezObjections_SealedStuff

Note: n/n = page/line

- 503/1 SA asks if Cindy saw Casey take anything from the garage out of the house (SA does not specify to Baez)

- Important! 503/7 SA asks if Cindy observed Casey "gathering up photographs or videos, anything like that, images of Caylee?". Cindy

says yes.

- 503/11 Baez interrupts Cindy's 'yes', objects, and asks to go off record. SAs Burdick and Ashton say it should be on record.

Finally SAs and Baez agree to go off record only for Baez to talk to his "co-counsel" (Lyon, I assume?)

- 506/1 Back on record and Baez: "It's our position that this is an area that's going to be in violation of a court order.

We're asking if you guys would like to discuss it off the record. If you don't, and you want to continue and proceed, we're

going to ask that we suspend the deposition until we can get guidance from the Court."

- Discussion continues.

- 507/6 SA and Baez agree Baez' concern is not that SA will discover something they don't know, but that the public will discover something they don't know. hmmmmmm.

- 507/16 SA states therefore there's no reason to suspend the depo, and 507/23 Lyon disagrees.

- Important! 508/1 Lyon: "this information will make its way into the public wheel some kind of way once the question is answered."

Okay, let's go back and look at the question again: 503/7 SA asks if Cindy observed Casey "gathering up photographs or videos, anything like that, images of Caylee?". Cindy says yes. ("Yeah. She --")

Hmmmm... There's the question. And there's the answer.

- Finally, after more discussion, Baez states he will take it to the Court for a ruling. There is agreement that Cindy will come back if the Court says the question is appropriate.

- 511/4 SA moves on with the depo to duct tape question, and the issue is not brought up again.


Conclusion:
- Baez' objection was based on a court order to seal.
- The only court order to seal that is pertinent to the question asked and objected is regarding how the defense is getting paid.
- The question was asked, and answered. The information is now "in the public wheel".
- The defense team is getting paid by Casey selling photos, videos, and/or images of her murdered daughter, Caylee.

MOO

You are one brilliant bean!

I think IIRC they had gotten him talking about the smell and what it meant to him and then he either got a call from Lee or realized Lee was there to pick him up or something, and I think that was when it happened. But they'd shown him some pictures, too. IIRC we all wondered if it was because of talking about the smell, feeling like he was betraying the family by admitting what the smell meant to him, or because of the pictures. Would the FBI or OCSD really show X-rated pictures of Casey to her father I wonder, I mean, what does that have to do with Caylee, why do that to GA? And do we know for sure if there were any real X-rated photos or were they just composite/fake photos like the one "bad picture" ?

Yeah, we went back and watched the FBI interview and LE interviews and it was actually George who told the FBI they had all these pictures of Casey and he just SAID at that point that made him sick...then later, after discussing the decomp and his nervousness about not wanting Lee to know he was there was when he finally had to go throw up...

 

[lizzysf]

I'm not able to open the first link with this computer so I can't see that carseat. Is that the picture that has Casey and Annie with the shamrock ball cap on? I remember you can see Caylee in the backseat in that picture and I have spent lots of time looking and can't find it. Is that it?

No. It is the picture LE took of the inside of the car with the carseat. You have to download the file and save it. open the file and you will find george docs and cindy docs file. drag the Cindy file to your desktop and then the pics will view fine. Look at exhibit #9.

 

[lizzysf]

and here's Dr. G's description of the tooth that was inside the skull and how many were still attached etc, bottom of page 8 at this link and top of page 9

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/medical_examiners_report.pdf

just to have the two links handy

here's the first link again with description of the teeth found in the soil around the skeletal remains, page 7 onward

http://www.wftv.com/_blank/18740668/detail.html

The autopsy reports are inconsistent on the number of teeth. This one adds up to 19 teeth recovered and 1 missing... which means 20 teeth, not 18. The other report says she only had 18 teeth.

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/medical_examiners_report.pdf

It says on 12/12- OSCO received 2 teeth.
on 12/13- 3 more teeth were found

When Dr. Garavalgia (sp?) received the skull, she found 1 incisor inside the skull stuck to dirt.

She also notes that 13 teeth are still in place in the mandible

She notes that one incisor is still missing.

Still...all the teeth were found right near the skull. So why couldn't they find the one missing tooth?

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

I just thought of something. If Casey were involved in pimping the Big Trouble shirt photo to the Globe it would sure give a richer meaning to her statement, "They haven't even found her clothes yet." Wouldn't it?

 

[lizzysf]

I just thought of something. If Casey were involved in pimping the Big Trouble shirt photo to the Globe it would sure give a richer meaning to her statement, "They haven't even found her clothes yet." Wouldn't it?

Um, yea.. In a Hannibal Lector sort of way...

 

[OneLostGrl]

You are one brilliant bean!

Yeah, we went back and watched the FBI interview and LE interviews and it was actually George who told the FBI they had all these pictures of Casey and he just SAID at that point that made him sick...then later, after discussing the decomp and his nervousness about not wanting Lee to know he was there was when he finally had to go throw up...

I think his fear of Lee finding out he was there is why he got sick. He snuck there and was very adament that Lee not know he was there by himself. It has always seemed to me that George got sick when it came to be show time and Lee was pulling up to the police station.

 

[BeanE]

yes, I do too, Lizzy. IIRC, I think one tooth was found inside the skull, that's where it landed after decomp. The others were around the remains, I don't recall if they were in the bag, I'm thinking maybe not, like maybe they were found when the soil was being scraped?
I wonder, is there a thread just on the teeth, if not, maybe we should start one.

BBM

I didn't find a teeth thread. I agree that we need one, with the pertinent posts from this thread (and probably others) moved to it, so we have everything in one place.

The reason I think we need a thread specific to teeth is because of the missing tooth, and the implications that this tooth of Caylee's may have been 1) lost through violence, and/or 2) found/saved by someone.

If we put all the tooth sleuthing together in one thread and study it, we may be able to see something we've missed.

It would also be good to have the info in case Caylee's teeth come up at trial.

JMO

 

[JBean]

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90599"]Caylee's Teeth - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

You guys it takes forever to move lots of posts to another thread. that is why you need to be careful about burying information in what turns into a general dicussion thread.

general discussion threads=lost info.
If there is anything else on this thread that is getting into more indepth analysis, UI highly recommend moving it to a thread of its own or bumping old threads. I am going to shut this one down at some point because we are going to have parallele discussions going on.
thanks.
Its all about info retrieval at trial time.

 

[Novice Seeker]

Okay, after much study of Cindy's depo (more than I ever hoped to do of any depo lol), I've concluded there are two separate and distinct issues/objections here. This is in regards to issue/objection #2. (I've written up issue/objection #1 too, but it's really too long to post and I have to figure out how to condense it.)

Relevant pages of Cindy's depo: http://www.docstoc.com/docs/13348352/Cindy_BaezObjections_SealedStuff

Note: n/n = page/line

- 503/1 SA asks if Cindy saw Casey take anything from the garage out of the house (SA does not specify to Baez)

- Important! 503/7 SA asks if Cindy observed Casey "gathering up photographs or videos, anything like that, images of Caylee?". Cindy

says yes.

- 503/11 Baez interrupts Cindy's 'yes', objects, and asks to go off record. SAs Burdick and Ashton say it should be on record.

Finally SAs and Baez agree to go off record only for Baez to talk to his "co-counsel" (Lyon, I assume?)

- 506/1 Back on record and Baez: "It's our position that this is an area that's going to be in violation of a court order.

We're asking if you guys would like to discuss it off the record. If you don't, and you want to continue and proceed, we're

going to ask that we suspend the deposition until we can get guidance from the Court."

- Discussion continues.

- 507/6 SA and Baez agree Baez' concern is not that SA will discover something they don't know, but that the public will discover something they don't know. hmmmmmm.

- 507/16 SA states therefore there's no reason to suspend the depo, and 507/23 Lyon disagrees.

- Important! 508/1 Lyon: "this information will make its way into the public wheel some kind of way once the question is answered."

Okay, let's go back and look at the question again: 503/7 SA asks if Cindy observed Casey "gathering up photographs or videos, anything like that, images of Caylee?". Cindy says yes. ("Yeah. She --")

Hmmmm... There's the question. And there's the answer.

- Finally, after more discussion, Baez states he will take it to the Court for a ruling. There is agreement that Cindy will come back if the Court says the question is appropriate.

- 511/4 SA moves on with the depo to duct tape question, and the issue is not brought up again.


Conclusion:
- Baez' objection was based on a court order to seal.
- The only court order to seal that is pertinent to the question asked and objected is regarding how the defense is getting paid.
- The question was asked, and answered. The information is now "in the public wheel".
- The defense team is getting paid by Casey selling photos, videos, and/or images of her murdered daughter, Caylee.

MOO

That's my conclusion. So, why did Judge Strickland in a previous in conference hearing determine that no conflict of interest existed b/w JB and KC? That entire issue was to resolve any door KC could use later to appeal. JB swore to the judge as an officer of the court that he was not selling photos and such when we already new about the Ritz deal which took place the very weekend Caylee's remains were found. And why is JB not behind bars?

Novice Seeker

 

[lizzysf]

Caylee's Teeth - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

You guys it takes forever to move lots of posts to another thread. that is why you need to be careful about burying information in what turns into a general dicussion thread.

general discussion threads=lost info.
If there is anything else on this thread that is getting into more indepth analysis, UI highly recommend moving it to a thread of its own or bumping old threads. I am going to shut this one down at some point because we are going to have parallele discussions going on.
thanks.
Its all about info retrieval at trial time.

I agree...what started out to be discussion about "tooth" on the list has led into a whole new discussion regarding the missing tooth, which doesn't fall under the title of this thread anymore..

 

[Oakley]

I think his fear of Lee finding out he was there is why he got sick. He snuck there and was very adament that Lee not know he was there by himself. It has always seemed to me that George got sick when it came to be show time and Lee was pulling up to the police station.

I was under the impression that it was George's memory of the smell of decomp that made him sick.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Color photos.. See Exhibit #9 of the car seat in the car in LE's posession.
http://www.filedropper.com/09adepoexhibits

Here is the pic of Caylee in the carseat. Caseys car. (Window line is the same and you can see the back window..so it's not Cindy's SUV)

http://media.photobucket.com/image/...terPeacer/MP OnTheWeb/blog/CayleeAnthony2.jpg

They own two Eddie Bauer carseats. Maybe the same model purchased at the same time. According to Cindy.. Caseys is "Black and White" and hers it "Brown and Tan"

Could they be different in color? I enlarged both and looked really close..
Neither are Black and White.. I see Black and Grey, and the LE one could be Black and Grey, or tones of browns? (think beige, taupe..) What do you think? I am wondering if LE has Cindy's (brown) and not Caseys.. Did Cindy switch carseats before they picked it up?

Lizzy, do you want to begin a thread for "carseats"? If carseats have been swapped then it is important to the case. Just like the tooth/teeth, I think the subject deserves a thread of its own.

ATTN: Adding - Please see Post 705 ahead in this thread. A carseat thread exists already. I hope we can duplicate your post there to generate the swap discussion.