Sniff tests, hair decomp, really so conclusive? Fence sitters thread

[MommaShark]

OCSO made the statement.

Where's the statement. Did you hear it?

 

[EntreNous]

Hi guys. I'm new to this forum but this is one question I can answer, prolly the only one :crazy:. I posted this on another thread but now I see I should have posted it here. Sorry for that.

Each strand of human hair is made of three layers, the medulla,(the innermost "core"), the cortex, (the middle layer) and the cuticle (the outer layer). This outer layer looks like fish scales or feathers on a bird.

The hair of a living child would have a cuticle layer that lays down very, very smoothly. It's not been bleached or dyed and that very smooth cuticle is part of what gives a child's hair that very silky, shiny appearance.
The middle or cortex layer is a taupe/tan color. Even if the hair is pulled or cut off a living person and is no longer attached, it basically maintains its original form unless it is exposed to chemicals.

The hair that comes off a corpse has a roughed up cuticle. Not because it is detached but because his has been exposed to the decomposition chemicals that a dead body creates. This takes place in a corpse when the body starts to decompose, it breaks the chemical bonds in the hair. The cuticle layer will actually react to the decomposition fluid of the body and curl or "ruffle" up. Another thing that happens is that black rings will start to form in the cortex layer of the hair shaft which also can be easily detected under a microscope.

I know this because I'm a hairstylist and we actually had to study this when I was in school. We worked on this project for a few weeks. This was something that really stuck with me.

I can't believe I actually got to finally use that to help someone understand forensic evidence.

There is a lot more to it than that with hydrogen bonds and sulfur bonds but that's how it happens in basic terms. Hair doesn't just decompose like one would think in those terms. In order for it to show proof that it came from a cadaver it has to have been exposed to the body's decomposition chemicals, in other words it has to have been attached to the body's hair follicle at the time of death.

Think of it like dyed daisies. A shasta daisy doesn't grow blue but if you stick it in a glass of blue dyed water the daisy will absorb the blue dye and the petals, once white, will turn blue. Same basic principle.

Hope that helps.

 

[krimekat]

I think she is saying exactly what I say. Where is the briefing?? Why have we not been told. So why believe it until we hear it from the pd themself. I'm with you Seagul!

LE does not have to tell us anything . . .

 

[librarian_mama]

Where's the statement. Did you hear it?

Today Sgt. John Allen with the Orange County Sheriff’s Department confirmed there was a dead body in the trunk of Casey Anthony’s car, and that body was Caylee.

 

[krimekat]

Where's the statement. Did you hear it?

Please read this link . . . http://www.wftv.com/news/17340180/detail.html

Today Sgt. John Allen with the Orange County Sheriff’s Department confirmed . . . [t]here was a dead body in the trunk of Casey Anthony’s car, and that body was Caylee.

 

[MommaShark]

Hi guys. I'm new to this forum but this is one question I can answer, prolly the only one :crazy:. I posted this on another thread but now I see I should have posted it here. Sorry for that.

Each strand of human hair is made of three layers, the medulla,(the innermost "core"), the cortex, (the middle layer) and the cuticle (the outer layer). This outer layer looks like fish scales or feathers on a bird.

The hair of a living child would have a cuticle layer that lays down very, very smoothly. It's not been bleached or dyed and that very smooth cuticle is part of what gives a child's hair that very silky, shiny appearance.
The middle or cortex layer is a taupe/tan color. Even if the hair is pulled or cut off a living person and is no longer attached, it basically maintains its original form unless it is exposed to chemicals.

The hair that comes off a corpse has a roughed up cuticle. Not because it is detached but because his has been exposed to the decomposition chemicals that a dead body creates. This takes place in a corpse when the body starts to decompose, it breaks the chemical bonds in the hair. The cuticle layer will actually react to the decomposition fluid of the body and curl or "ruffle" up. Another thing that happens is that black rings will start to form in the cortex layer of the hair shaft which also can be easily detected under a microscope.

I know this because I'm a hairstylist and we actually had to study this when I was in school. We worked on this project for a few weeks. This was something that really stuck with me.

I can't believe I actually got to finally use that to help someone understand forensic evidence.

Thanks for the info. Very informative. We need more of that from the detectives in this case. None the less call me stupid, I still prefer to hold out hope until I can no longer.

 

[seagull65]

Um...could you tell us what an "innocent lying problem" would be? A pathalogical liar is not really a DSM-IV classification, it describes a person who lies about everything, especially things they don't "need to" (like to protect themselves from consequences).

Usually "pathological lying" refers to calculated lying for a specific purpose. "Compulsive lying" often refers to lying for no purpose, in an uncontrolled way. For example, telling lies that will be found out easily. Some compulsive liars believe their own lies while they are telling them, (maybe kind of lost in the fantasy world they are creating), but afterward when they realize what they've said, they get into an ongoing situation of having to lie more and more to cover previous lies. They say compulsive liars may lie due to growing up with a constant fear of punishment, or because they grew up with a parent who had the same problem. Compulsive liars feel safer and more comfortable when they are lying than when they are telling the truth.
Pathological lying usually refers to purposeful lying, for self-serving purposes, and often with a disregard for the rights or well-being of others.

 

[jbar]

Someone posted this on the "Osco confirms Caylee DNA" thread

http://etd.lsu.edu/docs/available/etd-01242005-145140/unrestricted/Collier_thesis.pdf

 

[MommaShark]

Please read this link . . . http://www.wftv.com/news/17340180/detail.html

Today Sgt. John Allen with the Orange County Sheriff’s Department confirmed . . . [t]here was a dead body in the trunk of Casey Anthony’s car, and that body was Caylee.

I have read this. But I still did not hear it for myself. Nothing in this case has been open and shut. Not letting my gaurd down yet. Sorry guys.

 

[RhondaIL]

Hi guys. I'm new to this forum but this is one question I can answer, prolly the only one :crazy:. I posted this on another thread but now I see I should have posted it here. Sorry for that.

Each strand of human hair is made of three layers, the medulla,(the innermost "core"), the cortex, (the middle layer) and the cuticle (the outer layer). This outer layer looks like fish scales or feathers on a bird.

The hair of a living child would have a cuticle layer that lays down very, very smoothly. It's not been bleached or dyed and that very smooth cuticle is part of what gives a child's hair that very silky, shiny appearance.
The middle or cortex layer is a taupe/tan color. Even if the hair is pulled or cut off a living person and is no longer attached, it basically maintains its original form unless it is exposed to chemicals.

The hair that comes off a corpse has a roughed up cuticle. Not because it is detached but because his has been exposed to the decomposition chemicals that a dead body creates. This takes place in a corpse when the body starts to decompose, it breaks the chemical bonds in the hair. The cuticle layer will actually react to the decomposition fluid of the body and curl or "ruffle" up. Another thing that happens is that black rings will start to form in the cortex layer of the hair shaft which also can be easily detected under a microscope.

I know this because I'm a hairstylist and we actually had to study this when I was in school. We worked on this project for a few weeks. This was something that really stuck with me.

I can't believe I actually got to finally use that to help someone understand forensic evidence.

Welcome to the Caylee forum and some of our threads overlap on topic.

Thank you for explanation.

 

[Chanler]

I'm just curious why in the world you think that A. The FBI is not an accurate source for information and B. It is so difficult to determine rather basic scientific information such as the difference in dead vs. live human tissue, and DNA identification?

Hi Librarian Mama; your caution is laudible: Guilt is determined by juries, not by crime sleuth posters. And, as you suggest, the FBI has been wrong more than once before. All that said, the strong lean seems to be towards death: The combination of the initial DNA report; the multiple reports of decomposition; the absence of Caylee sightings or communication; Casey's suspicous actions, conflicting statements, and lack of cooperation in the official investigation and search for her daughter.

 

[seagull65]

The dead rat/mouse under your deck does not even come close.

A vietnam veteran friend of mine once told me that corpses in battlefields were often not too smelly, that the smell mainly depended on what or how much matter was in the bowel, basically, or whether the bowel was pierced. Just his opinion though.

 

[Anais]

For the sake of accuracy....

Dr. Michael Baden explained that after death, a "band" forms around the hair that is not found in the hair of a living person. This is how they can tell if a hair came from a living or deceased person. The hair found in the trunk was tested & did have that 'band' present.

That's one excellent point, and there are too many others to list! IMO no psychological test or shrink needs to tell me that Casey is a pathological liar- SHE IS ONE!!! I don't know is she a narcissitic personality disorder but she's sure exhibits so many classic symptoms of this disorder!!!

Also do you realize that the only time-ONLY TIME this woman has shown any emotion in relation to this case etc. is when she cried for HERSELF AS SHE WAS SENT TO JAIL without bail. Very disturbing and quite sad. It sends a very clear and strong message to me as a mother of three boys.

I once lost my 3 year old son in a mall and I cannot tell you the hyseterical panic that I experienced.(thankfully for only 28 minutes.) It was the longest time in my life. I can understand you fence sitters for whatever your reasons. But I am absolutely certain with utter sadness that poor Caylee is past us now in heaven.

But to say that Casey isn't what and who she is, nope not going there. She knows where that poor child is yet refuses to disclose the info. Why do you think that is???!!! Because the child is no longer with us and she is continuing to fabricate the most ridiculous stories of all time. And I though Susan Smith was bad. At least she came clean!!!

 

[*Kat*]

I am with you!

Me too! I know & see what everything points too but I'll be darned if I am losing hope. My fragile heart cannot allow me too. I am extremely jaded after having a child. I cannot fathom what happened so I choose not too. Besides, there is just so much info, parties involved, it leaves a glimmer of hope IMO. Please don't flame my gullibility.

 

[librarian_mama]

Usually "pathological lying" refers to calculated lying for a specific purpose. "Compulsive lying" often refers to lying for no purpose, in an uncontrolled way. For example, telling lies that will be found out easily. Some compulsive liars believe their own lies while they are telling them, (maybe kind of lost in the fantasy world they are creating), but afterward when they realize what they've said, they get into an ongoing situation of having to lie more and more to cover previous lies. They say compulsive liars may lie due to growing up with a constant fear of punishment, or because they grew up with a parent who had the same problem. Compulsive liars feel safer and more comfortable when they are lying than when they are telling the truth.
Pathological lying usually refers to purposeful lying, for self-serving purposes, and often with a disregard for the rights or well-being of others.

So Casey was lying for no purpose, getting lost in a fantasy world, and just continued to lie because she was afraid she would get in trouble for lying?

You know, we're talking about the life of a little girl here. This wasn't Casey in the principal's office getting questioned about writing on a wall--these were detectives asking her where her precious baby was so that they could bring this angel home.

Your own definition of a pathological liar should have a picture of Casey beside it.

 

[seagull65]

Thanks for the info. Very informative. We need more of that from the detectives in this case. None the less call me stupid, I still prefer to hold out hope until I can no longer.

Me, too. And I heard one scientist on Headline News say that hair decomposing on its own or still attached to a body after death both take on these decomposition characteristics. So I'm waiting to see what evidence will finally be presented, etc, and how experts will distinguish the two.

 

[librarian_mama]

A vietnam veteran friend of mine once told me that corpses in battlefields were often not too smelly, that the smell mainly depended on what or how much matter was in the bowel, basically, or whether the bowel was pierced. Just his opinion though.

????? Yeah, I guess a corpse smells better in a field than it does closed in a trunk.

 

[LiveLoveLaughLiza]

A vietnam veteran friend of mine once told me that corpses in battlefields were often not too smelly, that the smell mainly depended on what or how much matter was in the bowel, basically, or whether the bowel was pierced. Just his opinion though.

Then he never happened upon a body that had started to decompose. My father is a vetern of Vietnam and can to this day smell the rotting and decomposing humans. As others have stated....it is a smell you will never forget.....as much as you want to.

 

[MommaShark]

Me too! I know & see what everything points too but I'll be darned if I am losing hope. My fragile heart cannot allow me too. I am extremely jaded after having a child. I cannot fathom what happened so I choose not too. Besides, there is just so much info, parties involved, it leaves a glimmer of hope IMO. Please don't flame my gullibility.

The first time I heard about this case was when my 3 yr old daughter looked at the TV and said, "Mommy is that me?". I looked up and there was Caylee. Have been hooked since. I just don't want to believe until I have to.

 

[magiemay]

Usually "pathological lying" refers to calculated lying for a specific purpose. "Compulsive lying" often refers to lying for no purpose, in an uncontrolled way. For example, telling lies that will be found out easily. Some compulsive liars believe their own lies while they are telling them, (maybe kind of lost in the fantasy world they are creating), but afterward when they realize what they've said, they get into an ongoing situation of having to lie more and more to cover previous lies. They say compulsive liars may lie due to growing up with a constant fear of punishment, or because they grew up with a parent who had the same problem. Compulsive liars feel safer and more comfortable when they are lying than when they are telling the truth.
Pathological lying usually refers to purposeful lying, for self-serving purposes, and often with a disregard for the rights or well-being of others.

Seagull Are you saying CA did not lie for her own benefit? purposful, self serving and with a disregard for the rights or well being of others? please explain as this is over my head!!!