South Africa - Martin, 55, Theresa, 54, Rudi van Breda, 22, murdered, 26 Jan 2015 #2

[JudgeJudi]

I wouldn't think so. She had 5 axe wounds to the head, one cracked her skull and one severed her ear nearly into two pieces. I know there is a school of thought that thinks she may have been involved but these injuries were far more deadly than an attempt to show non lethal injuries, IMO.

And she had defensive wounds too, unlike HvB.

 

[Tortoise]

JJ, any guesses what this could mean. Is B suggesting some other injury to Rudi's body was found PM? I really struggle with the SA accent.

I'm reading between the lines here.

In Henri's statement it strikes me as odd that he was at pains to point out (more than once from memory, I haven't listened to it again) that he heard Rudi making gurgling sounds. So Henri is finding a way of explaining something - Rudi had survived the attack, like Marli. This makes me think he is compensating for a finding of some sort, and I expect it will be that a further injury was inflicted after the main assault. Perhaps one injury didn't bleed out as much as the other injuries, because there was a weaker pulse by that time.

Henri can't get around that by saying Rudi didn't die straight away. I think it's going to be very interesting and if I'm right there will be much arguing to come over Dr Anthony's findings.

I'm also wondering if, because of Marli's condition and the immediate surgery she required, they weren't able to do the same sort of examination on her injuries, but that they would have shown something similar, a later assault on her jugular vein, and that is why she survived the 4 hours. It's possible that because she was lying so close to her mum that Henri couldn't get to Marli without very obviously disturbing the crime scene with foot prints he wouldn't be able to clean up.

 

[Tortoise]

It's laughable that a murderous laughing axe-man would ignore Henri and attack everyone else. He shouted from the bathroom in his version for goodness sake, so there's no denying he gave his presence away. I expect Henri had to account for what a neighbour might have heard because he didn't know what their statements would be. Rudi shouting for help, his mum shouting too, and Henri laughing.

Reminds me so much of Pistorius tailoring his version of screams and shouts, even Reeva's screams, to account for all the witness evidence. What pathetic low-lifes these psychopaths are.

 

[Marples]

I wouldn't think so. She had 5 axe wounds to the head, one cracked her skull and one severed her ear nearly into two pieces. I know there is a school of thought that thinks she may have been involved but these injuries were far more deadly than an attempt to show non lethal injuries, IMO.

Yes. It just seems odd that she wasn't dead and he didn't finish her off even once he realised she was still alive. Maybe he just ran out of puff: it would be quite strenuous business I suppose. Very strange though. Perhaps he thought she was dead and only realised she wasn't when it was too late to kill her without the time gap being problematic? I mean her being alive is probably the thing most likely to get him off. Because Botha will surely argue if he was murdering scum why leave her alive to tell on him? And if Galloway hinted it's because he liked her, then why attack her at all: he couldn't have known she'd survive, only hoped if he didn't kill her because he liked her. It's just such an odd factor in things.


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[Interested Bystander]

I'm reading between the lines here.

In Henri's statement it strikes me as odd that he was at pains to point out (more than once from memory, I haven't listened to it again) that he heard Rudi making gurgling sounds. So Henri is finding a way of explaining something - Rudi had survived the attack, like Marli. This makes me think he is compensating for a finding of some sort, and I expect it will be that a further injury was inflicted after the main assault. Perhaps one injury didn't bleed out as much as the other injuries, because there was a weaker pulse by that time.

Henri can't get around that by saying Rudi didn't die straight away. I think it's going to be very interesting and if I'm right there will be much arguing to come over Dr Anthony's findings.

I'm also wondering if, because of Marli's condition and the immediate surgery she required, they weren't able to do the same sort of examination on her injuries, but that they would have shown something similar, a later assault on her jugular vein, and that is why she survived the 4 hours. It's possible that because she was lying so close to her mum that Henri couldn't get to Marli without very obviously disturbing the crime scene with foot prints he wouldn't be able to clean up.

Very good points. Maybe the knife wounds were administered some time after the axe injuries. The would make the whole case even more gruesome.

 

[Marples]

It's laughable that a murderous laughing axe-man would ignore Henri and attack everyone else. He shouted from the bathroom in his version for goodness sake, so there's no denying he gave his presence away. I expect Henri had to account for what a neighbour might have heard because he didn't know what their statements would be. Rudi shouting for help, his mum shouting too, and Henri laughing.

Reminds me so much of Pistorius tailoring his version of screams and shouts, even Reeva's screams, to account for all the witness evidence. What pathetic low-lifes these psychopaths are.

Agreed! Surely the mystery attacker, once alerted to a well built man, would seek him out? And if he's in the bathroom doorway, backing him into the bathroom would give almost no margin for error for an attacker (OP case showed that!). It's just staggering anyone could believe HvB's hooby glooby clap trap stories!


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[Tortoise]

I don't hold out much hope for the trial being televised. I'd love to hear Henri giving evidence. Probably we'll get some more high profile reporters and commentary once he takes the stand.

 

[Tortoise]

I'm not sure if this has been posted before and I missed it. It's just a little bit more detail from witness Dr Marianne Tiemensma

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/N...flicted-injuries-forensic-specialist-20170518

She came to the same conclusion regarding the wounds on his right forearm. Van Breda is right-handed.
“This is not a typical area where one would expect ‘defence wounds’ with sharp instrument attacks. Defence wounds are more likely to be found on the ventral/palmar aspect of the forearm or wrist, elbows, palmar surface of the hand in an attempt to grab the weapon, or on the backs of the hands or fingers from non-grasping movements in an attempt to ward off a weapon.”

She said Van Breda’s claims that the knife became stuck in one of the stab wounds was virtually impossible

PS I've read that last sentence before but I just repeated it because I like it so much

 

[Estelle]

I don't hold out much hope for the trial being televised. I'd love to hear Henri giving evidence. Probably we'll get some more high profile reporters and commentary once he takes the stand.

Are we sure that Henri himself will give evidence?

I'm also curious about whether Marli will take the stand and what she can remember.

 

[Tortoise]

Released publicly for the first time, this photograph of murder accused Henri van Breda in an ambulance on the morning his parents and brother were murdered, showed he was not their assailant.
Defence advocate Pieter Botha made this dramatic argument while presenting this picture in the Western Cape High Court this week. He was conducting a probing cross-examination of the SAPS forensic hair expert, Colonel Henry Stewart.
Showing van Breda with short cropped hair, he argued that the 200mm-long hair Marli van Breda was clutching on the operating table after the attack could not have belonged to her brother.
Full story at www.iol.co.za/ios

 

[Tortoise]

Are we sure that Henri himself will give evidence?

I'm also curious about whether Marli will take the stand and what she can remember.

I suppose there's no guarantee he will.

 

[Tortoise]

[video=youtube;ngB81xkpXBI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngB81xkpXBI[/video]

http://www.capetownetc.com/news/inside-van-breda-trial-weeks-talking-points-tracey-stewart/

 

[Tortoise]

I saw a brief video clip of Henri getting up to leave court after that sobbing episode and he didn't look upset at all. I can't find it now, may have been uploaded on twitter at the time.

 

[Interested Bystander]

So his hair was short - darn it! LOL

 

[Tortoise]

I saw a brief video clip of Henri getting up to leave court after that sobbing episode and he didn't look upset at all. I can't find it now, may have been uploaded on twitter at the time.

It's a 15 second video in this journalist's timeline on 17th May if anyone wants to watch it.

https://twitter.com/JulianJansen

 

[Interested Bystander]

Released publicly for the first time, this photograph of murder accused Henri van Breda in an ambulance on the morning his parents and brother were murdered, showed he was not their assailant.
Defence advocate Pieter Botha made this dramatic argument while presenting this picture in the Western Cape High Court this week. He was conducting a probing cross-examination of the SAPS forensic hair expert, Colonel Henry Stewart.
Showing van Breda with short cropped hair, he argued that the 200mm-long hair Marli van Breda was clutching on the operating table after the attack could not have belonged to her brother.
Full story at www.iol.co.za/ios

For somebody who had fought off a mad axeman he seems to have come off very lightly - just a few grazes. Almost laughable injuries. I suppose that is why he needed to say it was surpisingly easy to disarm the intruder which begs the question why didn't anybody else try before they were struck down. Maybe they did. We will have to see what their "other" injuries are.

 

[Tortoise]

When Botha said Henri wet himself, I wondered whether he would have the authority to say that unless there is some evidence of it, because it's supplementary information to his statement.

I hope they examined his shorts, and the crime scene, for urine. Did he say whereabouts he was unconscious?

 

[Marples]

Released publicly for the first time, this photograph of murder accused Henri van Breda in an ambulance on the morning his parents and brother were murdered, showed he was not their assailant.
Defence advocate Pieter Botha made this dramatic argument while presenting this picture in the Western Cape High Court this week. He was conducting a probing cross-examination of the SAPS forensic hair expert, Colonel Henry Stewart.
Showing van Breda with short cropped hair, he argued that the 200mm-long hair Marli van Breda was clutching on the operating table after the attack could not have belonged to her brother.
Full story at www.iol.co.za/ios

She may even have grabbed her Mums hair in trying to fight HvB off. All that picture proves to me is how ridiculous his wounds look. There's barely a mark on him, they are almost symmetrical and look like he wasn't thrashing about fighting for his life. And how little blood is there on him! It's almost a scandal they didn't arrest him on the spot, laughing at his stupidity!


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[L2L]

This video of the plea hearing (filmed from the right-hand side of the court as you look at the bench) contains a bit extra not included in the video with clearer audio.

Botha is reading the General Averments – the facts which support HvB’s plea of not guilty.

The relevant part commences at 14:05 re the exhibits of the post mortem examinations

Exhibit K

Rudi’s post mortem

…

(4) That Dr Anthony noted the findings on the post mortem report No. WC/12/0034/2015 marked as Exhibit L. (It is not admitted that all these findings are correct)


[video=youtube;pSKKN4GJCTA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSKKN4GJCTA[/video]

Those twin bald heads are a distraction! Judge Desai reminds me of David Suchet's Hercule Poirot! I imagine HvB and his legal team would be worried that Marli's memory might return at any time.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Released publicly for the first time, this photograph of murder accused Henri van Breda in an ambulance on the morning his parents and brother were murdered, showed he was not their assailant.
Defence advocate Pieter Botha made this dramatic argument while presenting this picture in the Western Cape High Court this week. He was conducting a probing cross-examination of the SAPS forensic hair expert, Colonel Henry Stewart.
Showing van Breda with short cropped hair, he argued that the 200mm-long hair Marli van Breda was clutching on the operating table after the attack could not have belonged to her brother.
Full story at www.iol.co.za/ios

For somebody who had fought off a mad axeman he seems to have come off very lightly - just a few grazes. Almost laughable injuries. I suppose that is why he needed to say it was surpisingly easy to disarm the intruder which begs the question why didn't anybody else try before they were struck down. Maybe they did. We will have to see what their "other" injuries are.

She may even have grabbed her Mums hair in trying to fight HvB off. All that picture proves to me is how ridiculous his wounds look. There's barely a mark on him, they are almost symmetrical and look like he wasn't thrashing about fighting for his life. And how little blood is there on him! It's almost a scandal they didn't arrest him on the spot, laughing at his stupidity!


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It's shocking that HvB is out on bail!!! He's not fooling anyone, his defence team are fighting a losing battle, imo. Botha talking about being ambushed, that's an insult to the state and court and I'm glad J Desai chided him for it. The hair isn't important but Botha is making it appear that it is.

I'm now thinking that Marli was not suppose to survive. If her throat was cut before he made the call, he knew it would take the ambulance at least 20 minutes to arrive and he delayed it further by his lack of urgency when speaking with Janine P, that's why she assumed it was a prank call. I wouldn't be surprised if he wet himself when he found out Marli was taken to the hospital and could survive.