'Splain' this 1 for me please....About Bedwetters:

[rashomon]

HI rashomon. I was responding to the post that said UTI's are exclusively from having sex.
You are right in that they are two completely differnt ailments.However, it is also very important to note that vaginitis is a catch all that refers to any inflammation or infection of the vagina. It would be helpful to know specifically what kind of vaginitis she suffered from, how often and how it was treated. there are certain kinds of vagintis that can only be from sexual contact, if I am not mistaken.
But in general:


ETA:http://www.drhull.com/EncyMaster/V/vaginitis.html
vaginitis, vaginosis

Vaginitis in little girls is a very common condition; usually an infection (vaginosis), sometimes an irritation (vaginitis). It usually starts to be a problem when the little girl starts going to the potty by herself and wiping from back to front or back and forth - in any case, not "front to back and drop the paper" as she should. Symptoms are itching, burning with urination (mimicing bladder infection), and perhaps a yellow or green vaginal discharge (which mother often thinks erroneously to be a yeast infection). Poor hygeine is the cause; good hygeine is often curative.

Ramsey advocates have quoted many times the 'bubble bath' explanation offered in the link, because they know that the the top pediatric experts' analysis of JB's damaged vaginal and hymeneal tissue points to chronic sexual abuse.
But the use of bubble bath does not explain Dr. McCann's findings: exposure of vaginal structures (the rugae) which are normally hidden, thickening of the inferior rim of the hymeneal tissue at the seven o' clock position, irregularity of the edges of the hymen, and the vaginal orifice being twice the normal size for child of JB's age.

 

[JBean]

Ramsey advocates have quoted many times the 'bubble bath' explanation offered in the link, because they know that the the top pediatric experts' analysis of JB's damaged vaginal and hymeneal tissue points to chronic sexual abuse.
But the use of bubble bath does not explain Dr. McCann's findings: exposure of vaginal structures (the rugae) which are normally hidden, thickening of the inferior rim of the hymeneal tissue at the seven o' clock position, irregularity of the edges of the hymen, and the vaginal orifice being twice the normal size for child of JB's age.

I am only speaking to the vaginitis rashomon. The issue was that vagnitis and UTI's are only caused by sexual abuse and molestation. I was disputing that speculation. But with that being said,there are certain types of vagintis that are proof positive of sexual contact.I am wondering if she was diagnosed with that specific vaginitis, which would then confirm, not point to, but confirm sexual molestation.

ETA: I am not necesarily disputing sexual molestation, just trying to look at the parts of the picture, which then lead to the whole. thanks.

 

[rashomon]

I thought when the body was found that while the underwear JB wore was bloodstained, they had no urine on them. But, that the leggings were wet and smelled of urine.

I may be wrong, but that was my interpretation.

Question to all: is it true that there was no urine on JB's underwear but urine on her leggings?

 

[JMO8778]

I am only speaking to the vaginitis rashomon. The issue was that vagnitis and UTI's are only caused by sexual abuse and molestation. I was disputing that speculation. But with that being said,there are certain types of vagintis that are proof positive of sexual contact.I am wondering if she was diagnosed with that specific vaginitis, which would then confirm, not point to, but confirm sexual molestation.

ETA: I am not necesarily disputing sexual molestation, just trying to look at the parts of the picture, which then lead to the whole. thanks.

Was JB ever tested for any STI's? can that be done after death?

 

[Solace]

Ramsey advocates have quoted many times the 'bubble bath' explanation offered in the link, because they know that the the top pediatric experts' analysis of JB's damaged vaginal and hymeneal tissue points to chronic sexual abuse.
But the use of bubble bath does not explain Dr. McCann's findings: exposure of vaginal structures (the rugae) which are normally hidden, thickening of the inferior rim of the hymeneal tissue at the seven o' clock position, irregularity of the edges of the hymen, and the vaginal orifice being twice the normal size for child of JB's age.

Rash, do you think John was sexually molesting JB?

 

[Bev]

What I think is interesting is that the long underwear at least, were anteriorly urine stained and the underwear were urine stained in the crotch area. You know, when death occurs, very often the bladder and the sphincter relax and you know the rest...

Do you think the "watery red fluid in the vaginal vault" might have been because she was in the bathtub when the accident occurred?

 

[JMO8778]

I agree JBean, my daughter had a UTI at about 3 and the culprit was two-fold, incomplete wiping and a bubble bath product that was in her Christmas stocking. We promptly stopped all bubble baths and I supervised her hygiene more closely until she got the hang of it. No big.



Eve

That happened to me as a child as well.
Is Dr. Beuf an idiot of some sort?He suggested plain water baths.I would think at least using a scent-free baby bath product would get a child cleaner and less likely to get more irritation.
And for that matter, he could or maybe should have suggested those soft cloth flushable wipes for children.I think those were out back in the mid 90's.

 

[JMO8778]

Housekeeper LHP said JonBenet left a fecal stain the size of a grapefruit in her bed - that's more than just a skid mark here and there.

The only explantion I can think of for that is chronic constipation, esp. if it leads to an impaction.The result can be incontinence until the impaction is eliminated,as the body will try to rid itself of it little by little.The grapeftuit-size poop could have been the result of an impaction being completely eliminated all at once(ie-the last of it) ,if indeed that was the problem.

 

[JMO8778]

My oldest child was a bedwetter, but not the other two. It would not have occurred to me to put even the non-bedwetters in bed without taking them to the potty first. It was routine, along with teethbrushing and at least washing hands, feet and face (if there wasn't time for a bath).

I do not believe that Patsy didn't at a minimum wash JonBenet off before dinner with the Whites on the 25th. Didn't the Ramseys do stockings with candy? I remember what my kids were like after a morning of stocking treats and playing with toys on the floor. When my kids were little, unless they had been freshly bathed, they were wiped off before being taken out.

The next day, after her daughter had been found dead, I would think Patsy would have been going over the previous day mentally, over and over again trying to remember anything and everything. (for clues) I think she, for sure, would know even years later whether or not she had given her daughter a bath and just about everything that had happened around that time.

I've always thought the not remembering if she had a bath or not was to account for all the R's dna left on her.My guess is I bet she had one b/f they went to dinner.

 

[julianne]

Ask any doctor, ask your gynocologist, they will tell you only nuns in a convent don't get urinary tract infections. It is from sex. Usually oral sex. Google it.

Urinary tract infections are NOT "usually from oral sex." While it can happen in some instances, it does not mean that if you have a urinary tract infection it is because someone performed oral sex on you.

There is no doctor that will say that nuns in convents never get urinary tract infections! Any doctor who would make that claim would need to have their ability to practice put into question. And if you came up with that by "googling it" as you suggested, all I have to say is that anyone can put anything on the web. It doesn't make it true.

Virgins can and do get urinary tract infections.

 

[julianne]

I don't know. I can remember 9/11 like it happened yesterday. My mom can still remember what she was doing when she heard JFK had been shot.

SuperDave, I too can remember 9/11 like it happened yesterday. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone living in America who couldn't. Same goes with my mom and JFK.

BUT, that doesn't mean that memory loss doesn't happen when a major traumatic event happens in your life. That's basic psychology. Your mind is a very powerful thing, capable of so much more than we even know today. If something is too painful, you're mind will "erase" it, so to speak. Memory loss in PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) is widely known and documented by those in the field.

 

[JBean]

The only explantion I can think of for that is chronic constipation, esp. if it leads to an impaction.The result can be incontinence until the impaction is eliminated,as the body will try to rid itself of it little by little.The grapeftuit-size poop could have been the result of an impaction being completely eliminated all at once(ie-the last of it) ,if indeed that was the problem.

I went through this with one child, and it was severe.What a nightmare that was. This was the child that just did not want to stop and use the restroom. He never wanted to stop partying on the playground.
The matter that released itself in his pants was very loose and came out by sheer gravity right past the impaction. In preschool and kindergarten he often had soiled pants. It probably started younger than JBR and it was an ongoing problem, with degress of severity over a period of years. Sometimes a big problem, sometimes not..It was tough to conquer, but we finally did.
This comes from constantly ignoring the "signals" to go use the potty.IT ultimately gets to where those signals have no meaning to these kids anymore. I am really wondering if this is something that JBR also did. but I was only able to help him conquer this with the help and guidance of his pediatrician. So one would guess it would be memorialized somewhere if she did suffer from this.

 

[julianne]

Housekeeper LHP said JonBenet left a fecal stain the size of a grapefruit in her bed - that's more than just a skid mark here and there.

Burke said JonBenet's incontinence was a big issue, and so did LHP, despite Patsy's claim that it wasn't. I'm more inclined to believe what Burke and LHP have to say over chronic Ramnesiac Patsy.


Patsy never took JonBenet to a pediatric urologist, which I find interesting....

Please provide links if you have them. This is one of the main problems in this case--you never know what is true and what isn't. Who did LHP say that to? Was it in an interview? Is that transcript on the internet? If not, then how would ANYONE who wasn't a key player in the investigation know that? Who did Burke say that to? In an interview?

I'm not questioning at all whether you read that, I'm sure you did. But where did you read that? I have a hard time disseminating what real facts are versus what has been placed on the net by either RDI, IDI, or RST. Some of the things I have read, when you follow the trail to the actual origination, turns out to be nothing but internet blabber by people with an agenda, or the actual facts in the case have been so muddied throughout the years that by now what's being said is in direct opposition to the original statement. That's why I try to find out the origination of these statements.

Did Patsy say that she never took JonBenet to a pediatric urologist? Was it in one of the interviews?

 

[jubie]

I went through this with one child, and it was severe.What a nightmare that was. This was the child that just did not want to stop and use the restroom. He never wanted to stop partying on the playground.
The matter that released itself in his pants was very loose and came out by sheer gravity right past the impaction. In preschool and kindergarten he often had soiled pants. It probably started younger than JBR and it was an ongoing problem, with degress of severity over a period of years. Sometimes a big problem, sometimes not..It was tough to conquer, but we finally did.
This comes from constantly ignoring the "signals" to go use the potty.IT ultimately gets to where those signals have no meaning to these kids anymore. I am really wondering if this is something that JBR also did. but I was only able to help him conquer this with the help and guidance of his pediatrician. So one would guess it would be memorialized somewhere if she did suffer from this.

I guess we're lucky our little girl didn't end up with this and I'm sorry to hear your little guy suffered lie that.

Our little girl would do what we called "The Potty Dance" all the while insisting she didn't have to 'go'! Just one more minute playing!!!

 

[JBean]

I guess we're lucky our little girl didn't end up with this and I'm sorry to hear your little guy suffered lie that.

Our little girl would do what we called "The Potty Dance" all the while insisting she didn't have to 'go'! Just one more minute playing!!!

Cripes we could see all the boys do the extended version of the potty dance in the outfield while playing baseball.lol!
All my boys would put it off til the last possible second, but this one in particular would wait even longer than that.This one really suffered. he just hated to go. It was really difficult once he was severly impacted. I am glad he is all grown up now. don't have that problem anymore.
But, it does sound similar to some of the things posted regarding JBR and her potty habits.

 

[T-Rex]

Two things have been nagging me--I'm not sure why.

One is tights. No one has ever mentioned any, and it would be natural for JB to have them on under her velvet pants on a cold night. I've always assumed John put the size 12 panties on her, and so also the long-johns. I think Patsy took the velvet pants off, and left her in tights. I'm not sure why that's important. Where are the tights?

The other is Patsy coloring her hair. Someone said there was an odd smell--I think--in JB's bathroom. Patsy's shower wasn't working, and she said she colored her hair on Christmas. I'm guessing she did it in JB's bathroom. Again, not sure why that's nagging me...something missing? Something wrong? Like the empty hair dye container?

 

[luthersmama]

My younger daughter had potty issues up until about 3rd grade. Not wanting to take the time, not wanting to admit she had to go. She just had this attitude that SHE was in charge, not her bladder, not her mom, not her teachers. Had a few embarrassing disasters.

Now she suffers from irritable bowel syndrome. Can't help wondering if there is a connection. Constipated one week, diarrahea the next. Especially when stressed by school.

I don't think we can draw conclusions from JBR's potty issues alone. As others have said, maybe the bigger picture is important.

However, I have to say that I have not followed this case religiously. I don't know all the "primary sources". But when I see "facts" tossed about, like the size of JBR's vaginal opening, I have to wonder what the real authority for that "fact" is. I would like to believe every "fact" I read here, but I know from other cases that I have followed more closely that "facts" sometimes develop from totally unsubstantiated rumors.

 

[julianne]

However, I have to say that I have not followed this case religiously. I don't know all the "primary sources". But when I see "facts" tossed about, like the size of JBR's vaginal opening, I have to wonder what the real authority for that "fact" is. I would like to believe every "fact" I read here, but I know from other cases that I have followed more closely that "facts" sometimes develop from totally unsubstantiated rumors.

Exactly, Luthersmama! That's a HUGE problem in this case....real facts vs. what others claim to be facts. It's like the old game of "telephone". You start out with one statement, and by the time it goes all the way down to the end person, you end up with something COMPLETELY different than the original statement.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

julianne -

From Steve Thomas's book, hb, page 35:

"For the first six months Hoffman-Pugh worked there, she said, JonBenet wet the bed every night, and Patsy even had the girl in pull-up diapers. Then the bed-wetting stopped, but it had resumed about a month ago. When Hoffman-Pugh arrived for work, she said, Patsy already had the bed stripped and the sheets going in the washing machine.

She told the police that the problem had also extened to JonBenet soiling the bed, and recalled once finding fecal matter the size of a grapefruit on the sheets."


So LHP told police about that incident, and Thomas is relating in his book. I believe the part about the incontinence being a bigger issue than Patsy let on is also found in ST's book, but I'll have to look tomorrow.

I also find it very interesting that JonBenet's toileting issues let up and then resumed. That certainly doesn't sound like it was an issue of her bladder being too small or her brain not waking her during the night to use the bathroom.

As far as Patsy not taking JonBenet to a pediatric urologist, she has never said she did, and no one has ever said there were any medical records from pediatric urologist. I would think that if JB had been to see a specialist about her incontinence that that would have come out back in the day when the discussion of JB's toileting issues was a hot new topic.

If you can find any record of JonBenet having been seen by a pediatric urologist I would love to hear of it.

 

[Toltec]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Toltec,
Thank you, thank you, thank you! :clap:

This was exactly my point in starting this thread! LE didn't question PR about changing JBR into 'night clothes' without putting on pull-ups nor did they intensely question PR about why she didn't wake JBR up at the 'usual time' to go to the potty. Yet, JonBenet was changed from her white top and velvet pants which she wore to the White's party! Adding pull-ups or taking her to the potty was the usual nighttime ritual and NEITHER were done according to PR. This should have been a HUGE RED FLAG that there was a big old green 'fly in this ointment' and the investigators were IDIOTS for letting it slide!

PR changed JBR into long, tight bottoms which would have been very difficult to have put on a child who was asleep. IF she went to the trouble of putting those on a "zonked out" JBR, why in Heaven's Name would she not have tried to have gotten her to "potty" first or, at the very least, why wouldn't she have put on pull-ups as she changed her for bed!?!

PR saying she was "zonked out" was said for one reason and one reason only: PR hoped that saying she was "zonked out" would "explain" why none of the "usual bedtime habits" took place! If it weren't for the pineapple it would have totally worked too! After all, even with the pineapple, this line of questioning STILL NEVER HAPPENED! :banghead:

Great point! How is it possible for Patsy to take the tights off and place the longjohns on without waking a "zonked" JonBenet? Tights are hard to get off dead weight and even harder to place tight longjohns. JonBenet, if she was asleep would have awakened. Perhaps she did, then asked Patsy to get her a snack because she was hungry.

Vaginitis is caused by bacteria and the symptoms could be as minor as irritation and major as in discharge.

Patsy claims that when JonBenet was irritated, she would apply Desitin. She claimed that JonBenet was constantly "wet down there", hence the rash.