State can't force voters to prove citizenship

[waitin'4thewrld2chg]

No, they cannot vote and it is rare that they try. The Supreme Court merely struck down one of the many attempts to suppress voting by those likely to vote for Democratic candidates.

Amen, amen, and amen, Nova.

 

[Betty P]

The thing is, they wouldn't have to prove citizenship (don't have to be a citizen to have an SSN or tax id, and birth certificates can be substituted with another ID), so their DL is still not proof.

Three words: voter ID cards.

That requirement would have to apply for everyone, meaning everyone would have to order a copy of their BC and take it to the BOE along with their other proof of residence and ID and apply for a voter ID card. When it comes to election law, you can't pick and choose who has to provide a new level of ID and who doesn't.

The new laws the SCOTUS struck down were going to require everyone to produce their BC when renewing their driver's license or getting a new SS card, all in the name of voter ID.

 

[Betty P]

The thing is... you don't need to be a citizen to have a driver's license, nor do you need to be a citizen to have an SSN. People here on visas can get a driver's license, permanent residents can get an SSN. So it baffles me that they don't ask for proof of citizenship when voting... Those other government IDs prove nothing.

In those cases, they're in the system as people who aren't citizens and can't vote. Those databases are cross referenced by computer programs to voter registration records. Anyone on a visa who registers to vote is automatically red flagged. They can't register.

Every poll worker has a polling book - a computer printout of people in their assigned precinct who are legally allowed to vote. The printout also includes names of people who, for whatever reason, are not allowed to vote.

If someone shows up at the polling place on Election Day asking for a ballot, but isn't on the list is not allowed to cast a ballot. If they have a valid photo ID with proof of address, they may be allowed to cast a "provisional" ballot. That means their information is taken down, they sign a pledge and they mark a ballot. That ballot is not counted. It goes into a separate envelope for provisional ballots. It's then goes to the BOE where election officials from both political parties review the ballot and cross check the voter's identity and information in the computer database. If the person has already cast an absentee ballot or is in the US on a visa, or has already cast a ballot in another location - their provisional ballot is not counted.

Provisional ballots can take a long time to research and count. They're not automatically counted, they're set aside and reviewed. Most are usually processed within a couple of weeks, that's why you see revised totals a few weeks after the election.

Poll workers are under a lot of restrictions about who gets a ballot and who doesn't. Everything is computerized these days, so if there's a mistake or fraud, its found pretty quickly and the poll worker can be subject to prosecution.

To reiterate - People who are not citizens, if allowed to get a work visa, SSN or DL, are going to have a special notation of such in their computer file at DMV, BOE, and Social Security that says they are not citizens. Those red flags will prevent them from registering to vote or from casting a ballot. It's computers, people. There are databases that are checked and coss-checked before you can vote.

 

[Betty P]

Counterfeit Social Security Cards? I can hook ya up with those who make them.

Counterfeit Drivers License cards? Those too.


I don't know what the answer is (I really don't), but we sure seem pretty lax about making it too easy for those who want to vote fraudulently. For some local elections, a few votes can make a difference.

What are the silly myths floating around the internet?

Your counterfeit SS card and DL may get you into a nightclub, but if you're registering to vote, it will be immediately cross-checked against the SS and Bureau of Motor Vehicles databases. It will be caught there, quickly. If its not a valid number, you don't get to register or cast a ballot unless you can provide further proof of your identity and citizenship.

People are not allowed to register and vote on the same day. BOE's require a period to check identity before allowing newly registered voters to cast a ballot. You can always ask for a provisional ballot, but if your bogus ID isn't in the official SS & BMV databases, your ballot is thrown out.

Again, if you're a doubter, I suggest you do your civic duty and sign up to work at a polling place next election. You'll get quite an education.

 

[Deleted member 96356]

That requirement would have to apply for everyone, meaning everyone would have to order a copy of their BC and take it to the BOE along with their other proof of residence and ID and apply for a voter ID card. When it comes to election law, you can't pick and choose who has to provide a new level of ID and who doesn't.

The new laws the SCOTUS struck down were going to require everyone to produce their BC when renewing their driver's license or getting a new SS card, all in the name of voter ID.

Well of course it would have to apply to everyone. I don't advocate discrimination between voters.

So... if databases are automatically cross-checked and people who aren't citizens (and thus ineligible to vote) are already flagged, why the proposed need to bring a BC when getting a DL renewed or SS card replaced - aren't those files already marked one way or the other?

 

[Nova]

There is no reason, HawksGirl. This is all part of a concerted effort by the Republican Party to discourage voting by those unlikely to support GOP candidates. That's all it is, plain and simple.

Today's GOP is not our parents' Republican Party. With few exceptions, the GOP is fundamentally anti-democracy.

 

[Sonya610]

There is no reason, HawksGirl. This is all part of a concerted effort by the Republican Party to discourage voting by those unlikely to support GOP candidates. That's all it is, plain and simple.

Today's GOP is not our parents' Republican Party. With few exceptions, the GOP is fundamentally anti-democracy.

Which explains the last 8 years! Evil geniuses those folks.

 

[Nova]

Which explains the last 8 years! Evil geniuses those folks.

The last 8 years of total government standstill? Yes, the GOP opposition to democratic rule is a huge part of the problem, which is why even issues favored by huge majorities of the American people can't get through Congress.

But I readily admit the Democrats have also contributed to the deadlock, albeit in different ways.

P.S. I never called GOP strategists "geniuses" (though no doubt a few of them are). I merely mentioned what they are TRYING to do.

 

[Sonya610]

The last 8 years of total government standstill? Yes, the GOP opposition to democratic rule is a huge part of the problem, which is why even issues favored by huge majorities of the American people can't get through Congress.

But I readily admit the Democrats have also contributed to the deadlock, albeit in different ways.

P.S. I never called GOP strategists "geniuses" (though no doubt a few of them are). I merely mentioned what they are TRYING to do.

Just realize...Gay Rights are NOT a big thing in Latin America or Africa or the Middle East or even Asia.

Gay rights are a big thing here in the United States. A country currently run by White Males...and most adult White Males are still Republican.

You might want to think on that. Seriously. Choose your friends carefully.

 

[Reader]

[/B]

BBM: The biggest myth is that voter fraud is a problem.



http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/voter-id-laws-charts-maps

Thanks for the link, Nova! This shows this fear of voter fraud is a straw man argument put forth to keep certain groups from registering to vote or voting:

In Search Of Stolen Votes

While defending its precedent-setting photo ID law before the Supreme Court, Indiana was unable to cite a single instance of voter impersonation in its entire history.

A 2005 report by the American Center for Voting Rights claimed there were more than 100 cases of voter fraud involving 300,000 votes in 2004. A review of the charges turned up only 185 votes that were even potentially fraudulent.

In support of a voter ID law, Kansas Secretary of State (and the legal brains behind a slew of anti-immigration laws) Kris Kobach cited 221 incidents of voter fraud in the state between 1997 and 2010. Yet those cases produced just 7 convictions—none related to impersonating other voters.

Last December, Republican National Committee Chairman Reince Priebus declared that Wisconsin is "absolutely riddled with voter fraud." In fact, the state's voter fraud rate in 2004 was 0.0002 percent—just 7 votes.

In 2008, John McCain said fraudulent registrations collected by ACORN were "one of the greatest frauds in voter history in this country, maybe destroying the fabric of democracy." The Congressional Research Service found no proof that anyone improperly registered by ACORN tried to vote.

Federal convictions for election fraud, 2002-05
◾Voting while ineligible: 18
◾Voting multiple times: 5
◾Registration fraud: 3

 

[JustJudy]

People who are not here legally can vote? Seriously? I can't believe this was even an issue. The world's gone mad.

It is not an issue. Kimster, your critical thinking skills are obviously up, running and operating at optimal speed as evidenced by your remarking, "I can't believe this was even an issue."

Voter suppression and voter intimidation, on the other hand, are alive and well & can further disenfranchise those voting eligible members of our populace all ready at risk of not doing so, due to being uninformed or misinformed of the whos, hows, whens, and wheres of casting a ballot.

While my experiences in these matters revolves around adult students and first time voters, one needn't look far in one direction or another to find other demographics as well, with easily suppressable voices.

"I am powerful only when I empower others" ~ JJ



Voter Suppression - American Civil Liberties Union
http://www.aclu.org/voter-suppression-america

The Myth of Voter Fraud - New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/13/opinion/13tue1.html

Immigrant Voter Fraud Fears Didn't Materialize - National Public Radio
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=131089170

UFO Sightings are More Common Than Voter Fraud - Mother Jones
http://m.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/voter-id-laws-charts-maps

The Myth of Voter Fraud - USNews & World Report
http://mobile.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2012/04/24/the-myth-of-voter-fraud

 

[DEPUTYDAWG]

Your counterfeit SS card and DL may get you into a nightclub, but if you're registering to vote, it will be immediately cross-checked against the SS and Bureau of Motor Vehicles databases. It will be caught there, quickly. If its not a valid number, you don't get to register or cast a ballot unless you can provide further proof of your identity and citizenship.

People are not allowed to register and vote on the same day. BOE's require a period to check identity before allowing newly registered voters to cast a ballot. You can always ask for a provisional ballot, but if your bogus ID isn't in the official SS & BMV databases, your ballot is thrown out.

Again, if you're a doubter, I suggest you do your civic duty and sign up to work at a polling place next election. You'll get quite an education.

Thanks for your suggestion about what I need to do for civic duty, because I'm a doubter. I haven't been ugly here...I've said I don't know what the answer is, just because I think American citizens should protect their right to vote.

But one final comment on counterfeit SSN. You realize they're often legit SSN numbers and DL's, often times stolen and then bought by counterfeiters. No, I'm not stating an election has been overturned by rampant criminals going to vote. LOL.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

It looks as though this has become (or stayed) such a political issue, and I don't know why it has to be. Voter registration issues have been in the news, and it shows there are flaws, at least in that (registration drives). I would think all American citizens (R, D, I and others) would want to ensure the system is clean.

 

[DEPUTYDAWG]

[/B]

BBM: The biggest myth is that voter fraud is a problem.



http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/voter-id-laws-charts-maps

Okay, on a different level...some of the stats listed were bothersome in themselves.

I'm trying to do the opposite of many here. I'm trying to get past the political bias, or even topic, here.

Why such high issues of no correct photo ID with some of the minorities? That is more of an issue to me.

In the MJ article, it references a Caltech/MIT Voting Tech Project:

"Why voting age adults say they didn't vote in 2008"

1) Had wrong ID: All 14%
Blacks 25%
Asians 78%
Democrats 16%
Republicans 9%

2) Registration Problems: All 22%
Blacks 37%
Asians 78%
Democrats 27%
Republicans 28%

I guess my concern is why many of those adults don't have, or aren't doing the necessary steps to get proper ID.


Hopefully those who are interested enough in their civic duty of voting, will make efforts to get proper ID for any future election they'd be interested in voting. I find it hard to believe there are that many adults running around without photo ID in this day and age, since we need photo ID for so many other things in our daily lives.

Thanks.

 

[rob]

There used to be such a thing as states rights.
My state (SC) passed a law that you had to present a gov issued picture ID, along with voters registration, to vote. The democrats here screamed bloody murder, that it would keep poor and minorities from voting, as they didn't have ids. LOL, I work for the federal gov. People who recieve benefits always have an id, its how they get the benefits. Naturalized citizens hold there paperwork like it is gold. When they apply for a passport, they have to send the original, not a copy, not even notarized. It's hard for them to hand it over (I can understand that)
Anyway, if there is voter fraud, who is commiting it, why the ones crying the loudest, of course.
We have had an election since this went into effect, NO problem. Imagine that.
People will lie. People commit pergury. If you are in the right, you don't have problems following the rules. If you are wanting some votes from illegals, or multiple votes from citizens, or votes from grandma who died 10 yrs ago, then you have problems with rules.
This is my opinion only, and as a citizen, I feel I am entitled to it.

 

[Elley Mae]

There used to be such a thing as states rights.
My state (SC) passed a law that you had to present a gov issued picture ID, along with voters registration, to vote. The democrats here screamed bloody murder, that it would keep poor and minorities from voting, as they didn't have ids. LOL, I work for the federal gov. People who recieve benefits always have an id, its how they get the benefits. Naturalized citizens hold there paperwork like it is gold. When they apply for a passport, they have to send the original, not a copy, not even notarized. It's hard for them to hand it over (I can understand that)
Anyway, if there is voter fraud, who is commiting it, why the ones crying the loudest, of course.
We have had an election since this went into effect, NO problem. Imagine that.
People will lie. People commit pergury. If you are in the right, you don't have problems following the rules. If you are wanting some votes from illegals, or multiple votes from citizens, or votes from grandma who died 10 yrs ago, then you have problems with rules.
This is my opinion only, and as a citizen, I feel I am entitled to it.

With your kind permission I'll second this opinion.:seeya:

 

[Reader]

In 5-Year Effort, Scant Evidence of Voter Fraud

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/12/washington/12fraud.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

WASHINGTON, April 11 — Five years after the Bush administration began a crackdown on voter fraud, the Justice Department has turned up virtually no evidence of any organized effort to skew federal elections, according to court records and interviews.

Although Republican activists have repeatedly said fraud is so widespread that it has corrupted the political process and, possibly, cost the party election victories, about 120 people have been charged and 86 convicted as of last year.

Most of those charged have been Democrats, voting records show. Many of those charged by the Justice Department appear to have mistakenly filled out registration forms or misunderstood eligibility rules, a review of court records and interviews with prosecutors and defense lawyers show.

In Miami, an assistant United States attorney said many cases there involved what were apparently mistakes by immigrants, not fraud.

In Wisconsin, where prosecutors have lost almost twice as many cases as they won, charges were brought against voters who filled out more than one registration form and felons seemingly unaware that they were barred from voting.

One ex-convict was so unfamiliar with the rules that he provided his prison-issued identification card, stamped “Offender,” when he registered just before voting..........

Some of those cases have baffled federal judges.

“I find this whole prosecution mysterious,” Judge Diane P. Wood of the United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit, in Chicago, said at a hearing in Ms. Prude’s case. “I don’t know whether the Eastern District of Wisconsin goes after every felon who accidentally votes. It is not like she voted five times. She cast one vote.”

The Justice Department stand is backed by Republican Party and White House officials, including Karl Rove, the president’s chief political adviser. The White House has acknowledged that he relayed Republican complaints to President Bush and the Justice Department that some prosecutors were not attacking voter fraud vigorously. In speeches, Mr. Rove often mentions fraud accusations and warns of tainted elections.........More at link....

 

[Deleted member 96356]

There is no reason, HawksGirl. This is all part of a concerted effort by the Republican Party to discourage voting by those unlikely to support GOP candidates. That's all it is, plain and simple.

Today's GOP is not our parents' Republican Party. With few exceptions, the GOP is fundamentally anti-democracy.

Okay, but here's the thing... that Republican (I prefer the term neo-conservative because not all Republicans are alike, but okay) effort can be distinguished from the idea of voter ID cards or national ID cards. It's unfortunate that the debate has been reduced to thinking of it strictly in terms of the politicians who want to hold people back from the polls. I'll have nothing to do with different standards for different citizens when it comes to the right and privilege (and duty) to vote, fyi. BUT a standardized form of ID could streamline the process and possibly make it easier for the groups who currently have trouble with documentation, like a DL, while upholding the requirement of citizenship. I know some people get their backs up about the concept of a national ID because "omg Big Brother!" but these are often the same people with an SSN, passport, internet connection, etc. If you're worried about Big Brother, you really need to live off the grid... in which case you won't register to vote. (I'm using "you" in the general sense, not you Nova.)

It's an option worth exploring and considering (imo) exclusive of shenanigans that have targeted disadvantaged segments.

 

[Reader]

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/voter-fraud-exposed/

Ok, so what about the cost? Voter ID laws increase bureaucracy and they increase the time needed to vote. Worse, and more importantly, we know that a substantial number of poor and/or elderly persons do not have adequate IDs. This means that to stop an essentially non-existent problem we must increase the costs of the running the election and set up situations in which otherwise eligible voters might be denied the right to vote.

To add some numbers to this notion, there are more people without IDs than is likely assumed by most readers. To wit:

The 2005 Carter-Baker Commission estimated that 12% of voting- age Americans lack a driver’s license, and an analysis of 2003 Census and Federal Highway Administration data estimates that twenty-two million voting-age citizens lack a driver’s license. Some 3-4% of voting-age Americans carry a nondriver’s photo-identification card issued by a state motor vehicle agency in lieu of a driver’s license. Thus, according to the 2001 Carter-Ford Commission, an estimated 6-10% of voting-age Americans (approximately eleven million to twenty million potential voters) do not possess a driver’s license or a state-issued nondriver’s photo- identification card (Overton 658).

That’s a lot of voters who could be disenfranchised—and to stop less than a rounding error’s worth of likely voter fraud. This does not strike me as prudent, or efficacious, public policy.

http://www.politifact.com/texas/sta...bbott-claims-50-election-fraud-convictions-2/

When the U.S. Justice Department rejected the Texas voter ID law March 12, 2012, preventing it from taking effect, Abbott issued a press release saying: "Since 2002 ... election fraud investigations by the Texas Attorney General's Office have resulted in 50 convictions."........

Abbott’s statement refers to 50 "convictions," which he might better have termed "satisfactory results."

It looks to us like 60 percent of his cited "convictions" were not convictions.

[Half true]...

http://blogs.wsj.com/numbersguy/counting-voter-fraud-1165/

Efforts to measure the extent of voter fraud by compiling criminal cases have indicated that the problem isn’t particularly widespread. One study last month, conducted by a group of journalism students through a project called News21, found 2,068 cases of alleged voter fraud in the U.S. since 2000, including 10 cases of voter impersonation.

Groups that back voter-ID laws, many of which are conservative, dismissed the report as the work of a project funded by left-wing foundations. “This was done in a professional, objective manner” without influence from funders, responded Stephen K. Doig, a professor of journalism at Arizona State University, who oversaw the News21 reporters. “We went as far as we possibly could, putting in an incredible amount of effort.”

This included adding about 100 cases found from news-archive searches, as well as 268 cases in which law-enforcement agencies didn’t disclose the name of the accused person. “To avoid being accused of lowballing the number, we put in everything we found,” Doig said. “We scoured the earth to try to find actual cases of people doing this.”.........

Robert A. Pastor, former executive director of the Carter-Baker Commission on Federal Election Reform, a bipartisan group that in 2005 called for better data on voter fraud while advocating voter IDs, said both parties have fair points about the electoral system. “Republicans have a legitimate concern about the integrity of the ballot,” Pastor said. “Democrats have a legitimate concern about access. Good electoral policy is one that incorporates both, but we’re not seeing that happen today.”

 

[Betty P]

Thanks for your suggestion about what I need to do for civic duty, because I'm a doubter. I haven't been ugly here...I've said I don't know what the answer is, just because I think American citizens should protect their right to vote.

But one final comment on counterfeit SSN. You realize they're often legit SSN numbers and DL's, often times stolen and then bought by counterfeiters. No, I'm not stating an election has been overturned by rampant criminals going to vote. LOL.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

It looks as though this has become (or stayed) such a political issue, and I don't know why it has to be. Voter registration issues have been in the news, and it shows there are flaws, at least in that (registration drives). I would think all American citizens (R, D, I and others) would want to ensure the system is clean.

The Social Security Administration, Bureau of Motor Vehicles, offices of secretaries of state and Boards of Elections all maintain thorough, detailed computerized databases. All year long, these databases are checked and cross-checked by state SOS's and BOE's to ensure their voter registration lists are accurate and up to date. BOE's also keep databases current for absentee balloting and early voting in person. They know who has ordered a ballot, when it was delivered and whether or not it was returned.

We're looking at 2 separate processes - voter registration and actual casting of ballots.

Voter registration - It's conducted all year long. New applications and filings for change of address, etc. are processed continually. The BOE has adequate time to verify and cross-check the information provided, including fraudulent SS numbers. The Social Security Administration knows which ID numbers it has issued, as does the Bureau of Motor Vehicles. They also know which ID numbers have not been issued and which ones were issued to people who are now deceased. Those numbers are linked to names and addresses. If someone submits a fraudulent ID, it is cross checked against those agencies databases who will look at the ID#, as well as the name, DOB and last address of the person. It will either show up as a duplicate record or incorrect number. The person will then be notified their information is incorrect and will be given a chance to correct it. If they think its fraudulent, it will be reported for further investigation.

All of this is done long before Election Day.

Casting A Vote - While the BOE has been working all year to verify and update voter registration information, in the weeks before the election they begin preparing poll books. These poll books will contain information about every person registered to vote in each precinct. It will contain their name, address, party affiliation, DOB and will have a scanned image of the signature they used when they signed their voter registration card. When voters come to the polls they have to provide a photo ID, which the worker checks. They're also required to sign the poll book so the worker can check to see if their signature matches. Each ballot has a number and its recorded next to the signature of the voter. Poll books also contain notations that show which voters have received absentee ballots and have other issues that should not allow them to cast a vote that day.

A similar process is used for voting by mail - a person has to request an absentee ballot. They have to provide their SSN or StateID or DL number. When they mail in the request, it is checked against the voter registration database to see if they are registered. If not, or if their registration info doesn't match up with government databases, they don't get a ballot. Like voting in person, each ballot has an ID number, which is recorded with the voters name. When the voter receives their ballot, they fill it out and put it into a security envelope, which has a bar code ID which matches their ballot application and the number of the ballot they were issued. The security envelope containing the ballot is placed inside the mailing envelope, which is then sent to the BOE.

Vote by mail is usually completed several days before Election Day so the BOE has time to validate accuracy of ballots and match them to the database. In many areas, you can go online and track your absentee ballot at the BoE.

If any one thing doesn't match or is problematic with a voter's registration, identification, address or ballot they are not allowed to vote. Instead they are allowed to cast a provisional ballot, a process that requires more ID and must be witnessed by a worker from both political parties. Provisional ballots are not counted until they've been fully investigated and verified accurate by BOE officers - one Democrat, one Republican.

There are many, many checks and balances in the system that will catch someone trying to vote fraudulently. There is ample time between voter registration and Election Day to catch those discrepancies. It's what the BOE does all year long, when it's not Election Day. BOE workers are required to take an oath and are subject to prosecution for any errors they make. At every level of the process - in the polling place and at the BOE - employees who are registered with each political party (one Democrat, one Republican) work in tandem and validate each other's work.

Unless someone is able to gain access to the Social Security Administration or the Bureau of Motor Vehicles' secure databases and illegally dump bogus numbers into them, it's impossible for someone to register and vote with a fraudulent ID.

Note: even at the end of Election Day, the ballots and the memory stick for the ballot scanner in each precinct have to be counted and delivered to a central location (the police station in our town) in a car containing both a Democrat and a Republican, each of whom have to show their ID when turning over the ballots and supplies. These are received by a team of one each - a Democrat and a Republican, who run through a checklist and verify everything is there and is sealed. They are monitored by an armed security guards and the ballots and supplies are placed in an armored truck which is then driven to the BOE for more armed security guards, cameras and bipartisan teams of observers.

Workers have to attend a minimum of 1 5 hour training class per year, sometimes 2 or 3. They work from 5 am til about 9 or 10 pm and are paid about $125 in our state.

Voting in this country is very secure, we spend a lot of money to check and double check every detail and if they don't match, you don't cast a ballot. It would take infiltration of Social Security and Bureau of Motor Vehicle databases to carry it off.

 

[CHERIE.T]

There is no reason, HawksGirl. This is all part of a concerted effort by the Republican Party to discourage voting by those unlikely to support GOP candidates. That's all it is, plain and simple.

Today's GOP is not our parents' Republican Party. With few exceptions, the GOP is fundamentally anti-democracy.

As a staunch supporter of the Republican Party I'm insulted by your post. I'm ready for non legal citizens and dead uncles to be exempt from voting. To say the GOP is anti-democracy is not only insulting but ignorant. :banghead: :stormingmad: