State v Bradley Cooper 03/31/11

[lunarmodule]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and borrow from some of the scuttle I've heard. Gracielee, you bring up an awesome point here. Why was THIS Saturday different?

She's been on vacation. I remember getting a really good feeling about even the worst times with my ex-wife on vacation. (It was a very volatile balance between us after about four years of marriage) I remember thinking I could handle the emotional roller coaster and make it work for the kids. I remember coming up with lots of alternate ways to deal with things when I was away from her, or with her on vacation. I felt like a kid again.

What if Nancy did that? She felt good. She had a plan. When she came home from Vacation, she had an alternative to having to put up with Brad's bullpucky?

What if the Pearson stuff is true? And Nancy didn't go jogging that morning, but Brad (the idiot/jackass/manipulator) thought she did? What if she walked to the end of the block and met a guy to say: Hey, I'm in a helluva spot. I can't deal with my husband. I need to get some support from you on this one. (Maybe it was the rumored Baby-daddy. Maybe it was just someone she had been talking to) What if THIS is the person who for whatever reason, snapped on her?

Women, in divorce situations like this...do they ever chat each other up about potential new love interests or old flames renewed? Maybe that's the odd thing for me that they all know. Maybe they all knew that Mike Hiller was setting up Tennis that morning with Brad to make sure he was busy and JA and NC set up the paint session to "cover for this". Didn't JA state she had to take the kids to the pool mid-morning? I think it was 10:30 or something.

Maybe they all expected her to report in on that. And that's what makes everything so odd. Because they don't know if that meeting went down or not. They don't know if she got caught sneaking out to meet a man and Brad snapped on her or if the guy that was labeled as potentially the father of one of the children snapped at the idea of child support or being dragged into it all.

I am stealing from several other poster's more well-laid ideas here.

But here's my major problem with all of this. You guys are going to tell me that there were THIS many warning signs ahead of this and NOT A SOUL dared to step in and keep it from happening? I don't buy it. Not for a second.

You guys keep saying "These are great friends" "I can't believe they are tearing down such wonderful friends".

I don't think they are good friends. I think they suck. I think that they were just petty enough to let it play out and keep details on it, but no one had the stones to do a thing about it. The only ones I hold completely faultless are the family folks in Canada. There was NOTHING they could do. (If Brad killed her)

But, these snide little folks who are getting on the stand (all of them) and shaking and pointing their fingers and crying and saying they knew he did it and they saw it leading up to it and it's GOT to be him are the saddest, poorest, creepiest excuses for witnesses that I have seen in a very long time.

Why? Because they did NOTHING and then casually (sometimes heartbreakingly) sit their in hindsight and act as thought they knew all along.

I don't trust any of them but Nancy's mom. The rest are wallowing in guilt or making it up as they go.

I just can't believe you would dismiss the consistency of what people are saying and at the same time make up "what ifs" about some guy she supposedly had a relationship/baby with? WTH? One of the interesting things to me is that her friendships were broad...many friends didn't really know other groups of friends..that's normal to me. But the Brad fans like to lump them into the Lochmere "gang".

 

[johnfear]

What do you feel in your heart, JF? I'm not talking about evidence, I'm curious about your intuition.

I think the faking of the phone call didn't happen. I think she was alive and probably had plans that morning.

I think he lay awake in the girl's room until she came in, having read her emails and stalked around the house, but that he knew she'd check on the kids when she came in so he would plant himself between them.

I think they called each other names when she got home at midnight and felt to good to deal with him. I think she kissed her girls goodnight and locked herself in her room, ruminating over the idea that she couldn't go in and sleep with her girls because HE was in there with them. I think she fell asleep wondering what the hell she was going to do.

I think he woke up first around 5 in the morning and started in on her for not paying attention to him the night before when he asked inappropriate questions about whatever is going on in those emails.

I think he laid into her until she sent him for milk. I think it was already warm and annoying outside, probably cold inside. I think he hit her for the first time that morning. The first REAL time. Somewhere in their hallway. Damaging a variety of items on the way.

I think he grabbed her moments before the first Harris Teeter trip. I think she about knocked the hell out of him. Maybe caught up here was the scratch marks.

I think he went to the store, plotting what he could do to keep her under control and she called him. And I think she said: Don't come back. I've called the police (though she hadn't) and I'm having you arrested.

He drove BACK to the house and in that 3-6 minutes he was there, she told him, begged him, asked him to get away from her. She threatened to really call the cops. He knew she wouldn't. He threatened with the money things that folks threaten with when they want to control. He cried. Made an *advertiser censored* of himself. Promised to change. He, sometime in that 3 minutes, slid his hands around her throat and tried to manipulate her. I don't know where, but probably away from the kids. The kitchen. The hall. Whatever. He snapped.

He choked and killed her. Then he put her in the trunk and drove BACK to Harris Teeter. He didn't dump her then. He dumped her a little later in the morning. He put the television up and turned it on so the kids would stay in their room and he drove off with NC in the trunk. This is why she was so close to the road. He backed her up and slung/carried/rolled/dropped her.

I dunno. I just think that most of my frustration with this case is that the prosecution and the investigators missed something. I don't know what...but their case is weak. Their evidence is non-existent and the mistakes made in this case means he will likely walk. But....well, you asked what i thought had happened in my heart. I've posted both of the things I can picture tonite. Either way, I don't think that's what the State will end up proving.

 

[borndem]

I don't consider that to be a lie. I think she just "knew" like so many here thought they "knew" that all diamond stud earrings are screw backs. Mine are and I assumed all were as well. If you think about it, how would she know that those earrings were screw backs when NC never took them off?

I have never seen a pair of diamond studs that were not screwbacks -- even with a very small setting. It's just the mark of a quality brand of jewelry.

 

[SleuthyGal]

The one thing that concerns me about most of the friends testimonies is that they are too similar. At first I thought this lady seemed different and had different things to say but then I started hearing some of the same phrases I believe. I think it was her. It was like programmed catch phrases that came from some of them. It just seemed that way to me. P

Have you considered some statements are similar because the victim, Nancy, told each of these friends what was going on with her? Think Nancy might use similar language? Think Nancy might be consistent in how she communicated to her friends? Nancy is sharing her words and thoughts and fears with all of us, through her friends, who were direct witnesses to what Nancy was thinking, and saying. Some of these statements are Nancy's words. Nancy would like to tell you herself, but ummm....she's dead, and this is the best she can do to get her story to the court.

 

[jmflu]

For me there are two questions, and they are quite different. First, who killed Nancy? Second, is the prosecution proving its case against Brad Cooper?

Addressing the second, as that's what's going on now, and if they succeed they therefore settle the first question, here's my rundown to date:

In favor of the prosecution:

Motive: He certainly had one: the removal of a negative relationship and looming financial burden.

Opportunity: He had the time between her return from the party til her friend became suspicious to murder her and dispose of her body.

Inclination: He was noted at least by several of Nancy

 

[gracielee]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and borrow from some of the scuttle I've heard. Gracielee, you bring up an awesome point here. Why was THIS Saturday different?

She's been on vacation. I remember getting a really good feeling about even the worst times with my ex-wife on vacation. (It was a very volatile balance between us after about four years of marriage) I remember thinking I could handle the emotional roller coaster and make it work for the kids. I remember coming up with lots of alternate ways to deal with things when I was away from her, or with her on vacation. I felt like a kid again.

What if Nancy did that? She felt good. She had a plan. When she came home from Vacation, she had an alternative to having to put up with Brad's bullpucky?

What if the Pearson stuff is true? And Nancy didn't go jogging that morning, but Brad (the idiot/jackass/manipulator) thought she did? What if she walked to the end of the block and met a guy to say: Hey, I'm in a helluva spot. I can't deal with my husband. I need to get some support from you on this one. (Maybe it was the rumored Baby-daddy. Maybe it was just someone she had been talking to) What if THIS is the person who for whatever reason, snapped on her?

Women, in divorce situations like this...do they ever chat each other up about potential new love interests or old flames renewed? Maybe that's the odd thing for me that they all know. Maybe they all knew that Mike Hiller was setting up Tennis that morning with Brad to make sure he was busy and JA and NC set up the paint session to "cover for this". Didn't JA state she had to take the kids to the pool mid-morning? I think it was 10:30 or something.

Maybe they all expected her to report in on that. And that's what makes everything so odd. Because they don't know if that meeting went down or not. They don't know if she got caught sneaking out to meet a man and Brad snapped on her or if the guy that was labeled as potentially the father of one of the children snapped at the idea of child support or being dragged into it all.

I am stealing from several other poster's more well-laid ideas here.

But here's my major problem with all of this. You guys are going to tell me that there were THIS many warning signs ahead of this and NOT A SOUL dared to step in and keep it from happening? I don't buy it. Not for a second.

You guys keep saying "These are great friends" "I can't believe they are tearing down such wonderful friends".

I don't think they are good friends. I think they suck. I think that they were just petty enough to let it play out and keep details on it, but no one had the stones to do a thing about it. The only ones I hold completely faultless are the family folks in Canada. There was NOTHING they could do. (If Brad killed her)

But, these snide little folks who are getting on the stand (all of them) and shaking and pointing their fingers and crying and saying they knew he did it and they saw it leading up to it and it's GOT to be him are the saddest, poorest, creepiest excuses for witnesses that I have seen in a very long time.

Why? Because they did NOTHING and then casually (sometimes heartbreakingly) sit their in hindsight and act as thought they knew all along.

I don't trust any of them but Nancy's mom. The rest are wallowing in guilt or making it up as they go.

What exactly would you expect them to have done? There have been a couple of times in my life where I was faced with something completely out of my control. Like watching a freight train careening down the tracks and nothing one can do. So you believe all these people conspired to frame Brad Cooper? I'm speechless.

 

[gritguy]

Johnfear,

I've wondered a scenario like that too. A scenario where the call was not spoofed and she could have had coffee. Given Brad claims a child was up at 4 or so, I figure that is either true or cover for activity at the house around that time that he worried people might have noticed (lights, noise whatever). So, the murder would be then or later.

The idea of murder when she arrived home runs into the phone call and caffeine obstacles.

 

[borndem]

When I see any of the witnesses who knew & loved Nancy start to get emotional and cry (or any of the Rentz family), it gets me going too and out comes the Kleenex. I feel so terrible for all of them and wish I could take away some of that pain. And there's nothing anyone can do. I imagine you can never get over something like this, you just have to learn to live with a piece of your heart missing and hope, over time, some of the sharpness of that pain eases a bit.

And every time you look at those little girls, especially the older one, who looks so like her Mom, her Aunt Krista, and her G-Mom, your heart just breaks even more. But Nancy does live in them, and her spirit is strong, and that helps, I'm sure.

 

[SleuthyGal]

{snipped to save space}

There is evidence that Nancy sometimes jogged from her house. There is evidence that Nancy was jogging the day she was murdered. There is evidence that Nancy was jogging and possibly caught the attention of a van with two men in it. There is evidence that someone called from the Cooper house early morning before the run, while Brad was nearing HT for the errand, and Brad testifies it was Nancy.

Please list who testified to this 'evidence?' Are you confusing defense's OPENING STATEMENTS (which are not evidence) with ummm...the fact no one has testified to any of these things?

You realize that just because the defense claims something, doesn't mean it's true?

NONE of these things you listed for the defense have been testified to...there is no evidence of ANY of it, especially any evidence of Nancy leaving her house to go running.

What you have listed are the defense's rumors and made-up stories. None of it is evidence.

 

[borndem]

I'm pretty sure they were right around 1ct total. And oh so missed.

How big were NC's earrings?

:wagon:Glad to have you join us!!!

 

[johnfear]

What exactly would you expect them to have done? There have been a couple of times in my life where I was faced with something completely out of my control. Like watching a freight train careening down the tracks and nothing one can do. So you believe all these people conspired to frame Brad Cooper? I'm speechless.

Let me back up a minute here. (You might want to read my other side to this as well)

A lot of you guys are about laying out your opinions on this case and I completely see where you are coming from. Which...is fine and I even see where you might not see where I am coming from.

One of the things I love about this forum, as opposed to other forums I've encountered is that we can debate and hate each other for a minute and be friendly tomorrow. So...in the interest of continuing that...I probably need to change my signature so that it reads something to the effect of: "I'd rather try and figure out what my enemy is going to do next when going to war than plan my breakfast."

This case (from a legal perspective) is going poorly. In the climate we are in, it was tried in the media a long time ago. In fact, I remember fighting along side a lot of the posters here in various other places on the net because I was so convinced that the evidence would overwhelm me and I would be blown away with the swiftness that Chief Bazemore promised me in closing this "domestic violence case of the worst kind".

And I sat and watched as the police faded from our neighborhood over here, thinking that they had definitely found yet another killer and removed him from our midst.

Now....if there is a smoking gun in this case, I will eat my words (way more happily than you'd think) because Justice (with a big old J) has been served and a jury of this man's peers has agreed to that. I think Kurtz and Trenkle are shoring up nearly every single appeals argument as they go so as to appropriately outline it and make a very short appeals process.

But, if they don't have anything and just by the off chance they were wrong, I have two really big problems with that. 1) NC and her loved ones deserve justice and it will be nearly impossible for her to get that and 2) that could potentially mean a killer were wandering free to do such again. (Which I doubt)

Either way, I try and play within the guidelines, but I refuse to quit posting my thoughts on where the defense might be coming from because that's when they win. And while the lawyers have to do that job, the criminals can't think for a minute they had to do the crime.

 

[gritguy]

Please list who testified to this 'evidence?' Are you confusing defense's OPENING STATEMENTS (which are not evidence) with ummm...the fact no one has testified to any of these things?

You realize that just because the defense claims something, doesn't mean it's true?

NONE of these things you listed for the defense have been testified to...there is no evidence of ANY of it, especially any evidence of Nancy leaving her house to go running.

What you have listed are the defense's rumors and made-up stories. None of it is evidence.

You can note before I list that that I said not all of this evidence is in play or would be and in fact there may be other evidence. I also said it was possible I had misstated some things.

There is evidence she left to go running: there are eyewitness statements. That may not be introduced yet but it does exist. You may discount it - obviously I do to a large degree given I still think he did it.

I do know the opening statements are not evidence.

There is in fact a counter narrative the defense has that has evidence behind it which I assume they will introduce. I did not allege any wild theories. The prosecution has to overcome this. Assuming Brad is guilty, then I hope they do.

I tried plenty of cases myself before deciding to leave the courtroom for other endeavors.

 

[johnfear]

What exactly would you expect them to have done? There have been a couple of times in my life where I was faced with something completely out of my control. Like watching a freight train careening down the tracks and nothing one can do. So you believe all these people conspired to frame Brad Cooper? I'm speechless.

Step up. Call the cops BEFORE someone gets killed. Call anyone. You think I am accusing them of framing him? No. I am accusing them of exactly what I said...doing nothing. They didn't step up for her, but I'm to assume they watched it happen, in 2008? With all the resources available in this area?

I don't think anyone framed him. I think they assumed he did it and I was positing a theory that maybe it wasn't him. I wasn't there. I don't know. I am purely guessing.

Which at this point is exactly what the prosecution is doing.

 

[SleuthyGal]

You can note before I list that that I said not all of this evidence is in play or would be and in fact there may be other evidence. I also said it was possible I had misstated some things.

There is evidence she left to go running: there are eyewitness statements. That may not be introduced yet but it does exist. You may discount it - obviously I do to a large degree given I still think he did it.

I do know the opening statements are not evidence.

There is in fact a counter narrative the defense has that has evidence behind it which I assume they will introduce. I did not allege any wild theories. The prosecution has to overcome this. Assuming Brad is guilty, then I hope they do.

I tried plenty of cases myself before deciding to leave the courtroom for other endeavors.

Grit,

There are people who believed they saw Nancy running that morning, but no one placed her either with a running partner (who Brad said she was likely with) or anywhere near where her body was discovered. If Nancy was seen by so many people, then how exactly was someone able to secretly abduct her and get her away with all these witnesses? Obviously she was in plain view of all these people, right? Nancy was 5'10" and a strong, fast runner. Think she wouldn't have put up a fight? She would have. Where are her shoes? Her shorts? Her underwear? Her socks? Her BB cap? Her hairband?

Yes, the prosecution certainly has all the burden, and it might be a tall burden at that. I'm not ready to throw the towel in yet until they rest their portion of the case. There's more evidence to be revealed and clearly it's not going to happen on *my* timeline, so I have no choice but to wait.

I'm glad you'll be able to provide some of your experiences/perspective, having tried court cases. I got my J.D. from Google University and CourtTV--an impressive combination, no? :biggrin: :wink: :waitasec:

 

[borndem]

I think he get's a pass on lying. After listening to the desposition tapes all last week-end, one would think Brad would need a crutch to hold up his nose by now. :great:

:liar:

 

[gritguy]

I've been up in NYC the past few days but checking in mostly here to see how this case is going. I did read somewhere (can't remember if here) some disappointment about the sequence of witnesses the past day or so for the prosecution.

One reason to take things out of the narrative flow is if the witness needs to shore up something or respond dynamically to a point raised by the defense.

I haven't seen much of the trial, but based on what I've read, I'm thinking they have another card or two in their hand on circumstantial evidence related to these telephone calls and of course the awaited computer evidence the defense seems concerned about.

 

[borndem]

Yes that's right, Jmflu. Doncha know that EVERYONE in the case is lying except Brad? EVERY.SINGLE.WITNESS. Any mistaken assumption? Lie. Any fact forgotten? Lie. Every conversation? Lie. The whole police investigation? Lies. Incompetent lies at that! Det McDreamy? Cute. But yep, still a liar. All the evidence? Lies. The judge? corrupt. The court reporter? Yep, must be a liar.

Only Brad can be believed because Brad, of course, always tells the truth. Even when his own statements contradict one another from affidavit to deposition, Brad is merely confused. Or he just forgot. But no, not lying. Brad never lies. Ever. Brad farts rainbows and brings unicorns to all the children everywhere. And lollipops too.

Allllll these people are just out to 'get him.' It's one big conspiracy!

BRADGATE

 

[Lori59]

Step up. Call the cops BEFORE someone gets killed. Call anyone. You think I am accusing them of framing him? No. I am accusing them of exactly what I said...doing nothing. They didn't step up for her, but I'm to assume they watched it happen, in 2008? With all the resources available in this area?

I don't think anyone framed him. I think they assumed he did it and I was positing a theory that maybe it wasn't him. I wasn't there. I don't know. I am purely guessing.

Which at this point is exactly what the prosecution is doing.

Her friends did step up. They pointed out his behavior to her many times...she didn't fear him in a physical way. She gave him more credit than he deserved. You can not call the police because a husband is a mean, controlling, absent, adulterous. It is so unfair to blame her friends. They WERE there for her and offered her money and to stay at their homes.

 

[gritguy]

Grit,

There are people who believed they saw Nancy running that morning, but no one placed her either with a running partner (who Brad said she was likely with) or anywhere near where her body was discovered. If Nancy was seen by so many people, then how exactly was someone able to secretly abduct her and get her away with all these witnesses? Obviously she was in plain view of all these people, right? Nancy was 5'10" and a strong, fast runner. Think she wouldn't have put up a fight? She would have. Where are her shoes? Her shorts? Her underwear? Her socks? Her BB cap? Her hairband?

Yes, the prosecution certainly has all the burden, and it might be a tall burden at that. I'm not ready to throw the towel in yet until they rest their portion of the case. There's more evidence to be revealed and clearly it's not going to happen on *my* timeline, so I have no choice but to wait.

Well, I happen to still think he did it too. So, I'm hoping they've got the evidence to roll out too.

Your points are great ones. It's a lot of why I don't buy the counter narrative. They seriously abduct her in a van, strip her like that and then dump her so close? That seems unlikely.

I don't know the credibility of the eyewitnesses either. The fact is that Lochmere is very popular for exercise as you probably know and as you point out even early in the morning there's a reasonable amount of foot traffic (and bike!). For years I ran and biked there and all the associated roads. When the case came down, I didn't recognize Nancy. I wasn't in the neighborhood when she went missing but I certainly was there that time of day many, many times.

And you see women running together, alone, with or without dogs, etc., etc.

Abduction is always possible, but it seems unlikely to me for some of the very reasons you point out.

I'm not throwing in the towel either. The case isn't over until it is over and I have no feel for how the jury sees any of this either of course.

 

[jmflu]

Step up. Call the cops BEFORE someone gets killed. Call anyone. You think I am accusing them of framing him? No. I am accusing them of exactly what I said...doing nothing. They didn't step up for her, but I'm to assume they watched it happen, in 2008? With all the resources available in this area?

I don't think anyone framed him. I think they assumed he did it and I was positing a theory that maybe it wasn't him. I wasn't there. I don't know. I am purely guessing.

Which at this point is exactly what the prosecution is doing.

Keep in mind this. You've got a man who hasn't acted violently towards Nancy before. That gave Nancy confidence that he would not hurt her in the future... much less, kill her. This is why she told her dad she wasn't in fear of him. If she had any idea...if her friends had any idea..she would have gotten the hell out to safety. But she didn't know, and all her friends could do was listen to her...support her... and hope for the best... Does anyone ever even fathom that they could actually be a murder victim, especially when there has been no prior physical violence to escalate things to that level of consideration? ?