Steve Thomas Update 2009

[Maikai]

Hello Maikai - long time no see. We are going to be in the minority here and because of the way the minority is sometimes treated, I haven't been to this forum in years - even though it was the reason I came to WS years ago.

Hi Ziggy.....hard to believe how much time has gone by, and this forum is still going. Don't let the naysayers get to you. All in all, this forum is pretty civil. I think the right tip is in the case files, buried away.......and it will hinge on a DNA match.

 

[Maikai]

I'm just wondering wasn't there someone higher that could had went over the DA head, and if so why didn't they.Cause I always thought the F.B.I. could go over the D.A

The governor put pressure on, for the wasteful Grand Jury. A lot of time and money spent for nothing. They didn't have the evidence for an indictment. The Grand Jury was only convened to shut up the media.

Most law enforcement agencies are careful not to step on each others toes. The FBI didn't have jurisdiction.

 

[Maikai]

That's something we all could enjoy.

If ST had never come forward to admit he was the guy lurking in the dark with the reporter, it is very easy to tie him to the article. There are direct quotes in the article that are verbatim, phrases ST used in his media appearances....and you don't need Foster's computer to match them. Revisiting the article would be enjoyable....I'll get to it soon.

 

[Maikai]

I want to know who put ST on the case.And why? You know Lou Smit stated that he couldn't remove PR for being the RN author. But why do you think someome put ST on this investigation with no homcide experience cause this would and could help the DA justify his actions by saying well ST doesn't have the right experience for this kind of case there was alot a fall guys in this case as I see it and remember ST didn't believe the parents done it at first but then aagin the parents never done nothing to prove they didn't but alot of this is my opionions on this case.

I believe Ellers put ST on the case. Ellers and ST were buddies. Ellers has been described as as a "cops cop." ST admired Ellers--he liked his style. IMO, ST was picked because he would do Eller's bidding and not go against the grain.

 

[JMO8778]

Who says he didn't know,Maikai?? You're the only one implying that.Thomas isn't stupid.He followed the evidence,and it led to the parents.

 

[Roy23]

There will always be the ability to find distinguishable characterisitcs of each case to make your points. Afterall, that's what defense attorneys do. Each case in it's own right is also unique.

People with the business associates and lives they led such as the R's are different from say, Samantha Runion's mom, and yes, even Mark Klaas (another guy I respect but don't worship or agree with everything he says) so depending on the situation, lawyering up may be more common for them because of the distinguishable characteristics of this case, their professional relationships, and perhaps advice from others. Clearly they could feel the heat. They did what you are supposed to do if you feel threatened by the police and there are many cases where the cops WERE WRONG in their initial investigation and assumptions and innocent people have been railroaded.

That happens too you know. Witch hunts a plenty have put innocent people behind bars for years. I've seen the entire judicial system of a town be corrupted by one prosecutor with a creepy mind.

I just won't be a witch hunter. I see evidence on both sides. I can see some damning evidence and some exculpatory.

There is no way to say for sure by anyone except the killer.

Reasonable minds can disagree. I just can't stomach some of the vengence people want when they could very well be wrong.

Great post.

 

[Roy23]

Hi Ziggy.....hard to believe how much time has gone by, and this forum is still going. Don't let the naysayers get to you. All in all, this forum is pretty civil. I think the right tip is in the case files, buried away.......and it will hinge on a DNA match.

I actually agree with you. I cannot wait for ST and some others reactions when that day comes.

 

[Maikai]

Who says he didn't know,Maikai?? You're the only one implying that.Thomas isn't stupid.He followed the evidence,and it led to the parents.

Thomas ignored evidence that didn't fit with his theory. The case the BPD first presented to the DA was a joke...even a layperson could see that. No prosecutor in his/her right mind would have tried to go to trial on the flimsy evidence.

When it became evident that the "abrasions" were stun gun marks, the BPD quit pursuing trying to get to the truth on that.

Thomas repeatedly said that PR's handwriting was the closest to a match, "of the people that were in the home at the time." Very clever wording. There were others that were a lot closer---Patsy scored a 4.5 out of 5, with 5 being no match.

Giving any credence to Foster shows poor judgment. His prior claim to fame was based on having known writing samples by the author...and was just a matter of plugging into his computer to pick out similar phrases. Most of us know Foster's actions on this case, which are mindboggling--even moreso, that the BPD thought this guy was credible.

Thomas ignored lack of motive, history of the parents, the strength required to deliver the head blow, the complexity of the garrotte, the lack of knowledge by the parents of movie lines, and the foreign and unexplained DNA.

When I say Thomas, it wasn't only him---I think most of the BPD were only too happy for him to be the front man, and the leaker. This was all about egos, and the fact the BPD were made to look like keystone cops in the media soon after the murder, and the Ramseys wouldn't cozy up to the BPD and put on a good front to the public.

 

[Maikai]

I actually agree with you. I cannot wait for ST and some others reactions when that day comes.

It won't matter---ST and others will still blame the parents actions for the reason they went after the Ramseys.

 

[madeleine]

Thomas ignored evidence that didn't fit with his theory. The case the BPD first presented to the DA was a joke...even a layperson could see that. No prosecutor in his/her right mind would have tried to go to trial on the flimsy evidence.

When it became evident that the "abrasions" were stun gun marks, the BPD quit pursuing trying to get to the truth on that.
Thomas repeatedly said that PR's handwriting was the closest to a match, "of the people that were in the home at the time." Very clever wording. There were others that were a lot closer---Patsy scored a 4.5 out of 5, with 5 being no match.

Giving any credence to Foster shows poor judgment. His prior claim to fame was based on having known writing samples by the author...and was just a matter of plugging into his computer to pick out similar phrases. Most of us know Foster's actions on this case, which are mindboggling--even moreso, that the BPD thought this guy was credible.

Thomas ignored lack of motive, history of the parents, the strength required to deliver the head blow, the complexity of the garrotte, the lack of knowledge by the parents of movie lines, and the foreign and unexplained DNA.

When I say Thomas, it wasn't only him---I think most of the BPD were only too happy for him to be the front man, and the leaker. This was all about egos, and the fact the BPD were made to look like keystone cops in the media soon after the murder, and the Ramseys wouldn't cozy up to the BPD and put on a good front to the public.

Bolded by me.When did THAT happen?
Not evident to me.

 

[RiverRat]

IF (Big if) Steve had NOT noticed that The Ramseys were blatently dodging Law Enforcement....then the Sour for ST comments might not seem as silly as there stand now, because those Ramsey Actions screamed louder than any words that they were refusing to tell the investigators of their daughter's murder!

He's very far from stupid.....and it's not his fault that John and Patsy did everything possible to make themselves suspects!

 

[madeleine]

IF (Big if) Steve had NOT noticed that The Ramseys were blatently dodging Law Enforcement....then the Sour for ST comments might not seem as silly as there stand now, because those Ramsey Actions screamed louder than any words that they were refusing to tell the investigators of their daughter's murder!

He's very far from stupid.....and it's not his fault that John and Patsy did everything possible to make themselves suspects!

Reminds me of the Ramsey's LKL interview.bla bla ST is a young unexperienced detective,their soft voices,so understanding

excuse me,that was 100% acting.fgs that was the man causing them so much pain for suspecting them and not searching for the real killer ,right?!

i will never ever understand John Ramsey.his attitude.so what if ST is calling us suspects,we understand,he's young and unexperienced.so what if Karr is a paedo?he has the right to live,poor Karr.

GMAB!!!

 

[Sophie]

He may have done a decent job as a narc and the organized crime task force, but in most cases they targeted the suspect and then set out to find evidence to convict them. His previous experience may have contributed to his short comings in the Ramsey case.

I know what you mean, but presumably even narcotics officers need a reason to suspect someone before they start looking for evidence. It can't just be as simple as seeing long hair, a goatee and tattoos and saying 'Bingo!'

 

[Sophie]

IF (Big if) Steve had NOT noticed that The Ramseys were blatently dodging Law Enforcement....then the Sour for ST comments might not seem as silly as there stand now, because those Ramsey Actions screamed louder than any words that they were refusing to tell the investigators of their daughter's murder!

He's very far from stupid.....and it's not his fault that John and Patsy did everything possible to make themselves suspects!

Couldn't agree more. This is actually something that knocks me bandy about this case. Even if (which I doubt), the Ramseys are innocent, WTH did they think could shed a light on JB's world and possibly uncover a killer if not her parents? If they were innocent, a discussion with police about the last few months of her life could have raised (eg) memories of a day out in, say Aspen, in October when some creepy-looking bloke really freaked them and ultimately led to an arrest. The McCann situation is exactly the same to me (although I know lots of people are more forgiving towards the McCanns).

 

[Sophie]

Thanks Sophie....that was a good article, and it outlines the two shooting incidences. Both could be justified, but they also could have been ended by other methods. Also, interesting discussion on ST's history in law enforcement. He worked the Hill area for 3 years---he should have known how it was changing for the worse, with the Ramsey home right in the middle of it. Not too far away was a hangout for transcients...and not the peace-loving hippies of the past. There were fights everyday...drug activity....violent assaults.

In fairness, Maikai, I hadn't thought about ST having reason to be especially sensitive to the transient nature of a university town. And of course, crims like campuses (look at Ted Bundy). However, the fact that ST doesn't really discuss the university issue in his book doesn't mean that it wasn't investigated since a) he was only one of a team of investigators and he essentially only covers his own findings in the book, b) discussing it might have compromised detective partners and the work they did and c) any one of the anonymous hundreds of people interviewed could have had university connections which weren't specifically mentioned in his or anyone else's book. You'd also have to assume that the legendary investigative skills of Michael Tracey of CU would have uncovered any university connection

 

[madeleine]

Couldn't agree more. This is actually something that knocks me bandy about this case. Even if (which I doubt), the Ramseys are innocent, WTH did they think could shed a light on JB's world and possibly uncover a killer if not her parents? If they were innocent, a discussion with police about the last few months of her life could have raised (eg) memories of a day out in, say Aspen, in October when some creepy-looking bloke really freaked them and ultimately led to an arrest. The McCann situation is exactly the same to me (although I know lots of people are more forgiving towards the McCanns).

Exactly.You know,their attitude is just beyond my understanding.If they're guilty I could understand,but if they're innocent..........I just don't get them!Not the lawyering up,I have absolutely no problem with that...but the rest of it.....the lies,John's smirk when talking about JB saying he didn't murder her,the lack of anger towards the killer(alledged killer),oh so many other things.....

I watched their last interview together with that hawaiian pastor.....Patsy smiling and being so happy about JB being a beauty queen!hello!!!!!well maybe that's the reason she was targeted and killed!!!!

sometimes i think JB was,sadly,just an accessory.
and maybe that's why she didn't react like most of us would have?(guilty or not)

 

[ziggy]

It is hard for me to believe that the most significant evidence one would use to justify someone becoming a #1 murder suspect would be their actions after the fact.

I understand actions and consciousness of guilt etc. I think the actions DO play an imortant role - just not as important as some would say here. And, I truely believe if an officer uses that as major evidence, it is somewhat irresponsible especially if the actions are not analyzed to see that the situations, backgrounds, socioeconomic status of those whose actions are being questioned or compared to others is not taken into consideration.

Actions alone cannot convict and all factors must be taken into consideration before it is fair to compare the actions of one set of parents to another.

Sometimes there are reasonable explanations for the actions and sometimes there are not. I feel that most who find fault with the R's actions seem to compare them either to themselves or one other person with whom these people may have little in common in their life experience or in the immediate circumstance.

I have seen police corruption. I wouldn't let a corrupt department walk my dog let alone administer a poly. I can understand paranoia - from an innocent person's POV.

I find it very troublesome that a fair comparison of the actions is not taken into consideration. I agree, if I make a chart and say "these actions say guilty" on one side there are guilty actions yet on the other side I say "these actions can be explained by..." I see a balance of sorts, that I would not see in the case of say, Casey Anthony. You have to be really honest about reasons that could explain actions and not just throw everything out based on one personal experience.

 

[BBB167893]

Thomas ignored evidence that didn't fit with his theory.

Oh, don't waste our time with that nonsense.

The case the BPD first presented to the DA was a joke...even a layperson could see that.

Not THIS layperson.

No prosecutor in his/her right mind would have tried to go to trial on the flimsy evidence.

People have gone away on MUCH less. Scott Peterson leaps to mind.

When it became evident that the "abrasions" were stun gun marks, the BPD quit pursuing trying to get to the truth on that.

Uh, last I knew, it was NEVER "Evident" that the abrasions were stun gun marks. (And I consider myself something of an authority on that subject.)

Thomas repeatedly said that PR's handwriting was the closest to a match, "of the people that were in the home at the time." Very clever wording.

Yes, and very to the point.

There were others that were a lot closer---Patsy scored a 4.5 out of 5, with 5 being no match.

That propaganda really needs to die. I do my best in chapter nine to do exactly that.

Giving any credence to Foster shows poor judgment.

Tell that to the DA. He didn't have any problems until he got the one answer he didn't want.

His prior claim to fame was based on having known writing samples by the author...and was just a matter of plugging into his computer to pick out similar phrases. Most of us know Foster's actions on this case, which are mindboggling--even moreso, that the BPD thought this guy was credible.

That ain't the way I heard it. (Pretty soon Walter Brennen's estate will be after me!)

Thomas ignored lack of motive,

Plenty of people have killed without motive.

history of the parents,

This whole "history" stuff is a useful myth. But that's all it is. Ask Casey Anthony.

the strength required to deliver the head blow,

To a 45-pound child?

the complexity of the garrotte,

Except it wasn't complex. "Very simple knots" were the examiner's words.

the lack of knowledge by the parents of movie lines,

It shows.

and the foreign and unexplained DNA.

EVERY crime scene has unexplained (and unexplainable) stuff. DON'T BELIEVE what Hoolywood tells you. I've YET to see a crime where every single thing clicked together as kosher as a movie.

When I say Thomas, it wasn't only him---I think most of the BPD were only too happy for him to be the front man, and the leaker. This was all about egos, and the fact the BPD were made to look like keystone cops in the media soon after the murder, and the Ramseys wouldn't cozy up to the BPD and put on a good front to the public.

It was all about egos, all right.

Bolded by me.When did THAT happen?
Not evident to me.

My thoughts exactly!

 

[Roy23]

It won't matter---ST and others will still blame the parents actions for the reason they went after the Ramseys.

I don't believe that at all.

The parents actions were a direct result from a shoddy investigation and ultimately witch hunt that came after.

If the truth turns out to be an unknown intruder, there could be no excuses for ST or some message board posters as well. It is written in books and documented.

 

[JMO8778]

keep in mind that even if there were a DNA match,the person would also have to be placed in Boulder on that night.I don't recall who it was that posted about a case where there was indeed a dna match in another case,but...the guy was 6 yrs old at the time.
I think there is another case where a match did occur,but the guy was in prison at the time.(correct me if I'm wrong).
what if the dna belongs to one of JB's playmates??It could certainly be an innocent match as well.