Surprising amount of Maddie's hair in car trunk

[BethInAK]

Apparently the three children were all IVF. so the discussion (amongst many others) is that maybe the three egss were fertilozed at the same time but that there were two pregnancies. This may account for the similarity of the DNA between the twins and Madeleine.


As my medical knowledge is -33percent, has anyone got enough to know whether or not this is a possibility?

The three children, from three different eggs and three different sperm should be as unique as any brother or sister. There is nothing magical about using IVF that makes the offspring more similar - each fertilized egg contains one sperm and one egg.

Except of course on the outside chance of an IVF that results in identical twins, which the twins obviously are not since they are different genders.

 

[pedinurse]

The three children, from three different eggs and three different sperm should be as unique as any brother or sister. There is nothing magical about using IVF that makes the offspring more similar - each fertilized egg contains one sperm and one egg.

Except of course on the outside chance of an IVF that results in identical twins, which the twins obviously are not since they are different genders.

exactly

 

[ThoughtFox]

There must have been "something" in the car trunk because now the McCann's are trying to explain the DNA:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/li...article_id=482490&in_page_id=1770&ito=newsnow

Family sources said:

• At least 30 people connected to the McCanns, including blood relatives, used the Renault Scenic before police seized it to gather forensic samples.

• Madeleine's belongings were transferred in the boot of the hire car, which could have left her DNA there.

• The belongings included her sandals which experts have told the family will include traces of DNA left from her sweat.

A source told the Standard today: "What people have got to ask themselves is just how many people were associated with that vehicle over a 10-week period.

"How many family, friends and campaign workers, how many blood relat ives, how many drivers?

"I know of at least 30 people being associated with that vehicle in the relevant period."

The source added: " People also need to consider what was carried in that car for entirely innocent reasons.

More at Link

Interestingly, no mention or explanation of the hair. :waitasec:

 

[SleuthMom]

What puzzles me is IF the amount of DNA is so little (that could have been a "transfer" from Maddie's toys or clothes) Why to even bother to mention it as evidence?

Unless, there is a considerable amount of DNA in that car (that will prove it is NOT just a "transfer") then we are talking about business, otherwise can be discarded so easily.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

What puzzles me is IF the amount of DNA is so little (that could have been a "transfer" from Maddie's toys or clothes) Why to even bother to mention it as evidence?

Unless, there is a considerable amount of DNA in that car (that will prove it is NOT just a "transfer") then we are talking about business, otherwise can be discarded so easily.

Because the DNA is from a DEAD person, not a live person. So, the transfer would have had to be after she died, which places her with one or both parents.

Moreover, the highly-regarded cadaver dogs hit on Mrs. McCann time after time after time. Thankfully, this was videotaped and thankfully these dogs were from the U.K., not Portugal, so there cannot be any complaints that the dog handler was biased.

 

[kgeaux]

Actually what it says is: "a source close to the investigation told The Times that forensics experts had found a surprising amount of Madeleine's hair in the hired Renault Scenic"

It also says... "Detectives had expected to find some of Madeleine's genetic material, skin flakes or hair in the car because it had been used to carry the family's belongings, including her clothes and toys"

and this: "the amount of hair came as a surprise, the source said, although detectives were not confident that they could prove beyond doubt their suspicions that Madeleine's body was ever in the car."

And about the DNA matches? "police today denied that there had been any perfect match, or one strong enough to stand up in court."

(Bolding all mine.)

Interesting article! I suggest everyone read the entire thing, before jumping onto sensational headlines or paragraph headers.

HaHa! Isn't it amazing? Same article, same words. Some people are taking it as gospel coming straight from the mouth of police, while police themselves are denying everything. The facts do tend to limit the discussion.

As to the hair: If mitochrondrial DNA was used to determine the hair was Maddie's, then we all need to take a big deep breath. Maddie, her mother, her sister and her brother all have the exact same mitochrondrial DNA. So perhaps there is a surprising amount because the hair comes from three sources.

 

[kgeaux]

Because the DNA is from a DEAD person, not a live person. So, the transfer would have had to be after she died, which places her with one or both parents.

Moreover, the highly-regarded cadaver dogs hit on Mrs. McCann time after time after time. Thankfully, this was videotaped and thankfully these dogs were from the U.K., not Portugal, so there cannot be any complaints that the dog handler was biased.

Jeana, I'm not sure what you mean? Maddie's DNA would be all over everything the family owns, so for her DNA to show up anywhere by transfer would be expected. There's nothing about DNA in itself that would show if it has come from a living or deceased person, is there?

The cadaver dogs did hit on Mrs. McCann, but as a physician she had dealt with death before, right? How long would that 'cadaver' smell stick around on her, do you know? And has anyone tried letting a cadaver dog sniff a doctor who was around a legitamate dead person for the length of time it's been since the last time Mrs. McCann was around a dead body?

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Jeana, I'm not sure what you mean? Maddie's DNA would be all over everything the family owns, so for her DNA to show up anywhere by transfer would be expected. There's nothing about DNA in itself that would show if it has come from a living or deceased person, is there?

The cadaver dogs did hit on Mrs. McCann, but as a physician she had dealt with death before, right? How long would that 'cadaver' smell stick around on her, do you know? And has anyone tried letting a cadaver dog sniff a doctor who was around a legitamate dead person for the length of time it's been since the last time Mrs. McCann was around a dead body?

Well if she took the proper precautions that all doctors are supposed to take when dealing with this sort of thing, according to the experts that have been on Nancy Grace's show, there NEVER should have been anything on her. So, considering she claims to have been around a deceased person six or so days BEFORE they went on their trip, spent several days on the trip before Maddy disappeared and considering that it was weeks and weeks after she disappeared that the dogs hit on her, I'd say its nearly impossible for her to still have that scent on her.

Edited to add, it was the cadaver dogs that hit on the trunk in the first place, so the DNA found there was from a deceased Maddy, not a live Maddy.

 

[kgeaux]

Article here about the hair in the car.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=482049&in_page_id=1770

Madeleine: Hair in McCann Renault: 'It could be anyone's'

Interesting. The initial article refereneced a "surprising" amount of MADDIE'S hair; not surprising enough to warrent an arrest, however. Somehow, on this thread the surprising amount morphed into clumps....I'm not sure how that happened! And now we find out that the "surprising" amount of "clumps" was really "fragments." Fragments of hair too small to even determine the sex of the person the hair belonged to.......determining sex is pretty simple, people, so if they can't even determine that, I think it's completely possible and even probable the fragments are going to turn out to be NOTHING as far as evidence.

Yeah but I mean, eggs are eggs... we have all the eggs we are ever gonna have at the time we are born. It doesn't matter. siblings are siblings. And maddie's DNA is Maddie's DnA. unless one of the twins is her absolute identical twin (not fraternal - identical, caused by an extra split of the egg)... which wouldn't be possible... then no...

More likely, the hair is there because after death, your hair starts to fall out because some of the follicles start to release. Sad.

We now know there are no hair follicules, not even strands of hair. The newest article references "fragments" of hair

Well if she took the proper precautions that all doctors are supposed to take when dealing with this sort of thing, according to the experts that have been on Nancy Grace's show, there NEVER should have been anything on her. So, considering she claims to have been around a deceased person six or so days BEFORE they went on their trip, spent several days on the trip before Maddy disappeared and considering that it was weeks and weeks after she disappeared that the dogs hit on her, I'd say its nearly impossible for her to still have that scent on her.

I tend to agree with you, except that if she had the same t-shirt on on both occaisions, would that be enough for the dogs to hit on?

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I tend to agree with you, except that if she had the same t-shirt on on both occaisions, would that be enough for the dogs to hit on?

I'm not sure. I don't think that its something that I've seen about in all of the cases that we've discussed. Sorry I can't be more help. I guess if this whole thing ever gets to trial, they'll have to get samples of the DNA of those deceased persons that Mrs. McCann claims to have been around so the DNA can be compared. That shouldn't be too difficult to do and it would at least answer the question on this one topic.

 

[harleysnana]

I tend to agree with you, except that if she had the same t-shirt on on both occaisions, would that be enough for the dogs to hit on?

I'm not sure about her ... but I would wash the shirt I was wearing
if I had it on around a dead body!
Especially if I was going to take the same shirt on vacation!

 

[kgeaux]

I'm not sure. I don't think that its something that I've seen about in all of the cases that we've discussed. Sorry I can't be more help. I guess if this whole thing ever gets to trial, they'll have to get samples of the DNA of those deceased persons that Mrs. McCann claims to have been around so the DNA can be compared. That shouldn't be too difficult to do and it would at least answer the question on this one topic.

I don't think the dogs smell DNA. There's a transfer of the scent of chemicals released upon death, not physical material. At least that's what I've always thought. So there won't be any way to prove the scent came from someone else or from Maddie. Unless it's scientifically impossible for the scent to last that long on an article of clothing. That's why I'm so curious about this.....

I'm not sure about her ... but I would wash the shirt I was wearing
if I had it on around a dead body!
Especially if I was going to take the same shirt on vacation!

I don't think washing removes the scent that the dog picks up on. She probably did wash it----IF she was wearing the same shirt! It's just a hypothetical I'm tossing about, trying to understand if there could be a reasonable explanation for the cadaver dogs to hit on Mrs. McCann, other than the possibility she was involved in Maddie's death.

 

[SleuthMom]

Because the DNA is from a DEAD person, not a live person. So, the transfer would have had to be after she died, which places her with one or both parents.

Thanks for the clarification Jeana. I am really confused about this DNA talk. So if the DNA is from a DEAD person, why then the parents are given the excuse that some of the toys and sandals of Madeleine where placed in the trunk and that's why the police may have found some DNA?

 

[BethInAK]

Interesting. The initial article refereneced a "surprising" amount of MADDIE'S hair; not surprising enough to warrent an arrest, however.

even if there were HANDFULS of maddies hair in the trunk it doesn't show where the hair came from or how it got there unless the McCanns were the only people to use the car, so of course the hair isn't enough evidence to arrest anyone.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I don't think the dogs smell DNA. There's a transfer of the scent of chemicals released upon death, not physical material. At least that's what I've always thought. So there won't be any way to prove the scent came from someone else or from Maddie. Unless it's scientifically impossible for the scent to last that long on an article of clothing. That's why I'm so curious about this.....

THIS is what the dog hit on:

Cadaverine is a very intersting and useful chemical. It is C5H13N2 and looks like this: H2N/\/\/NH2. It is closely related to putrescine, spermine, and spermidine. It is called cadaverine because is comes from human corpses and is one of the chemicals that causes that awful odor. Cadaverine also contributes to the odors of urine and semen. Cadaverine is found in some plants in trace amounts as a result of stress on the plant. It is sold in some hunting supply stores as a poisonous liquid that attracts scavengers. It is also used as a tool for training search and rescue dogs.

Cadaverine is a completely unwholesome substance. Do NOT get it on anything you are going to keep, especially yourself. It DOES NOT wash off. It will be with you until your skin washes away. If you get it in someone's car (say in their heating system or injected into the rubber of their door windows) they will be forced to scrap the car. This is just one of the many uses of cadaverine! Most of cadaverine's uses, however, are to make things smell really really bad, so I won't explain any more here. I'm sure you'll be able to figure out some uses for it yourself.

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node=cadaverine

 

[Jeana (DP)]

even if there were HANDFULS of maddies hair in the trunk it doesn't show where the hair came from or how it got there unless the McCanns were the only people to use the car, so of course the hair isn't enough evidence to arrest anyone.

Of course its not enough to arrest anyone, but it is very useful in determining where Maddy's body could have been placed before they found somewhere to leave her. I believe they can tell if the hair came out pre- or post-mortem (if I'm wrong, please someone set me straight). If the hair came from a dead Maddy, then the parents have a lot of explaining to do. Hair from a three-year old doesn't find it self under the carpet in the trunk of a rental car. This should be very easily explained if they're innocent.

 

[BethInAK]

Of course its not enough to arrest anyone, but it is very useful in determining where Maddy's body could have been placed before they found somewhere to leave her. I believe they can tell if the hair came out pre- or post-mortem (if I'm wrong, please someone set me straight). If the hair came from a dead Maddy, then the parents have a lot of explaining to do. Hair from a three-year old doesn't find it self under the carpet in the trunk of a rental car. This should be very easily explained if they're innocent.

I agree. I was just responding to the statement
"Interesting. The initial article refereneced a "surprising" amount of MADDIE'S hair; not surprising enough to warrent an arrest, however."

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I agree. I was just responding to the statement
"Interesting. The initial article refereneced a "surprising" amount of MADDIE'S hair; not surprising enough to warrent an arrest, however."

I agree. However, we know that the hair alone wouldn't ever be enough for an arrest warrant; however, the evidence in its totality is what either will or won't get them arrested.

 

[Texana]

Thanks for the info about the cadaverine chemical, Jeana. It sounded like a stretch for the cadaver odor to get into Kate's clothing or shoes, particularly with medical procedures for contamination, etc--but I thought well, perhaps if she had a belt on under her doctor's jacket, and wore the same belt--etc.

However, you are right about the cadaver dogs hitting on the Scenic. The only reason the car was searched again and so thoroughly was the dogs' alerting.

PS Edited to add, I now have a new phobia, Cadaverineobia.

 

[SleuthMom]

What is the amount of hair needed to determine if it from a living or dead person? Does anyone know?

Because if the issue is that "there is not enough hair to test" as it was reported, I want to know if with minimal hair if is possible to determine that.