Syringe in bottle contained traces of chloroform

[wendypi]

Another thought...Crasey could have gotten that syringe from any number of the partys she attended (to search for her daughteer). If she steals checks from friends...she could easily snoop in a medicine cabint, bedroom...etc. for some goods...and she very well may have helped herself to a syringe that she stumbled on while at a party. Anyone of the beefcakes she hung out with could have been injecting testosterone...

 

[MD MOMMY]

Someone other than Casey you mean? What makes you think it would not be Casey's?

Maybe b/c 99% of her things were stolen from others LOL? Just kidding, well not really.

 

[ynotdivein]

I've quoted my original post, where I listed an interpretation of the results, gave a link to the data, and also provided page numbers for reference.

DogMom, you are simply AWESOME. Thanks for the time and energy you are giving to this case. :applause:

 

[notthatsmart]

BBM:

Just out of curiosity, how do swimming pools produce chloroform? That would not be something that would occur naturally. Would need and outside chemical, no?

This comes out to be a matter of interpretation . I read that if you get out of a swimming pool and wipe your arms off onto the seat of your car, there will be traces of chloroform on the seats. Perhaps wet towels thrown in a trunk. A bathing suit. I also read there are traces of chloroform in ground water. And of course if you think about it. All the chemicals that we produce come from mother earth. ( not sure about teflon) I think that we are going to find that chloroform is in all kinds of things. And since I state that as my interpretation, I also state it as my opinon.

ps could also be in febreeze but I heard their ingrediants are secret.

 

[lizzysf]

Wait. On pg. 10459 of NH's forensic entomology report he states....

"These conditions imply that remains were removed earlier in this earlier interval (June 19-22) rather than later (June 23-27)." Pg 10459 (BBM)

That is but a snippet of the section, but when I read that......I immediately thought that it actually dovetails w/ the air sample report of 2.6 days...

Unless I made an error and reached the wrong conclusion. I will have to go back and look at the pertinent page.....

Entomology conclusion.. the body was removed from the car between June 20-27.

http://www.clickorlando.com/download/2009/1106/21539770.pdf

Meaning... at minimum 4 days, max 11 days in the trunk.. Body farm report 2.6 days. Yes, close.... But I do believe it wasn't until later that she dumped her body. (gas can incident on the 24th)...which would be 8 days. She reports to Amy June 27th that she got rid of the dead squirrel plastered to her car. So how accurately do the two really dovetail together? And how accurate is the Chloroform finding in the same report? I am sooo on the fence with the Chloroform issue.

 

[ZsaZsa]

That's because every doc dump is like a big cliff-hanger, we get some information, but never quite enough to say definitively what happened. Now that all this evidence from the dump site is in, we are anxious to know whose fingerprints are on it, and - what was she really doing when she went to JG's for an unnecessary shower? Will we find out next time? Where does that fit into all of this? Talk about a page turner!


OOPS I thought I had inserted a quote from Friday's post- see how this case is driving everyone to distraction ( me too apparently(.

 

[carrie]

NG went to town with it yesterday. She didn't just say "trace" evidence either...she said there was a whole lot. I just shook my head.

She's the media equivalent of an ambulance chaser - IMHO only. :twocents:

 

[notthatsmart]

About chloroform... you could probably detect it in ANY sample if the detection limit for your instrument was low enough. I've done a presentation on tandem-MS-MS analysis of VOC's (volatile organic compounds) in breath samples and they were able to detect chloroform (very very VERY low concentrations.... but it was still detected).
This may help to clear things up a bit..."Volatile" means that it evaporates easily... and you have to remember that just because something evaporates doesn't mean that it disappears. Law of conservation of mass... matter can not be created or destroyed, only changes forms... it may be volatile (evaporate) but that doesn't mean that it ceases to exist. Hope this makes sense and helps.

And I would like to add that in most of this case we are talking about trace evidence.

 

[Friday]

And then there's Kronk, who although certain he saw a kid's skull, just lets it all slide until December after being blown off by a cop.

Oh, absolutely! This is defintely a major one for the Believe-It-Not Headbanger Thread. And let's not forget that instead of opening the suspicious bag himself, he takes a Rattlesnake Souvenir! Which he puts into his freezer. Who does a thing like that, anyway???

 

[ZsaZsa]

This comes out to be a matter of interpretation . I read that if you get out of a swimming pool and wipe your arms off onto the seat of your car, there will be traces of chloroform on the seats. Perhaps wet towels thrown in a trunk. A bathing suit. I also read there are traces of chloroform in ground water. And of course if you think about it. All the chemicals that we produce come from mother earth. ( not sure about teflon) I think that we are going to find that chloroform is in all kinds of things. And since I state that as my interpretation, I also state it as my opinon.

ps could also be in febreeze but I heard their ingrediants are secret.

I think you'll find the Anthonys used a non chlorinated pool agent, Baquacil. That was what was photographed in their garage. NO chlorine, no chloroform. During all Casey's staying at other people's homes I never heard mention of her swimming anywhere else either.

 

[DogMom2JoeAndWillie]

And I would like to add that in most of this case we are talking about trace evidence.

I also should have added that I'm not ready to say if it's "trace amounts" or "significant levels" or "dangerous levels" or anything else until I see the data that proves it to me. I just haven't run across it yet... still digging though.... promise to give my two cents (as always) once I've seen the data myself.

 

[ThoughtElf]

I've got a ping pong like game going in my head tonight:

not enough to tie bottle/syringe to KC <--> too many chloroform coincidences for it not to

I think I'm the player on the other side of the table playing with you. (Btw, nice paddle. Is it new?)

 

[wendypi]

I think you'll find the Anthonys used a non chlorinated pool agent, Baquacil. That was what was photographed in their garage. NO chlorine, no chloroform. During all Casey's staying at other people's homes I never heard mention of her swimming anywhere else either.

Actually, Casey and Tony took CA swimming at his place...

 

[ZsaZsa]

Actually, Casey and Tony took CA swimming at his place...

Yes, I had forgotten that, thanks. That was way before she disappeared though, wasn't it?

 

[ThoughtElf]

I think you'll find the Anthonys used a non chlorinated pool agent, Baquacil. That was what was photographed in their garage. NO chlorine, no chloroform. During all Casey's staying at other people's homes I never heard mention of her swimming anywhere else either.

Caylee swam at the pool at Tony's apartment, but I doubt the pool chemicals were readily available for KC to grab, so I am not sure that is meaningful in regards to your question.

ETA: - dang y'all is good. ^

 

[DotsEyes]

If the syringe is related then unless KC injected testosterone, we can assume she stole the syringe. Any number of people, male and female, were subject to having their garbage confiscated by KC and that is sorta like stealing.

Chloroform must be stored in glass. Someone here mentioned dark glass. Like a beer bottle?

And to those of you who are chemists, thank you for sharing your knowledge with us. Now, can you give it to us in baby talk? Those discussions of spematagraphazenagorbicalfutlaram and all are zooming way over my head.

 

[DogMom2JoeAndWillie]

Thank you. You are correct. And I hope those results are surfaced, too.

You're adept at navigating through these & interpreting. Can you elaborate a bit on the mass spec results for 238.1? I think they're around 11630-11650. Can't recall, but I will look. Or was that the pp count you cited earlier?

I know you weren't asking me, but I wanted to let you guys know that the pages I referred you to ARE the results you're looking for. If you're unable to read them and understand them for yourself, you'll have to take my word for it, I guess. Those three chromatographs show you that they specifically analyzed for the three ions with the highest intensity that you would expect to observe when chloroform is fragmented. They observed a response at the same retention time when they did "selective ion monitoring" so they knew that this "peak" was actually chloroform. The fact that the mass spectrum that resulted from their analysis EXACTLY matches that of chloroform proves that there was chloroform in the sample. If you want me to explain the fragmentation pattern of chloroform and need me to explain in further detail, I'd be happy to, but I'm afraid I'll just bore everyone to death with the details and jargon.

 

[QuietStorm]

I am still reading this whole thread, am on page 32. But I wanted to share something in the meantime. Remember the shovel KC borrowed and that the neighbor saw her back her car into the garage several times? I found this at http://www.ehow.com/how_2069802_treat-chloroform-poisoning.html and found it very interesting:

Step 3 Clean up spills while wearing breathing apparatus and gloves. Apply a dispersing agent if available, otherwise absorb the spillage using sand and a shovel. Unprotected people should keep a safe distance as chloroform is both powerful and fast-acting. The work atmosphere should not contain more than 10 parts per million of chloroform.

It's possible, isn't it, that she spilled the chloroform into her trunk that same day and used sand from the sandbox and the shovel to clean it up. It seems to fit if indeed, as it has been posited, that Caylee was killed at home. The shovel and sand reference just jumped out at me. I don't know if any sand was found with Caylee or if so, if it could be differentiated from playbox sand. So much not known.

Poor baby could have been killed in her own bedroom where so much of what was found with the remains was stored. Also, duct tape and stickers nearby, empty toilet paper tube a few steps away.

Just wondering "outloud" in writing.

More thoughts: If the choloroform was in the garage and she spilled it somehow in the trunk (cap not on tight, poured from one container to the bottle (open garage, fumes maybe not a problem, whatever), she could have taken the original container at a later visit and disposed of it. I think for KC, everything had to be at the scene of the crime and she was thinking reactively most of the time rather than proactively. Just more thinking . . . Back to page 33 for me.

 

[ZsaZsa]

Caylee swam at the pool at Tony's apartment, but I doubt the pool chemicals were readily available for KC to grab, so I am not sure that is meaningful in regards to your question.

Yes, I was referring to Notthatsmart's comment that the chloroform in KC's car may have come from her depositing a wet towel or wiping her arms on the seat after swimming, and since the Anthonys did not use chlorine in their own pool and as they (Casey and Caylee) did swim just once at TL's pool. I thought that was a very unlikely explanation

 

[magic-cat]

Can anyone provide a link to the docs that specifically discusses today's findings for the syringe? I'm going nuts and think I've missed it. Thanks!

You and me both!

I'd expect to find the rag under the tape if that were the case.

I hate to be graphic, but considering that animals preyed upon poor little baby, it would not be suprising if the rag had been torn away...also could have been pure cotton and degraded like the shirt.

Page 1 of this thread, opening post.

Nope...there is no link to a document in that post only to a news article which also does not specify a document...:banghead: