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Taking Christ out of Christmas
- Thread starter Indy Gal
- Start date
Anytime...:blowkiss:
I will try very hard not to get locked out again. I need to learn just to walk away..LOLOT - IG I'm glad you are back. Not sure what happened but for Pete's sake don't do it again.
Thanks Indy. I am all better now. See the picture of me and my new boyfriend? I am as happy as a clam now!!!!
He sure is a cutie, you go girl!! Live for you now!!:clap: :clap:Thanks Indy. I am all better now. See the picture of me and my new boyfriend? I am as happy as a clam now!!!!
Me too, I was not thinking this would turn into a religion thread, DUH me!! LOL There are things I have learned not to speak with others about Religion and Politics.....
Nova
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I don't like you?! I am very, very sorry I gave you that impression. I promise you no such thing ever entered my mind.
I was just making a point about the temper of one remark. I certainly didn't mean to condemn you as a person or to question your faith.
I'm asking what is the "true" spirit of Christmas? Since God chose to incarnate through an unwed Jewish mother who found herself in greatly reduced circumstances in a foreign place (even for those who believe the story is a profound myth rather than historical fact), then I have to think the "true" spirit of Christmas has something to do with Good Will Toward All Mankind, not just those who are like us or those who believe as we do.
As such, a wish that celebrates whatever days are important to the recipient seems more sincere than one which merely asserts one's right to one's own beliefs (though I certainly support that right).
So if I know someone is Jewish, for example, I wish her a Happy Chanukah. But with strangers, I choose words that can apply to whatever the stranger finds meaningful and special.
And on that note, mreg2, I want to sincerely wish you (and Indy Law and Paladin and Dark Knight and Maral) a very, very merry Christmas indeed!
ember
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No....you are very much wrong. The "pagan thing" is most definitely NOT an excuse. Let's have a history lesson...
Pagans were celebrating the birth of the sun-god. Mithra, long before Christ was even born.
The winter holiday became known as Saturnalia and began the week prior to December 25th. The festival was characterized by gift-giving, feasting, singing and downright debauchery, as the priests of Saturn carried wreaths of evergreen boughs in procession throughout the Roman temples.
Variations of this pagan holiday flourished throughout the first few centuries after Jesus Christ, but it probably wasn't until 336 AD that Emperor Constantine officially converted this pagan tradition into the "Christian" holiday of Christmas.
And they took many pagan traditions and made them their own:
Many of our modern Christmas traditions began hundreds of years before Christ was born. Some of these traditions date back more than 4000 years. The addition of Christ to the celebration of the winter solstice did not occur until 300 years after Christ died and as late as 1800, some devout Christian sects, like the Puritans, forbade their members from celebrating Christmas because it was considered a pagan holiday.
The Christmas tree is derived from several solstice traditions. The Romans decked their halls with garlands of laurel and placed candles in live trees to decorate for the celebration of Saturnalia. In Scandinavia, they hung apples from evergreen trees at the winder solstice to remind themselves that spring and summer will come again. The evergreen tree was the special plant of their sun god, Baldor.
The practice of exchanging gifts at a winter celebration is also pre-Christian and is from the Roman Saturnalia. They would exchange good-luck gifts called Stenae (lucky fruits). They also would have a big feast just like we do today.
Mistletoe is from an ancient Druid custom at the winter solstice. Mistletoe was considered a divine plant and it symbolized love and peace. The tradition of kissing under the mistletoe is Druid in origin.
The Scandinavian solstice traditions had a lot of influences on our celebration besides the hanging of ornaments on evergreen trees. Their ancient festival was called Yuletide and celebrated the return of the sun.
One of their traditions was the Yule log. The log was the center of the trunk of a tree that was dragged to a large fireplace where it was supposed to burn for twelve days. From this comes the twelve days of Christmas.
Even the date of Christmas, December 25, was borrowed from another religion. At the time Christmas was created in AD 320, Mithraism was very popular. The early Christian church had gotten tired of their futile efforts to stop people celebrating the solstice and the birthday of Mithras, the Persian sun god. Mithras birthday was December 25. So the pope at the time decided to make Jesus official birthday coincide with Mithras birthday. No one knows what time of year Jesus was actually born but there is evidence to suggest that it was in midsummer.
However, I agree the date of Christ's birth is irrelevant. I believe he was a great man and his birth deserves to be celebrated. But I don't think people should be ignorant to the facts if they don't have to be.
And I'm not saying we shouldn't celebrate Christmas. I use the word myself. "Merry Christmas" just has a more magical ring to it than any other season greeting. By the way...the "Merry" part, it's pagan too. The pagan greeting is often "Merry Meet"
Again, whether you like it or not, Christianity has alot of pagan DNA. You can choose to believe it or not....but it doesn't change what is fact.
Nova
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I had no idea that had happened, IG. I would have been bereft!
Definitely sticky topics, Indy! BTW, where are you from in Indiana?
Indianapolis. Cold and snowy here...blah LOL
I am sure you of all people have seen me get worked up, only from the threads we post at...LOL I am just glad it is over..LOL
Nova
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Ember, I don't think Dark Knight was arguing that pagan holidays and elements weren't incorporated into the celebration of Christmas. He knows that.
He just meant that ancient pagan associations are a poor excuse to ignore the greater truth of the occasion.
He just meant that ancient pagan associations are a poor excuse to ignore the greater truth of the occasion.
I could have written that on all accounts.
Only a fool is offended at being excluded from something he/she wishes not be in involved in. People are offended today because it is fashionable and being angry and/or offended gives them the feeling of being deep or important on a level superior to the rest of us.
Nova
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Honestly, IG, I don't think "PC ppl" are doing that (except for the ongoing conflict over religious displays on government property, as you know).
I am so often accused of being PC here, I assume I am empowered to speak for my "tribe."
Here is my list I am thinking of when I say thatHonestly, IG, I don't think "PC ppl" are doing that (except for the ongoing conflict over religious displays on government property, as you know).
I am so often accused of being PC here, I assume I am empowered to speak for my "tribe."
1. santa shouldnt be fat
2. Santa shouldnt say ho ho ho
3. Of course the topic here not saying MC
There are more but my mind is drawling a blank of course..LOL it just doesnt feel like the Christmas I knew as a kid and I am just scared that tradition will be long gone for my child.