The (Alleged) Abduction

[jamicat]

Since Hannah was willingly going with JM, it would have taken no effort to get her into the front seat. She would have willigly gotten in there if she were expecting that he was going to give her a ride home or to wherever she wanted to go. Easy, peasy. Why take the chance of trying get a close to 6 feet tall into a trunk right there?

My guess is that instead of going to where she wanted to go , he went elsewhere, secluded and got her out of the car there. LE probably thinks the same.

 

[cady]

JMO Since I do not think that JM pre-planned this event, I think that the likeliest place to dispose of her was a large dumpster. It is possible that she passed out or was comatose and he THOUGHT she had died. It is also possible that there wasn't a sexual assault. But, even if that were so, he claims (through grandma) that she was never in his car....so he isn't about to tell anyone that she indeed was, because he is banking on her never being found, and therefore no beyond a doubt proof of sexual assault. But LE MUST have some tangible proof that she was in his car...........so the abduction charge stands. Wish we knew what LE knows. JMO

 

[jamicat]

<modsnip> I wanted to throw out some ideas, and read others' ideas, without confusing people about what the facts of the case are. Would also like to see others pick apart ideas and theories. There are a number of possibiities in mind as to what might have happened and I am not stuck or convinced of any them. There are also some things that I believe that though they are possible, are far fetched. For example, I don't believe JM went and got Hannah's body and threw it in the trunk of sister's car and dumped it between here and TX. I don't believe JM was a serial killer looking for a victim to kill that night and had a well planned course of action. I don't believe he is part of a white slavery ring and sold Hannah to some such contact. Nor do I believe he simply gave her a ride and dropped her off somewhere, or that she decided not to go into his car and walked off, and they innocently went their separate ways, as the Daily Mirror said his grandmother stated. I think LE has evidence or shortly will have to eliminate those theories even if they may be possible right now with the facts I have. So I'll post my first theory of what I think might have happened that night, and people can tear it up, point out the pitfalls in it, agree, and come up with whole other ideas that they feel are more likely. I'd like ideas that only fit the facts as they are out there, though it's a free forum here.

 

[brandalous]

Thats interesting. I was thinking they found the drinks from Tempo in the car, but that wouldnt indicate abduction. If she passed out before they made it to the car, he may have put her in the trunk, or if he raped her in the car, then put her in after that...ugh.

The part of your comment that I bolded reminded me of something that keeps triggering notice for me. This may have changed in the 10+ years since I was one to go out and hang out drinking in bars (and may be something only found in more conservative areas like where I'm from), but from my experiences alcoholic drinks weren't allowed off the premises. If the bar had an outside area, you could wander around but never take a drink out through the main door past the bouncers at the entrance/exit. I've thought of this when I've seen it suggested that he purchased drinks and took them out to her since she is underage. We also have laws about open containers in vehicles.

So, would he have been able to take drinks outside of Tempo? Does VA have these kind of regulations? Further, would she have even been able to get in to use the facilities as has been suggested, since she's underage? Just some things I wonder about...

 

[erica115]

JMO Since I do not think that JM pre-planned this event, I think that the likeliest place to dispose of her was a large dumpster. It is possible that she passed out or was comatose and he THOUGHT she had died. It is also possible that there wasn't a sexual assault. But, even if that were so, he claims (through grandma) that she was never in his car....so he isn't about to tell anyone that she indeed was, because he is banking on her never being found, and therefore no beyond a doubt proof of sexual assault. But LE MUST have some tangible proof that she was in his car...........so the abduction charge stands. Wish we knew what LE knows. JMO

Myself, I believe that the abduction charge could stand even without evidence that HG was ever in the car. (Kind of a long shot given attitudes about consent, but hear me out.)

1. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to infer from JLM's behavior earlier in the night that he was looking to "get some."
2. JLM left a bar with HG, with whom he had no previous relationship history, and who was clearly too intoxicated to form consent to sexual activity with a stranger.

Those two facts alone indicate abduction with intent to molest, and the fact that HG disappeared right after that further supports the suspicion of intent to molest and indicates a likelihood that some sort of molestation took place. But again, the abduction with intent is right there in front of our eyes without any further evidence at all.

I know I'll hear lots of awkward protestations about how half the people who leave college bars could be arrested for the same thing, but the reality is that the public view of consent is, thankfully, starting to change. If more people teach our kids that the standard for consent must be not merely an absence of "no" but an enthusiastic (and sober enough) "yes!", our kids would be happier, healthier and far less traumatized by their teen and college years.

It will be interesting to see what happens with this charge if no further evidence is found. I have deliberately avoided forming any particular opinion about the people involved in this case but part of me is very pleased that Longo rolled it out there. It really speaks to his commitment to a more modern way of looking at police work.

(In my perfect world, HG would emerge alive and JLM would be prosecuted on the abduction/intent charge even if it turns out that HG fought him off before anything "happened" and then immediately left to go camping alone for two weeks in a place with no phone/internet access.... JLM would see the error of his ways, publicly apologize to HG and would work out his sentence by touring colleges with the message that only "yes" means "yes." As a result of JLM's efforts, the incidence of rape on college campuses would drop by 40%, and by 15% nationwide. It all comes full-circle when HG, who is by that time Secretary General of the UN, invites JLM to speak to the General Assembly and he receives a standing ovation. Ain't gonna happen but you have to admit it's quite a scenario. :^)

I know this is the search forum, not the soapbox forum--but I guess my overall point is that if a different understanding of the meaning of consent were anchored in our culture, we might not be searching for HG at all.

 

[brandalous]

In the picture JM's friend took of JM and that girl around 12:00, he looked really lit. Not sure how that affected his personality...or how good his memory was when he sobered up.

Have we seen that pic?

It is on the Inside CVille blog that has the LJ timeline: http://insidecville.com/blog/ljs-timeline/

The female's face is blocked out, but yes I also thought he looked like he was under an influence. I rather thought he looked high, but I would have no way of knowing that of course!

 

[MrPalomar]

Since Hannah was willingly going with JM, it would have taken no effort to get her into the front seat. She would have willigly gotten in there if she were expecting that he was going to give her a ride home or to wherever she wanted to go. Easy, peasy. Why take the chance of trying get a close to 6 feet tall into a trunk right there?

My guess is that instead of going to where she wanted to go , he went elsewhere, secluded and got her out of the car there. LE probably thinks the same.

I completely agree with this theory. While evidence that someone is in the trunk definitely indicates an abduction, it seems to me that it's not necessary that the person ever have been in the trunk.

That being said, I do think Hannah was in JM's trunk at some point sadly, just not at first.

 

[jamicat]

I completely agree with this theory. While evidence that someone is in the trunk definitely indicates an abduction, it seems to me that it's not necessary that the person ever have been in the trunk.

That being said, I do think Hannah was in JM's trunk at some point sadly, just not at first.

BBM

Not necessarily. He might have taken her directly to some secluded spot he knew and then dumped her directly in that area. It would be great for LE to find evidence of her in the trunk. Easier to explain that she was in the front seat; at this point that's a given To explain what she was doing in the trunk....umm, not so easy.

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

Thinking about those abduction charges and the possible root...

The obvious is signs HG has been in the trunk of JM's car. Another thought I have is that LE knows there actually was a party HG was trying to get to--because he was seen with her, he had a car, she never showed up for the party, they say he abducted her. The person she sent that last text to could have provided LE information of another party. Back to the wording of the text..."I'm coming to a party, but I'm lost...."

 

[R.U.Kidding!]

Myself, I believe that the abduction charge could stand even without evidence that HG was ever in the car. (Kind of a long shot given attitudes about consent, but hear me out.)

1. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to infer from JLM's behavior earlier in the night that he was looking to "get some."
2. JLM left a bar with HG, with whom he had no previous relationship history, and who was clearly too intoxicated to form consent to sexual activity with a stranger.

Those two facts alone indicate abduction with intent to molest, and the fact that HG disappeared right after that further supports the suspicion of intent to molest and indicates a likelihood that some sort of molestation took place. But again, the abduction with intent is right there in front of our eyes without any further evidence at all.

I know I'll hear lots of awkward protestations about how half the people who leave college bars could be arrested for the same thing, but the reality is that the public view of consent is, thankfully, starting to change. If more people teach our kids that the standard for consent must be not merely an absence of "no" but an enthusiastic (and sober enough) "yes!", our kids would be happier, healthier and far less traumatized by their teen and college years.

It will be interesting to see what happens with this charge if no further evidence is found. I have deliberately avoided forming any particular opinion about the people involved in this case but part of me is very pleased that Longo rolled it out there. It really speaks to his commitment to a more modern way of looking at police work.

(In my perfect world, HG would emerge alive and JLM would be prosecuted on the abduction/intent charge even if it turns out that HG fought him off before anything "happened" and then immediately left to go camping alone for two weeks in a place with no phone/internet access.... JLM would see the error of his ways, publicly apologize to HG and would work out his sentence by touring colleges with the message that only "yes" means "yes." As a result of JLM's efforts, the incidence of rape on college campuses would drop by 40%, and by 15% nationwide. It all comes full-circle when HG, who is by that time Secretary General of the UN, invites JLM to speak to the General Assembly and he receives a standing ovation. Ain't gonna happen but you have to admit it's quite a scenario. :^)

I know this is the search forum, not the soapbox forum--but I guess my overall point is that if a different understanding of the meaning of consent were anchored in our culture, we might not be searching for HG at all.

Hi Erica,

Yes I agree "in a Perfect world" ......... In a perfect world there would not even be CRIME

Unfortunately things seem to be getting worse instead of better. I remember when in 2009 when Morgan Harrington was missing, I among many others were appalled that her friends just let her leave the arena with a phone call that said she would find a ride home! Really! How does this allow friends to just return to their seats and convince themselves (oh she's fine, she will just find a ride home with some pervert out there). Then to make matters worse they did not even report her missing until Sunday night and that was because her father called them.

I realized then that there will always be those young people who feel they are just untouchable. To young to die or have anything horrible happen to them. So they continue to drink themselves sick., and having been there myself, you DO NOT KNOW anything but drunk. Too drunk to help yourself let alone have the wits about you to help someone else. It was not until I was among these friends when I was on medication that kept me from joining in the drinking. I was shocked when I watched them and I knew I was looking at myself. Here is the worst part--did that stop me from drinking, NO....in fact I went on to became an alcoholic. I am lucky I am still alive.

Sorry to say in my opinion as long as their are young groups with peer pressure to go out and have FUN by drinking and doing drugs, their irresponsible actions are going to threaten their lives each time this happens---what can you do, they are just YOUNG and have not experienced the "dark side of the World". UGH!!! Look at "Spring Break" When you are young you feel "unbreakable", and I am afraid it is too deep rooted in the young away from home student.

...but that's just my thinking.

 

[ZsaZsa]

BBM

Not necessarily. He might have taken her directly to some secluded spot he knew and then dumped her directly in that area. It would be great for LE to find evidence of her in the trunk. Easier to explain that she was in the front seat; at this point that's a given To explain what she was doing in the trunk....umm, not so easy.

Unless you get a Jury like the Casey Anthony trial...

 

[Bearmama]

In viewing HG's Twitter feed, I was surprised how many of the screen shots she ultimately posted have a "No Service" indicated on them. Maybe I'm looking at the pictures wrong, but it seems to me that whatever carrier she had provided poor service in a number of areas she was. I wonder if her last text could actually have been sent earlier, but because of her lack of carrier service it didn't get delivered until 1:40 n

 

[sixecho]

In viewing HG's Twitter feed, I was surprised how many of the screen shots she ultimately posted have a "No Service" indicated on them. Maybe I'm looking at the pictures wrong, but it seems to me that whatever carrier she had provided poor service in a number of areas she was. I wonder if her last text could actually have been sent earlier, but because of her lack of carrier service it didn't get delivered until 1:40 n

I also found that disturbing. She always seemed to have been connected to wifi though. My guess? Perhaps she also had an iPOD. They are very much like iPhone's but they need wifi and don't have service. I could very well be wrong as I only have an iPhone. Another thing to point out about twitter. It's clear she likes to drink meaning she knows how to handle liquor. It's also clear she's familiar with her iPhone and it's many apps..including the maps app.

 

[Marah]

It is on the Inside CVille blog that has the LJ timeline: http://insidecville.com/blog/ljs-timeline/

The female's face is blocked out, but yes I also thought he looked like he was under an influence. I rather thought he looked high, but I would have no way of knowing that of course!

Thanks. I have read that article many times but never saw the pics before. Hmmm...strange.

 

[CanSleuth]

I can see an abduction charge from the trunk evidence, but what about the intent to defile? I wonder what that evidence consists of?

JM admitted to police that he bought HG alcohol, but he denied that she ever got in his car. He told police that they 'went their separate ways'. I think this is a key part of his statement in that if LE found any trace of HG inside or even on JM's car, then his statement is false and he has been caught in a lie, making him look suspicious. If JM had said to LE that yes HG was in his car and he dropped her off somewhere else, then although still a POI there would be a logical explanation for her DNA being in his car. It's my assumption that DNA such as blood or the co-mingling of bodily fluids would need to be found to support the charges.

 

[sixecho]

JM admitted to police that he bought HG alcohol, but he denied that she ever got in his car. He told police that they 'went their separate ways'. I think this is a key part of his statement in that if LE found any trace of HG inside or even on JM's car, then his statement is false and he has been caught in a lie, making him look suspicious. If JM had said to LE that yes HG was in his car and he dropped her off somewhere else, then although still a POI there would be a logical explanation for her DNA being in his car. It's my assumption that DNA such as blood or the co-mingling of bodily fluids would need to be found to support the charges.

True but HG and JM were in close proximity to each other that nice and hair from her could have easily transferred from her to his shirt and to his car. I think hair would also constitute as DNA and give LE probable cause. But I think that would also be weak for them to prove. Now, if they found blood, or something else then that's very damning.

 

[slowpoke]

JM admitted to police that he bought HG alcohol, but he denied that she ever got in his car. He told police that they 'went their separate ways'. I think this is a key part of his statement in that if LE found any trace of HG inside or even on JM's car, then his statement is false and he has been caught in a lie, making him look suspicious. If JM had said to LE that yes HG was in his car and he dropped her off somewhere else, then although still a POI there would be a logical explanation for her DNA being in his car. It's my assumption that DNA such as blood or the co-mingling of bodily fluids would need to be found to support the charges.

I read something like that (about JM saying he bought HG drinks and then they went their separate ways), but what I read was that this is what JM told his mother, as told by JM's grandmother (per the Daily Mail report). I missed that this is also what he admitted to the police. Can someone share a link to that? I was under the impression that thus far JM has not said anything to the police, or at least nothing was reported on what he has said about the events of that evening.

 

[Bravo]

I cant help but wonder if LE did find some DNA, hair etc. and it was in the trunk. No way around that for JM. IMO

 

[HokieBird]

I read something like that (about JM saying he bought HG drinks and then they went their separate ways), but what I read was that this is what JM told his mother, as told by JM's grandmother (per the Daily Mail report). I missed that this is also what he admitted to the police. Can someone share a link to that? I was under the impression that thus far JM has not said anything to the police, or at least nothing was reported on what he has said about the events of that evening.

I don't think the police have ever said if he has said anything to them or not. It's amazing how much info is on this site and stated as 'fact' when it's just someone picking up an opinion from someone else or mis-quoting or mis-interpreting a newspaper article.

 

[Miziree]

Those pictures of her in the hallway was at 9:30 pm on her way to go out before meeting friends. In this article below, the police say she was drinking heavily with friends and was fairly well intoxicated.

http://www.abc19.tv/cellphone-recor...niversity-of-virginia-students-disappearance/

Ive been wondering if they have more video of them after the Tempo. Possibly of them going around a corner and then the car drives off in camera view. If they did have video of the car driving off maybe it was not high quailty and it looked like 2 people in the car. They were not positive it was her and that was why they wanted people to come forward if they seen her getting in the car with him. Then with no more video of Hannah on any other roads or leaving the mall area, Maybe that was how they got the warrant to search his car. MOO

One statement I keep reading over and over in our threads is that Hannah was drunk. Some say drunk out of her mind but mostly it seems everyone agrees Hannah was drunk. I can't find any facts that say Hannah was drunk before or after she made it to Tempo. One eyewitness is reported as saying they saw her at Tempo and she seemed drunk. There is only one MSM report that I've seen of anyone who was with Hannah before she left and headed downtown was from a male friend who says Hannah was at the party for 25-35 minutes, said she was leaving, he offered to walk her and she declined. He does not say Hannah was drunk. I have seen 2 hallway shots of Hannah before she walked downtown and she does not look drunk to me, I don't think I can tell how sober she is at this time. Chief Longo has stated in two press conferences that Hannah walked with a purpose when she came on the mall. Although some of the video scenes look like Hannah and JM are together walking it is possible they are just walking together while passing the cameras. Her stop outside Tempo could have been to get closer to other people. Hannah and JM are witnessed by a few people leaving Tempo together, it's been said JM had his arm around her and was "helping" her walk. There are a multitude of reasons he could be helping her walk besides Hannah was drunk, one is he could have walked up to her nicely punched her in her side, grabbed her around the waist and told her to walk and not make a sound, all in less than 2 seconds, seriously. I am not saying this is what probably happened, I am just saying there is no proof Hannnah was drunk at all that night let alone still drunk hours after anyone has seen her drink at the party she attended for less than an hour. I don't think we should assume Hannah was drunk with the facts that we have been given so far. Her abduction seems swift and possibly somewhat in the open to me.