Good thinking, hey-Debbie. I even made a couple posts last week regarding the same thought. It's obvious LE/prosecutor needs their testimonies as 2 people have already testified at court proceedings last week.
The Burglary and the Jacket
- Thread starter Hoosgirl
- Start date
Good thinking, hey-Debbie. I even made a couple posts last week regarding the same thought. It's obvious LE/prosecutor needs their testimonies as 2 people have already testified at court proceedings last week.
http://hamptonroads.com/2015/05/hadsell-case-norfolk-tied-breakin-moves-forward
Joshua Campbell, AJ Hadsell's boyfriend, testified that during a conversation on March 5, Wesley Hadsell asked where Corey French lived, the layout of French's home and Campbell's opinion of him. French is Spilsbury's son, and Campbell and French knew one another.
On March 6, Campbell testified, he got a call from Hadsell, who said he was at French's house and was "going to take a look."
Later that day, Campbell said, he got a text from Hadsell that read, "We have a problem."
What some of these witnesses may not realize, is LE I'm quite sure has access to ALL phone records, texts, etc so a lot of what they are testifying to in court to can or cannot be backed up by those phone records.
Joshua Campbell, AJ Hadsell's boyfriend, testified that during a conversation on March 5, Wesley Hadsell asked where Corey French lived, the layout of French's home and Campbell's opinion of him. French is Spilsbury's son, and Campbell and French knew one another.
On March 6, Campbell testified, he got a call from Hadsell, who said he was at French's house and was "going to take a look."
Later that day, Campbell said, he got a text from Hadsell that read, "We have a problem."
What some of these witnesses may not realize, is LE I'm quite sure has access to ALL phone records, texts, etc so a lot of what they are testifying to in court to can or cannot be backed up by those phone records.
Mountain_Kat
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JH is not one of the four witnesses. All four were "guys" and all four were AJ's friends.
http://wavy.com/2015/03/23/video-jailhouse-interview-with-wesley-hadsell/
hey-Debbie
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Thanks. I watched that so long ago that I forgot or missed that. In my opinion, I can't believe it was just those guys that knew he went into that house and that no one else knew.
http://hamptonroads.com/2015/05/hadsell-case-norfolk-tied-breakin-moves-forward
Joshua Campbell, AJ Hadsell's boyfriend, testified ...
Andre Barr, a friend of AJ Hadsell's who testified...
Spilsbury testified ...
Detective David Benjamin testified ...
Joshua Campbell, AJ Hadsell's boyfriend, testified ...
Andre Barr, a friend of AJ Hadsell's who testified...
Spilsbury testified ...
Detective David Benjamin testified ...
http://hamptonroads.com/2015/03/stepfather-missing-norfolk-18yearold-denied-bond
BBM:
Coleman said Hadsell - who has "Game Over" tattooed on his eyelids - was estranged from his wife at the time of his arrest and had been for "weeks." Coleman did not say whether the estrangement occurred before or after AJ's disappearance. She said he was living in a hotel room, where police later found a scale with possible cocaine residue on it and 75 rounds of ammunition hidden in an air conditioning vent.
Norfolk police have conducted at least two searches while investigating the disappearance of the Granby High School graduate - first on March 11 at Northside Park in Norfolk and later on March 21 in a swampy, wooded area along Battlefield Boulevard in Chesapeake.
The second search occurred the same day Wesley Hadsell was arrested.
Police have declined to say whether Hadsell is a suspect in his stepdaughter's disappearance. A department spokesman has said that detectives have not ruled out any possibilities.
So, the second search, along Battlefield Boulevard, occurred the same day Wesley was arrested??
Isn't this the same place where clothes were scattered that WH and crew (alleged to be AJ's friends) reported finding clothing items? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
BBM:
Coleman said Hadsell - who has "Game Over" tattooed on his eyelids - was estranged from his wife at the time of his arrest and had been for "weeks." Coleman did not say whether the estrangement occurred before or after AJ's disappearance. She said he was living in a hotel room, where police later found a scale with possible cocaine residue on it and 75 rounds of ammunition hidden in an air conditioning vent.
Norfolk police have conducted at least two searches while investigating the disappearance of the Granby High School graduate - first on March 11 at Northside Park in Norfolk and later on March 21 in a swampy, wooded area along Battlefield Boulevard in Chesapeake.
The second search occurred the same day Wesley Hadsell was arrested.
Police have declined to say whether Hadsell is a suspect in his stepdaughter's disappearance. A department spokesman has said that detectives have not ruled out any possibilities.
So, the second search, along Battlefield Boulevard, occurred the same day Wesley was arrested??
Isn't this the same place where clothes were scattered that WH and crew (alleged to be AJ's friends) reported finding clothing items? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
http://wavy.com/2015/03/21/crews-search-for-missing-teen-anjelica-hadsell-in-chesapeake/
BBM:
CHESAPEAKE, Va. (WAVY) — Search and rescue crews are looking for missing 18-year-old Anjelica “AJ” Hadsell near a heavily wooded and marshy area off South Battlefield Boulevard in Chesapeake.
A spokesman with the Norfolk Police Department tells WAVY.com investigators are following a tip they received regarding Hadsell’s disappearance.
Police started searching up and down South Battlefield Boulevard Thursday evening, according to neighbors.
“Throughout the week the investigation led us to this area,” Officer Sam Shenouda of the Norfolk Police Department said. “However we began our search here [Saturday] morning.”
Family and friends of Hadsell tell 10 On Your Side they started searching the area around 5 p.m. March 19 after they got a tip about clothing on the side of the road. They say they found at least four items they believe belong to Hadsell and notified police.
A person working in the area who did not want their workplace identified tells 10 On Your Side detectives with the Norfolk Police Department were back in the area Friday morning and requested surveillance video from the business.
BBM:
CHESAPEAKE, Va. (WAVY) — Search and rescue crews are looking for missing 18-year-old Anjelica “AJ” Hadsell near a heavily wooded and marshy area off South Battlefield Boulevard in Chesapeake.
A spokesman with the Norfolk Police Department tells WAVY.com investigators are following a tip they received regarding Hadsell’s disappearance.
Police started searching up and down South Battlefield Boulevard Thursday evening, according to neighbors.
“Throughout the week the investigation led us to this area,” Officer Sam Shenouda of the Norfolk Police Department said. “However we began our search here [Saturday] morning.”
Family and friends of Hadsell tell 10 On Your Side they started searching the area around 5 p.m. March 19 after they got a tip about clothing on the side of the road. They say they found at least four items they believe belong to Hadsell and notified police.
A person working in the area who did not want their workplace identified tells 10 On Your Side detectives with the Norfolk Police Department were back in the area Friday morning and requested surveillance video from the business.
Ontario Mom
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I can't find the article right now but in one of them, one of the "friends" (yeah, great friends, I bet AJ would be so proud) mentioned that WH told them if they said anything, they'd be "dealt with". Obviously they went along with him at first, but after a while I suspect that it's entirely possible they did begin to fear that he actually did kill AJ. If that's what they were thinking, it certainly doesn't take a rocket scientist to conclude what "dealt with" could have meant.
JMO.
Wesley has been in AJ's life for what, approximately 5 years now? These guys are so-called close friends of AJ's so I'm guessing they have been around Wesley quite a bit over the course of the past 5 years? Right? And I find it hard to believe that during that approximately 5-year time-frame, that the "close friends" did not know anything about WH's alleged claims of belonging to his brotherhood? But wait, isn't that what the eyelid tattoos are assumed to be related to? It's hard to miss those eyelid tattoos. Wouldn't a conversation ever arise along the lines of for example - what do those eyelid tattoos mean? Why do you have those, Wesley? They must have suddenly became scared of him...sometime suddenly between March 2 or 3 up to and/or including around March 20th area. But not scared enough up until then obviously because they participated in the searches with Wesley, they participated in the playing "the jacket" game, Andre was present at the hotel and saw Wesley stashing his ammo, but yet not too scared now at the current time obviously as it's been reported by MSM that Andre lives in the house now? Oh, wait, that's right, they might be there for protection. LOL @ that one, IMO.
arkansasmimi
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Preliminary hearing - In felony cases, after an advisement, the next step is a preliminary hearing. This is like a mini-trial that takes place in the General District Court. Click here for information about the different levels of courts in Virginia. At the preliminary hearing, the prosecution has to put on enough evidence to show probable cause that the defendant is guilty. This is the same standard that the police have to have to make the arrest in the first place. If the General District Court Judge finds that there is probable cause to believe that the defendant committed the offense, he will `certify` the case to the Grand Jury, which means that he will allow the case to go forward to the Grand Jury.
Indictment and Grand Jury - Once every two months, a Grand Jury convenes at the Circuit Court house, and they consider indictments that have been prepared by the Commonwealth`s Attorney`s office. Most of these indictments will be in cases where there was a preliminary hearing and the General District Court certified the charge(s). But, even if there was a preliminary hearing and the General District Court dismissed the charges, the Commonwealth`s Attorney can still prepare an indictment and put it before the Grand Jury. The Commonwealth`s attorney can also ask the Grand Jury to return indictments for charges that never had a preliminary hearing. This is called a direct indictment.If this part of the process seems odd, it should. You can click here for more discussion about Preliminary Hearings and Direct Indictments.
If the Grand Jurors find that the indictment is a "true bill," the indictment issues and the case moves forward, except now in Circuit Court. http://williamhendricks.org/article_details.php?article=7
*****************************
**trial is set for 3 hours**
Case Number:
CR15001178-00
Filed: 05/12/2015 Commenced by: Indictment Locality: COMMONWEALTH OF VA
Defendant: HADSELL, WESLEY
Charge: OBSTRUCT JUSTICE Code Section: c18.2-460 Charge Type: Felony Class:5 Offense Date: 03/06/2015 Arrest Date: 03/21/2015
Case Number:
CR15001178-01
Filed: 05/12/2015 Commenced by: Indictment Locality: COMMONWEALTH OF VA
Defendant: HADSELL, WESLEY
Charge: OBSTRUCT JUSTICE Code Section: 18.2-460 Charge Type: Felony Class: 5 Offense Date: 03/06/2015 Arrest Date: 03/21/2015
Case Number:
CR15001178-02
Filed:05/12/2015 Commenced by: Indictment Locality: COMMONWEALTH OF VA
Defendant: HADSELL, WESLEY
Charge: OBSTRUCT JUSTICE Code Section: 18.2-460 Charge Type: Felony Class: 5 Offense Date: 03/06/2015 Arrest Date: 03/21/2015
Case Number:
CR15001178-03
Filed: 05/12/2015 Commenced by: Indictment Locality: COMMONWEALTH OF VA
Defendant: HADSELL, WESLEY Charge: OBSTRUCT JUSTICE Code Section: 18.2-460 Charge Type: Felony Class: 5 Offense Date: 03/06/2015 Arrest Date: 03/21/2015
Case Number:
CR15001178-04 Filed: 05/12/2015 Commenced by: Indictment Locality: COMMONWEALTH OF VA
Defendant: HADSELL, WESLEY
Charge: POSS AMMO BY CONV FELON Code Section: 18.2-308.2 Charge Type: Felony Class: 6 Offense Date: 03/06/2015 Arrest Date: 03/21/2015
Case Number:
CR15001178-05
Filed: 05/20/2015 Commenced by: Direct Indictment Locality: COMMONWEALTH OF VA
Defendant: HADSELL, WESLEY
Charge: STATUTORY BURGLARY Code Section: 18.2-92 Charge Type: Felony Class: 6 Offense Date: 03/06/2015 Arrest Date:
http://ewsocis1.courts.state.va.us/CJISWeb/Search.do
Indictment and Grand Jury - Once every two months, a Grand Jury convenes at the Circuit Court house, and they consider indictments that have been prepared by the Commonwealth`s Attorney`s office. Most of these indictments will be in cases where there was a preliminary hearing and the General District Court certified the charge(s). But, even if there was a preliminary hearing and the General District Court dismissed the charges, the Commonwealth`s Attorney can still prepare an indictment and put it before the Grand Jury. The Commonwealth`s attorney can also ask the Grand Jury to return indictments for charges that never had a preliminary hearing. This is called a direct indictment.If this part of the process seems odd, it should. You can click here for more discussion about Preliminary Hearings and Direct Indictments.
If the Grand Jurors find that the indictment is a "true bill," the indictment issues and the case moves forward, except now in Circuit Court. http://williamhendricks.org/article_details.php?article=7
*****************************
**trial is set for 3 hours**
Case Number:
CR15001178-00
Filed: 05/12/2015 Commenced by: Indictment Locality: COMMONWEALTH OF VA
Defendant: HADSELL, WESLEY
Charge: OBSTRUCT JUSTICE Code Section: c18.2-460 Charge Type: Felony Class:5 Offense Date: 03/06/2015 Arrest Date: 03/21/2015
Case Number:
CR15001178-01
Filed: 05/12/2015 Commenced by: Indictment Locality: COMMONWEALTH OF VA
Defendant: HADSELL, WESLEY
Charge: OBSTRUCT JUSTICE Code Section: 18.2-460 Charge Type: Felony Class: 5 Offense Date: 03/06/2015 Arrest Date: 03/21/2015
Case Number:
CR15001178-02
Filed:05/12/2015 Commenced by: Indictment Locality: COMMONWEALTH OF VA
Defendant: HADSELL, WESLEY
Charge: OBSTRUCT JUSTICE Code Section: 18.2-460 Charge Type: Felony Class: 5 Offense Date: 03/06/2015 Arrest Date: 03/21/2015
Case Number:
CR15001178-03
Filed: 05/12/2015 Commenced by: Indictment Locality: COMMONWEALTH OF VA
Defendant: HADSELL, WESLEY Charge: OBSTRUCT JUSTICE Code Section: 18.2-460 Charge Type: Felony Class: 5 Offense Date: 03/06/2015 Arrest Date: 03/21/2015
Case Number:
CR15001178-04 Filed: 05/12/2015 Commenced by: Indictment Locality: COMMONWEALTH OF VA
Defendant: HADSELL, WESLEY
Charge: POSS AMMO BY CONV FELON Code Section: 18.2-308.2 Charge Type: Felony Class: 6 Offense Date: 03/06/2015 Arrest Date: 03/21/2015
Case Number:
CR15001178-05
Filed: 05/20/2015 Commenced by: Direct Indictment Locality: COMMONWEALTH OF VA
Defendant: HADSELL, WESLEY
Charge: STATUTORY BURGLARY Code Section: 18.2-92 Charge Type: Felony Class: 6 Offense Date: 03/06/2015 Arrest Date:
http://ewsocis1.courts.state.va.us/CJISWeb/Search.do
Mountain_Kat
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I agree with you...I think others knew. I just don't think they actively participated.
Mountain_Kat
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And the other two witnesses, those connected with two of the four obstruction of justice charges, didn't appear in court to testify at all. Which I find VERY curious. Perhaps their testimony wasn't needed at this time, but that seems unlikely to me. Perhaps they lawyered up. I dunno.
arkansasmimi
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bbm
I haven't seen that school name before (Granby) I have seen : Anjelica Hadsell 2014 graduate of Norview High School in Norfolk, VA.
I went and looked back at Elizabella's timeline https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_f208X9VhEZREZJN0wzNVpkOGM/view?usp=sharing
Which has March 12, 12:20am, Police receive tip linking AJ to Northside Park at 8400 Tidewater Dr. Police perform search and nothing was reportedly found. Both could be correct I guess but so confusing on the dates in this whole case.
I guess that this was not considered a search in AJ case, few days prior to the Northside Park search
Something else I didn't realize, again per the timeline linked, On Saturday, March 7th 5:09pm, The BAJH Facebook shares a post from March 6th that the reward is currently set at $500. Sunday, March 8th 3:26pm JH posts a picture of a flyer on Facebook that she claims contains incorrect information, and asks the public to remove these flyers if they are spotted. It is later discovered that these flyers were posted by AJ's former step-father. The reward listed on the flyer was $25,000.
So did the $25,000 flyer receive any hits? or even after it was lowered to $10,000 and AJ parents reward raised to $3,000 iirc the highest amount was. If so, were any of those tips shared with the family? Zach said he spoke with LEO few times so I feel sure he shared with LEO if so.
Ontario Mom
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Going back to the idea (can't recall now where I read it, here somewhere in the threads) that it was JH that told WH initially that AJ's jacket was at CF's house. Here's what WH actually said in that interview about the jacket and JH:
At least in this interview, JH did not tell WH the jacket was there (before he broke into the house), she told him that LE had told HER, the jacket was there after they searched the house.
If we're to believe WH, that is.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1025uXR2A4W5cOl08c74yyTAfnP2z2upQdFdywZTtyEw/edit
At least in this interview, JH did not tell WH the jacket was there (before he broke into the house), she told him that LE had told HER, the jacket was there after they searched the house.
If we're to believe WH, that is.
Ontario Mom
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Going back to that first weekend AJ was missing and the flyer nonsense and the break-in and the jacket...
Kind of hard to believe that was already 2.5 months ago
I do find it interesting though that it was only after the jacket/break-in incident that all the nonsense about the flyers began. I did follow that on sm as it was happening and did see both original flyers. The Hadsell flyer changed many many times from the original but this one is the one they were printing off by the thousands and featured on WAVY's very first report:
Shown at the :36 mark of this newscast http://wavy.com/2015/03/04/norfolk-detectives-search-for-missing-18-year-old/ (also here: https://www.facebook.com/bringajhom...41828.793056607449236/793209794100584/?type=1)
By contrast, this was Zach's flyer (first version and second version after the reward was lowered), posted in numerous places in social media:
Also posted here https://www.facebook.com/bringajhom...0.1432555272./797598310328399/?type=3&theater on the BAJHFB page with the claim that the person who created the flier was "interfering with the investigation". They REALLY made a big deal out of not wanting that flier posted anywhere, and encouraged people to rip them down if they saw them.
The very first thing that stood out to me during all that flap about the "wrong fliers, take them down!" nonsense was:
Zach was asking people to call LE. JH and WH were asking people to call THEM. The NPD number wasn't even on the Hadsell fliers, originally.
If you follow the photo timeline on that page you'll see they were still posting that flier (without the NPD phone number, just theirs) on 3/23 then by 3/27 Wes' number was removed and the NPD number was finally added. Other fliers were made as well (by whom, I can't say) but this is the one they promoted most, in those first few weeks.
It stood out to me then and it still stands out to me now, especially knowing now what we know about the break in at CF's house and how at least 4 friends of AJ's knew all about it, all along.
hey-Debbie
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Going back to this one about the jacket having her initials on it. I would think that would be something that wouldn't be disclosed to anyone at that point in the investigation whether it had initials on it or not. IMO that would be something that LE would keep to their own because of details of whether she was REALLY wearing that jacket and the initial thing would directly be related to her revealing that only the people that saw that jacket in the kids house would know those details and of course the killer or the person that placed it there.
Do you really think that the cops would have told JH those intimate details about the jacket or was it WH himself that ratted himself out by giving those details? Like a killer that knows what kind of fatal wound a victim had without the news or LE ever revealing it publicly. If the killer mentions a stabbing and that is how they died but that info was never released to anyone by LE. That person just told on themselves.
hey-Debbie
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Going back to that first weekend AJ was missing and the flyer nonsense and the break-in and the jacket...
Kind of hard to believe that was already 2.5 months ago
View attachment 75212
Shown at the :36 mark of this newscast http://wavy.com/2015/03/04/norfolk-detectives-search-for-missing-18-year-old/ (also here: https://www.facebook.com/bringajhom...41828.793056607449236/793209794100584/?type=1)
By contrast, this was Zach's flyer (first version and second version after the reward was lowered), posted in numerous places in social media:
View attachment 75213
Also posted here https://www.facebook.com/bringajhom...0.1432555272./797598310328399/?type=3&theater on the BAJHFB page with the claim that the person who created the flier was "interfering with the investigation". They REALLY made a big deal out of not wanting that flier posted anywhere, and encouraged people to rip them down if they saw them.
The very first thing that stood out to me during all that flap about the "wrong fliers, take them down!" nonsense was:
Zach was asking people to call LE. JH and WH were asking people to call THEM. The NPD number wasn't even on the Hadsell fliers, originally.
If you follow the photo timeline on that page you'll see they were still posting that flier (without the NPD phone number, just theirs) on 3/23 then by 3/27 Wes' number was removed and the NPD number was finally added. Other fliers were made as well (by whom, I can't say) but this is the one they promoted most, in those first few weeks.
It stood out to me then and it still stands out to me now, especially knowing now what we know about the break in at CF's house and how at least 4 friends of AJ's knew all about it, all along.
I remember this well. I always thought, IMO, that it was an attempt to control the flow of information and details themselves and determine what would be passed on to LE or kept for themselves. Hence the way that WH always said the way that tips came in. Wasn't the only tip that was really called into LE was the one that turned out to be a fake tip the one that was called in by AB? All the others WH said came for their own sources.
Mountain_Kat
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You make a good point, Debbie. What I find interesting is that the only 2 people who we know certain saw this Longwood jacket with AJ's name on it, were Wesley Hadsell and Andre Barr. http://wtkr.com/2015/05/11/judge-di...ey-hadsell-four-others-will-go-to-grand-jury/ I do think it's probable that either WH or AB told JH about the finding of the jacket, but I don't know for a fact that LE told JH about it. Perhaps they did, perhaps they didn't. But it's important to note that when WH discusses the finding of the jacket, he says that when he told LE that JH mentioned that AJ's jacket was found in the home, LE would neither confirm nor deny that this was AJ's Longwood jacket. Remember, at this point, LE doesn't know about the break in and the "bringing evidence to light" plot. Listen to what WH says.
"let's just say I asked, they showed me a few pictures of what was found, I really couldn't tell if it was my daughter's stuff. it was just generic stuff that could have been anybody's. But they didn't show me a picture of the jacket. I said: wait a minute, my wife told me you found my daughter's jacket. "okay well" (the cops said) "we don't know". I said, what do you mean you don't know? It's a Longwood softball jacket with her name stenciled into it. The cops said "we can't verify it's hers".
Clearly, at this point, LE isn't willing to give WH anything to use later in terms of how he might KNOW this was AJ's Longwood jacket. And this pisses WH off.
"I don't know where he was going because I cut him off. I don't have patience anymore. You mean to tell me a POI could have bought a Longwood softball jacket, and had her name stenciled into it? Because of what reason? he just calmed me down - "handled me", that's what I call it."
katydid23
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You make a great case for it, but I am still on the fence about the 'validity' of it being AJ's jacket. :fence:
CF's mom mentions a jacket that belonged to CF's girlfriend. Could she have had a similar jacket, and WH, being a forger and a con man, simply added AJ's initials to it? If so, then all the other things that you described would still be possible. The friends WOULD be upset because they would believe it was her jacket.
When Wes describes his conversation with LE about the jacket, it is very revealing, imo. Because right when th detective said "we cannot verify it is hers BECAUSE"... WES CUTS HIM OFF. :facepalm: What desperate parent of a missing child would cut off such important information as that?
If Wes TRULY believed he had found her jacket, which proves that CF was the guilty party, why wouldn't he listen to the detectives explanation?
I think Wes broke in, looking to implicate CF somehow. And he saw a girls athletic jacket and wrote AJ on it. JMO
IF that had really been AJ's missing jacket, imo, there would have been arrests already. CF would not have been allowed to leavetown if that was really the jacket of a missing girl. JMO
And if they thought that Wes had planted the REAL jacket, he would be charged with murder, not B and E, imo.
Mountain_Kat
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BBM
Just a few comments.
1. Let's assume, for the moment, that this was AJ's Longwood jacket, and that WH brought that jacket into the house WITH him when he broke in. How would RS know anything at all about that jacket? Of course she had never seen AJ's Longwood jacket at her home, because it had never BEEN there prior to March 6. So when asked about AJ's jacket being found in the house, it would seem a natural response, imo, for RS to say, "The only jacket I know about in the house is CF's girlfriend's jacket."
2. Let's continue, for the moment, to assume that this was AJ's Longwood jacket found in CF's home. Who would LE arrest for that? If LE believes that Wesley Hadsell planted that jacket, would they arrest CF? Even if there is not one other piece of evidence against him? If LE believed that Wesley Hadsell broke into CF home and planted that jacket, would they be able to arrest him for AJ's murder on that evidence alone? His fingerprints and DNA could be all over that jacket...so what? He admitted to having his hands all over the damned thing during this "bringing the evidence to light" bs.
3. Again, a witness, under oath, in a court of law, testified that this was, in fact, AJ's Longwood jacket that was found in the home. This is the witness who "found" the jacket, and he was a longtime friend of AJ's. He had no doubt seen that jacket several times. He doesn't testify that he saw a random girl's jacket, he doesn't testify that he saw some jacket with AJ's name drawn on it...he testified that he found AJ's Longwood jacket. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...why would anyone need to assume that it's really a horse that someone stuck a bill and webbed feet on?