The HW or WH belt evidence at gilgonews

[Sleuth_Noob]

I don't believe they were transported in haste. It was a desolate stretch of road, with a roadside thicket that is filled with poison ivy.

It was the perfect spot for a quick "stop and drop". The burlap was probably used to contain the remains and help them blend in with the thick undergrowth.

There is nothing to suggest that he transported them there at the same time. The most likely explanation is that he realized it was the perfect dumping ground and continued using it.

It was pure luck that they were found as soon as they were. If the cadaver dog wasn't brought down Ocean Parkway, it probably would have been 2019 before they were found (the year when the greenway was built).

Those are all good points. There is a lot that we don’t know for sure…

But we do know that the belt was left there intentionally, in the same way that the bodies were left there (intentionally). And yes, the bodies were not necessarily—most likely not—dropped all at the same time.

Former SCPD Police head Dormer had said that police believed that the killer had spent considerable time with the bodies (after death) at an unknown location (not Ocean Pkwy, which was used as a dumping grounds for the bodies, presumably by the killer).

The manner in which the bodies were moved from the unknown location to Ocean Pkwy. is also unknown. But it’s possible that one (or more) of the bodies had to be moved from the original unknown location to Ocean Pkwy. sooner than the killer may have planned for some reason (unexpected visit from out of town relatives?).

 

[LR1]

Here's the dialogue pertaining to spending time with the bodies.

Dormer - Aggressive acts prior to the death. And we know that this guy was involved with aggression. We have some information that shows he was very aggressive person and hiding the body is part of it. Now he obviously hid the bodies by.... (Host interrupts)

Host - Let me stop you there, when you say aggressive before committing the act of homicide, what do you mean by aggressive?

Dormer - Well some information that we have, and I can't divulge the information that we have from the forensics and from the medical examiner, but it will indicate that uh he spent some time with the bodies, and he hides the bodies, now...(Host interrupts)

Host - Spent some time with the bodies anti-mortem, post-mortem, both?

Dormer - both... possibly before too. Uh, this is not uncommon where they play with the victim. This is how they get their gratification. Their sexual gratification is from their power over the victim.

Host - Right but what you are saying, and you can't divulge specifics but what you are saying is that the victims of the Gilgo beach serial killer were tortured...(Dormer interrupts)

Dormer - I'm not going to say that Mike.

Host - Well it's a conclusion I could draw because saying if he spent time with them I just uh...

Dormer - Well this is common with serial killers and there's indications that this may have occurred in the Gilgo beach murders. I'm not going to go into any details, obviously we can't divulge information that the homicide squad has, again, it's not just bringing somebody into your web and killing them immediately and disposing of the body.

And looking at past history of serial killers they get their gratification from spending time with the victim and so that's not uncommon. In fact that's where they get their pleasure from and they become addicted to that. We believe that this guy is addicted to killing prostitutes and he may be continuing to do that today. By the way I should mention that hiding the body is part of that.

 

[Sleuth_Noob]

Here's the dialogue pertaining to spending time with the bodies.

Dormer - Aggressive acts prior to the death. And we know that this guy was involved with aggression. We have some information that shows he was very aggressive person and hiding the body is part of it. Now he obviously hid the bodies by.... (Host interrupts)

Host - Let me stop you there, when you say aggressive before committing the act of homicide, what do you mean by aggressive?

Dormer - Well some information that we have, and I can't divulge the information that we have from the forensics and from the medical examiner, but it will indicate that uh he spent some time with the bodies, and he hides the bodies, now...(Host interrupts)

Host - Spent some time with the bodies anti-mortem, post-mortem, both?

Dormer - both... possibly before too. Uh, this is not uncommon where they play with the victim. This is how they get their gratification. Their sexual gratification is from their power over the victim.

Host - Right but what you are saying, and you can't divulge specifics but what you are saying is that the victims of the Gilgo beach serial killer were tortured...(Dormer interrupts)

Dormer - I'm not going to say that Mike.

Host - Well it's a conclusion I could draw because saying if he spent time with them I just uh...

Dormer - Well this is common with serial killers and there's indications that this may have occurred in the Gilgo beach murders. I'm not going to go into any details, obviously we can't divulge information that the homicide squad has, again, it's not just bringing somebody into your web and killing them immediately and disposing of the body.

And looking at past history of serial killers they get their gratification from spending time with the victim and so that's not uncommon. In fact that's where they get their pleasure from and they become addicted to that. We believe that this guy is addicted to killing prostitutes and he may be continuing to do that today. By the way I should mention that hiding the body is part of that.

Yes, that is exactly what I was referring to.
Thanks for posting…

 

[Sleuth_Noob]

Yes, that is exactly what I was referring to.
Thanks for posting…

So I think that it’s worth pointing out again re: the belt: the belt has been noticeably absent from SCPD’s more recent strategy of full disclosure/transparency re: release of more detailed information pertaining to the investigation in attempt to obtain new leads/information from the public.

The belt’s absence is significant because it is one of only a handful of pieces of physical evidence that SCPD has gone on record about as being in their possession, and yet we have never actually seen it (other than the blown up images of the etched initials in the belt). It was never physically presented, and when the images of the belt were presented at a press conference, it was accompanied with ‘we are not going to answer questions about the belt, other than to say it was found on Ocean pkwy. w. one of the victims and we believe it was handled by the suspect…and we think now is the right time to release these images in an appeal to the public for new leads etc.’

Doesn’t anyone else find it strange then that the belt has been left out re: SCPD’s newer approach to transparency?

 

[LR1]

Doesn’t anyone else find it strange then that the belt has been left out re: SCPD’s newer approach to transparency?

Not really, I mean it's out there and so are the initals which are somewhat unique and are what would possibly be be recognised if seen by the right person. I'm not sure why the buckle is not being shown if one exists. I'm wondering if the belt being at the scene is what the chief was referring to when he talks about the hiding of the body being part of the aggression shown. He refers to that no less than three times there. The interruptions in that series are annoying and I think we might've missed out on a few clues because of them.

 

[Sleuth_Noob]

Not really, I mean it's out there and so are the initals which are somewhat unique and are what would possibly be be recognised if seen by the right person. I'm not sure why the buckle is not being shown if one exists. I'm wondering if the belt being at the scene is what the chief was referring to when he talks about the hiding of the body being part of the aggression shown. He refers to that no less than three times there. The interruptions in that series are annoying and I think we might've missed out on a few clues because of them.

I agree w. you that if the reason for releasing images of the initials on belt was actually w. intent of appealing to public in hopes of someone recognizing it, then that’s that…

But if you are really asking for public’s help, why not show yhe whole belt?

 

[LR1]

I agree w. you that if the reason for releasing images of the initials on belt was actually w. intent of appealing to public in hopes of someone recognizing it, then that’s that…

But if you are really asking for public’s help, why not show yhe whole belt?

I don't think they want to prominently put on display this item that was potentially used to take a life. It's basically a torture device and maybe they're trying to lessen the sensationalism by showing only the relevant parts of it for the families sake, who are no doubt still affected by the whole ordeal.

 

[Sleuth_Noob]

I don't think they want to prominently put on display this item that was potentially used to take a life. It's basically a torture device and maybe they're trying to lessen the sensationalism by showing only the relevant parts of it for the families sake, who are no doubt still affected by the whole ordeal.

Yeah, that makes sense.

 

[stayclassy]

Was the belt found with Maureen?
The issue of burlap?
It can be found at any garden center, including Home Depot and Lowe's.

I might be wrong but I think I read somewhere that the belt was found with Melissa, who was thought to be the 2nd murdered.

I get that burlap is easily found, but I think it's a matter of using something that was convenient to the killer, say in his daily job of landscaping or farming. I doubt someone who throws people away like trash would pay money for something to dispose of their bodies with.

 

[wcasewatch]

I might be wrong but I think I read somewhere that the belt was found with Melissa, who was thought to be the 2nd murdered.

I get that burlap is easily found, but I think it's a matter of using something that was convenient to the killer, say in his daily job of landscaping or farming. I doubt someone who throws people away like trash would pay money for something to dispose of their bodies with.

Just to add, burlap is also used to cure concrete and cement during the summer months. He could have easily taken it from a construction site.

 

[Blunova]

Re: The Lisk belt, can anyone tell from the photos if it is made of genuine or faux/ground/synthetic leather ? Ground leather is made from ground up leather scraps and glue. A belt made from anything other than genuine leather will likely be a cheaper made belt and begs the question of why anyone would bother to have their initials embossed/imprinted on a relatively cheap dress belt. But then maybe the HM (not likely WH) indicates something other than personal initials.

 

[untoldcoldcases]

Do we know which body the belt was found next to? I just want to make sure that it is not the victim's initials and that it does not belong to one of the bodies. It could be used to identify a Jane Doe possibly. I find it odd that he left one belt by one body with all the bodies found out there.

 

[Sleuth_Noob]

Re: The Lisk belt, can anyone tell from the photos if it is made of genuine or faux/ground/synthetic leather ? Ground leather is made from ground up leather scraps and glue. A belt made from anything other than genuine leather will likely be a cheaper made belt and begs the question of why anyone would bother to have their initials embossed/imprinted on a relatively cheap dress belt. But then maybe the HM (not likely WH) indicates something other than personal initials.

SCPD showed the portion of the belt that they wanted to show us. They also made it clear that they weren’t going to provide any additional info, other than what they disclosed. As someone else on this thread pointed out, it is physical evidence that they clearly do not want to highlight, as it could potentially have been used to assault, and possibly murder, one or more of the victims.

Hopefully, it generated a lead or two, although that might not have been the primary reason for sharing the information publicly…we hust don’t know.

 

[hawkshaw]

Nelson DeMille's new book "The Maze" should generate a lot of renewed interest in this case. The first 20 chapters can put you to sleep and then it 'takes off'

 

[Blunova]

One other question here... Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they say the Lisk belt likely belonged to "a heavy set person" ? The belt size should help narrow the girth/physical size/weight of the killer...

 

[Kikimora11]

Just figured this was sort of interesting. I don't think these fonts are identical, but they're pretty close. Perhaps this could at least give a better contextual look at the fonts used in the infamous 'HM/WH' belt. I thought it was pretty cool to find the font family. This one is called 'Growler Font' by SummitSoft Pro. The belt most likely predates any digital font .ttf but I think it's important to be familiar with the font family, just for situational awareness and whatnot. Perhaps this font is used in other places that we are not yet familiar, etc. The distinctive outward bowing (called an "envelope" in type design) is quite notable, especially in characters such as the H.
https://www.whatfontis.com/Growler.font

 

[Bose]

Just figured this was sort of interesting. I don't think these fonts are identical, but they're pretty close. Perhaps this could at least give a better contextual look at the fonts used in the infamous 'HM/WH' belt. I thought it was pretty cool to find the font family. This one is called 'Growler Font' by SummitSoft Pro. The belt most likely predates any digital font .ttf but I think it's important to be familiar with the font family, just for situational awareness and whatnot. Perhaps this font is used in other places that we are not yet familiar, etc. The distinctive outward bowing (called an "envelope" in type design) is quite notable, especially in characters such as the H.
https://www.whatfontis.com/Growler.font

Great job!!! I've never seen a font match so well!!! And, I've never seen that font, to my recollection. Has anyone else? Again, great job @Kikimora11 !

 

[cenazoic]

Great find! Like some others at the beginning of the thread, I thought the letter forms on the belt seemed familiar, but I’ve never been able to identify a source. Frustrating!

The belt most likely predates any digital font .ttf

Just as a side note, digital fonts have existed since the home PCs started becoming a thing in the 1980s (PostScript/OpenFont), and as TrueType (.ttf file type) since 1991.

 

[Kikimora11]

Hi all, Happy New Year, sorry for the late response, been busy for a few weeks here. I wanted to share that I dug a bit further into this font and in fact the site I previously mentioned is wrong. It is not from Summitsoft - the Growler font was from the company Fontworks, which is based in Japan. In doing some simple Google searching, I found out that Fontworks is a rather large Japanese graphics/creative name in Japan, sort of akin to Adobe. Matter of fact, there is even crossover between Adobe and Fontworks. I was able to find the actual .otf font file for Growler, feel free to install it and check it out for yourself, here.

I do caution people that just because this font seems like a match, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's the actual font, nor does it mean that it was even remotely sourced/related/inspired by this font. Perhaps a more likely situation is that, the tool used is in that crescent ( shape. If you take a look at the H it's obviously just two (s and a center line, but what's not so obvious is that the M can be made entirely with (s as well, 4 of them. If you measure the angles and sizing of the (s they do check out as being identical.

So this said, I don't necessarily know what to think of this. However, I do find it very eerie how similar this font is, presumably the belt font and this .otf file are based on the same typefacing technique, that is, how the lettering is made. Further adding to the curiosity here is that there is virtually no information on this Growler font, which, while not necessarily surprising, is quite unusual (I work in production media professionally). In any case, I thought this forum would appreciate this, and perhaps that above Archive.org link will give you some more Fontworks fonts to dig into. One thing I have not done that may be worth doing is to reach out to Fontworks and inquire about any licensing/usage known of this font. They may have no idea, as fonts, especially open source ones, spread freely, but perhaps they would know the original distribution channel of the typefaces, etc. Something I have thought of.

Very happy to be a part of this community, I have been following for many years. Cheers, and talk soon.

 

[Ozoner]

One other question here... Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they say the Lisk belt likely belonged to "a heavy set person" ? The belt size should help narrow the girth/physical size/weight of the killer...

Well, I'm still convinced that John Bittrolff is the LISK, so I don't think that the initials are the killer's initials. If Bittrolff is the killer, then he might have picked up that belt at a resale shop and left it in order to misdirect investigators.