The jonbenet Ramsey letter

[Mlc]

I was reading about another odd event regarding the Ramsey's and something stuck out immediately, JR said the thief wore socks on his hands.

Where would that come from? Could this explain why there were no fingerprints on the ransom note in the JB case?

Here is page 5 of a police report filed in Atlanta, GA in Feb. 2001, detailing an encounter JR had with an apparent burglar in his home, and the socks are mentioned.


This was at the time the Ramseys were facing a several million dollar lawsuit from Steve Thomas, if I recall, and their main lawyer was making the rounds on TV proclaiming their innocence.

They are innocent. Linda Hoffman Pugh orchestrated the kidnapping that turned into a murder. I don’t know who her co-conspirators were. But she absolutely was involved.

 

[layer]

Reality check: for almost 30 years Gary Oliva has been amazed and giggling to himself that everybody and all the media thought the parents did it. He's spent many nights in prison laughing over it. He even left his black backpack there.

As I understand it the unknown male DNA found on Jonbenet's underwear did not match Oliva, so that's a problem. Not an insurmountable problem, but a problem, IMHO.

Does anyone know if they ever attempted a familial DNA search on that sample?

 

[Mlc]

True, there was no proof of an intruder.
If we look closely at the RN, what pops out?

If Gary Oliva wrote the note, how did he know John Ramsey lived there?
How did he know John Ramsey's exact Christmas bonus, which would have been transferred by direct deposit?
How did he know Ramsey had a daughter?
How did he know the Ramseys were "southern?"

Since he didn't bring anything with him to carry out the crime, he would have had to search the house for a pen, paper, duct tape, cordage, and a clean pair of oversized underwear for the body.

Add to that, he would have had to have staked out the Ramsey house, found a broken unlocked window, and navigated a large dark basement with multiple doors and rooms.

Found his way upstairs to the kitchen, where he would spend at least 20 minutes crafting the ransom letter, then find his way upstairs and know where JonBenet's room was from all the other doors.

Remove her from bed, take her downstairs, commit the crime, leave the body behind...then leave by the same means he entered...all with the family at home.

3 Similar pens and a similar notepad, was found at Linda Hoffman Pugh‘s home, because she had stolen them from the Ramsey‘s house. They were similar to the ones that were used to write the ransom including the notepad.

 

[Mlc]

And as far as the ransom note..there were seven fingerprints on it.
2 from police officers and five from Patsy Ramsey.

It was an intruder and not an intruder, because Linda Hoffman Pugh orchestrated the kidnapping that turned into a murder, and it was really all for money.

 

[New Penny]

As a thief, your no1 choice is gloves. If you can't quickly access gloves, a sock will do, but you lose significant grip.
Medical / latex gloves leaves a chance of fingerprints as theyre so thin. I wouldnt feel that I've covered my tracks enough with latex gloves. Plus, they rip easily

Touché’

 

[Mlc]

And as far as the ransom note..there were seven fingerprints on it.
2 from police officers and five from Patsy Ramsey.

Linda Hoffman Pugh, as uneducated as she was, would’ve known to handle the notepad and pens she stole with gloves. Wouldn’t be unusual to see a housekeeper wearing gloves around a home there cleaning. This was Planned but carried out poorly and the result was the Death of JonBenet.

 

[CloudedTruth]

Can someone explain Why Linda Hoffmann Pugh had Stolen Notepads and pens from the Ramseys home? Why she knew the white blanket came from the dryer and that the Barbie nightgown was stuck to it because of static cling? Excerpt from her 1) chapter from the book she wanted to write but couldn’t.
“Patsy You then wrapped her in a favorite white blanket of hers, which you took from the dryer, except her Barbie nightgown was stuck to it because you never did have the sense to throw in a static cling strip with the wash. So you laid the nightie next to her.” How would She know that Boring insignificant detail about the Barbie nightgown that it was stuck to the blanket because of static unless She took the blanket from the dryer that Horrible Night.
Linda Hoffmann Pugh’s last day working was Dec 23rd She helped clean up (Linda also took the paint tote down to the basement)prior to the Ramseys Christmas party on December 23,1996. and her Granddaughter Ariana was with her. Patsy lent her clothes and shoes because the little girl 13 was not dressed for the party. Linda Hoffmann Pugh called out of work for the night of the 24th day before murder. But she knew where JonBenet favorite blanket was?
Linda Hoffmann Pugh said in a statement only Patsy would know where the pocket knife was because she hid it, hmmmm No then 2 people would know the second person being Linda Hoffmann Pugh. She asked for money, she had access, she had the time (she took the 24th off) she has on multiple occasions Slipped up misspoken and her Only Chapter of her book reads like a confession. Why is she always given the benefit of the doubt. The area JonBenet was found in had a safe. It was a kidnapping that turned into a murder orchestrated by LHP.

Why are we assuming the notepads and pens were stolen? Linda worked for the R's, it's entirely possible if PR bought some pads and pens in bulk that she allowed Linda to take some home.

Linda was one of the very first "suspects" that the R's pointed to, because she had a key. Instead of cooperating with the PD and allowing themselves to be questioned in order to be ruled out as suspects, the R's started throwing a lot of people that they knew under the bus. Linda was one of those and she came to resent it. By the time she wrote the book, she was very upset with how she had been treated in the aftermath of JBR's murder.

Initially when interviewed by police, she noted after being shown pictures that the sheets on JBR's bed were not the sheets she had last made the bed up with. She then speculated that JBR must've wet the bed, which of course was a very common occurrence. The blanket was usually on the bed. Whenever JBR wet the bed, PR would immediately change the bedding, and throw the soiled bedding and the blanket into the wash so they wouldn't smell. There was a separate washer and dryer for JBR, something an intruder would not have known. JBR's bedding and her soiled nightwear was pretty much the only laundry that PR did herself. Both the blanket and the nightie were JBR's favorites, although PR tried to downplay the nightie, saying it had no significance. PR's sister and mother spilled the beans that it was her favorite. Barbara Walters pointed out in an interview, that wrapping her in her favorite blanket and having her favorite nightie next to her were something a parent would do, someone who loved her. The basement and in particular the wine cellar room were cold.

Over time, Linda became convinced that PR was the perpetrator. She wasn't the only one. Her comments in the book are speculation based upon her knowledge of how PR did things with regard to JBR's bedding and soiled clothing.

The safe was never used. It was empty. Hardly anyone even knew it was there. Linda was cleared. Even PR at one point, told a police officer that she was "a good, sweet person. She may need the money, but she won't hurt JonBenet". that She loved JBR. She also loved PR but that changed after the murder and when the R's wrote their book and falsely referred to her as a murder suspect.

 

[CloudedTruth]

Linda Hoffman Pugh wrote the ransom letter using lines from certain movies, including “ransom” copying samples of notes that Patsy left her, sprinkled in with phrases that Patsy was known to use.

She was excluded as the writer of the note.

 

[Mlc]

She was excluded as the writer of the note.

Yeah, and Patsy was the only writer when clearly there’s issues with that. she orchestrated who knows in her degenerate family, or any of her degenerate friends that she planned with

 

[CloudedTruth]

What issues?

 

[Mlc]

Why are we assuming the notepads and pens were stolen? Linda worked for the R's, it's entirely possible if PR bought some pads and pens in bulk that she allowed Linda to take some home.

Linda was one of the very first "suspects" that the R's pointed to, because she had a key. Instead of cooperating with the PD and allowing themselves to be questioned in order to be ruled out as suspects, the R's started throwing a lot of people that they knew under the bus. Linda was one of those and she came to resent it. By the time she wrote the book, she was very upset with how she had been treated in the aftermath of JBR's murder.

Initially when interviewed by police, she noted after being shown pictures that the sheets on JBR's bed were not the sheets she had last made the bed up with. She then speculated that JBR must've wet the bed, which of course was a very common occurrence. The blanket was usually on the bed. Whenever JBR wet the bed, PR would immediately change the bedding, and throw the soiled bedding and the blanket into the wash so they wouldn't smell. There was a separate washer and dryer for JBR, something an intruder would not have known. JBR's bedding and her soiled nightwear was pretty much the only laundry that PR did herself. Both the blanket and the nightie were JBR's favorites, although PR tried to downplay the nightie, saying it had no significance. PR's sister and mother spilled the beans that it was her favorite. Barbara Walters pointed out in an interview, that wrapping her in her favorite blanket and having her favorite nightie next to her were something a parent would do, someone who loved her. The basement and in particular the wine cellar room were cold.

Over time, Linda became convinced that PR was the perpetrator. She wasn't the only one. Her comments in the book are speculation based upon her knowledge of how PR did things with regard to JBR's bedding and soiled clothing.

The safe was never used. It was empty. Hardly anyone even knew it was there. Linda was cleared. Even PR at one point, told a police officer that she was "a good, sweet person. She may need the money, but she won't hurt JonBenet". that She loved JBR. She also loved PR but that changed after the murder and when the R's wrote their book and falsely referred to her as a murder suspect.

Linda was the housekeeper she made herself out to be way more than what she was. She was not the Nanny. She was going on tour literally tours after JonBenet’s doing interviews. She’s the only one that said anything mean about JonBenet after she died, called her spoiled brat. She only worked three days a week 9-3 during the week, John was at work. The kids were at school. Patsy was involved in charitable activities in school with the kids. I work in hospice care as a professional you don’t ever take things from anyone’s home let me point out I’ve had clients on hospice that lives longer than 14 months. it’s really not that long and in that time she had five family members (because that’s professional) doing work inside and outside the Ramsey‘s home . She asked for money talk about the audacity of asking your boss for $2000, only being employed for 14 months. she was being evicted by her sister. How was it every time you turned around there she was doing interviews because apparently she became the Queen of the Ramsey story which is really weird because when I want somebody giving me updates I don’t want it to be the housekeeper they’re meant to be unseen. I do work in hospice I don’t get involved with the families matters, make decisions. I give advice sometimes, but I would never ever, ever go into a client home and take anything from their home.

 

[Meara]

I see what you're saying too, and thanks for listening, but I think you're focusing on the wrong areas.

The idea that they washed the blanket and nightgown is cobblers. All of this can be explained by the intruder wearing gloves. And there was indeed a known point of intruder entry - the open basement window with a suitcase under it.
Seems we're too busy looking at Sharpies and flashlights when we should be looking at the fact there was a convicted pedo sex attacker by the name of Gary Oliva sleeping just a few doors away, who also was sneaking into windows with a stun gun.

The IDI percentage will continue to increase, mark my words.

You're welcome.

Hold on. Who said anything about washing the blanket and nightgown?

The fact that there were no Ramsey fingerprints, but there should have been, on the pen, the paint brush, the pad of paper, and the flashlight is not explained entirely by an intruder wearing gloves.

There was no known point of entry, only a possible point, the basement window, which was ruled out by several factors; principally: the absence of shoe prints in the snow by the grate (yes, I'll come back to this), and the thick funnel spider web that could not have been spun again overnight (and this, too, if need be). What's the saying? You're entitled to your own opinion; you're not entitled to your own packing peanuts? Or something like that. Boulder PD screwed up some things. Let's not throw out stuff they got right.

Oliva is a compelling suspect. The problem is - and you know this yourself - there's no way to make the case without hard evidence tying him to the Ramsey home on the night of the murder. Thirteen houses down is still 12 too many. At the same time, ODI must be able to explain its version of events where it conflicts with RDI on key points. Otherwise, the Ramseys will always look guiltier. This sometimes means having to argue about things like pens.

You think Oliva's the killer, and I understand why you do. Your passion and energy are admirable. It seems, though, that you're starting with that conclusion and throwing nets of conjecture toward evidence rather than starting with the evidence, and checking on the totality of it, to see where it leads. That can be exciting, doing it that way. But, when the narrative gets ahead of the whole inquiry, things get ungrounded. Working with the details of all the proverbial Sharpies of the case is a real challenge. It's slow. It's painstaking. It's necessary. And I think it's the right focus.

We disagree. Let’s keep sharing ideas anyway.

 

[Meara]

It is mostly science. People cannot subconsciously erase all of their writing tendencies. These people are trained for which ones are almost impossible to disguise.

Exactly. Well said.

 

[Meara]

Imo, another (better) question that should be asked is why JR would choose to include kidnapping if he was going to stage a coverup, when he knew certain protocols were called for by his job in case of a kidnapping, protocols that he didn't want to follow, as evidenced by the fact that he didn't follow them. Seems like kidnapping would be something he would rule out for this reason, when he was deciding on how to stage the coverup. imo.

It's a very good question. I've given it some thought. Though we don't know exactly what happened, we do know that the circumstances of JBR's death created a set of problems so dire that staging a kidnapping appeared to offer the least hazardous solution. Whether protecting his family, staying out of jail, keeping someone else out of jail, or saving his reputation took priority in his mind, or they all converged, who can say?

I believe JR made phone calls and got advice in the middle of the night. That's why the phone records got wiped. On the basis of that advice, he decided to ignore the Lockheed protocols precisely to delay and reduce the intervention of the FBI. He wanted the small, less experienced Boulder police force in charge (Is that what we've been hearing all these years? The voice of one who doth protest too much?). He may or may not have had his advisor speak with Alex Hunter and/or someone in the state government. I doubt his choices compromised him at Lockheed since they were already redesigning their corporate structure and in the process of selling Access Graphics. He was fine financially. Lockheed, for their part, had nothing to lose by staying in the background and treating him well. They risked blowback if they didn't; plus, they may not have wanted any taint of murder associated with their new image.

I wish I'd had time to read the Lawyering JonBenet thread (yet again) to refine this answer. That thing has so much insider info. Anyway, that's my theory.

 

[sunspun]

investigators found an exact match between the ink in the pen, the ink used in the ransom note

Would that ink also be the same as ink from any other of the same type of pen? Same brand, same version, same tip, etc. would all have the same ink, and there'd be no way to tell which pen of that same type it came from. Yes, it could be an exact match to a pen Patsy normally used, but it should also be an exact match to lots of other pens as well, as long as they were the same type pen.

How many different types of inks could Sharpie pens of all types realistically use?

You might come up with countless exact matches if you were to test the note ink against enough pens of all sorts. Just as one example, I'd guess that more than one pen just in the Ramsey house alone would match. Could easily be more matches in the houses down their street. Sharpie pens are so common, might find one in every house, most all would be black and some fine tip, so some of them would be of the same type the note was written with, and those should also be a match if tested, imo. Again, I certainly see room for reasonable doubt on the pen. Imo, plenty of other, more ironclad bits of evidence pointing to the Ramseys than the pen.

 

[Gunther Toody]

Would that ink also be the same as ink from any other of the same type of pen? Same brand, same version, same tip, etc. would all have the same ink, and there'd be no way to tell which pen of that same type it came from. Yes, it could be an exact match to a pen Patsy normally used, but it should also be an exact match to lots of other pens as well, as long as they were the same type pen.

How many different types of inks could Sharpie pens of all types realistically use?

You might come up with countless exact matches if you were to test the note ink against enough pens of all sorts. Just as one example, I'd guess that more than one pen just in the Ramsey house alone would match. Could easily be more matches in the houses down their street. Sharpie pens are so common, might find one in every house, most all would be black and some fine tip, so some of them would be of the same type the note was written with, and those should also be a match if tested, imo. Again, I certainly see room for reasonable doubt on the pen. Imo, plenty of other, more ironclad bits of evidence pointing to the Ramseys than the pen.

I spent many years in the printing business formulating and using inks.
Inks are blended from a variety of pigments, chemicals, and additives. Then, they are tested, samples are taken, and the finished ink is given a batch number.

This is typically done, in case there are any problems in the future with the finished product.
The company can then refer back to the exact batch and retest for irregularities.

I imagine it's the same circumstances in the ink production from the facility that make the Sharpies and probably why it was specifically able to be identified.

 

[Mlc]

I spent many years in the printing business formulating and using inks.
Inks are blended from a variety of pigments, chemicals, and additives. Then, they are tested, samples are taken, and the finished ink is given a batch number.

This is typically done, in case there are any problems in the future with the finished product.
The company can then refer back to the exact batch and retest for irregularities.

I imagine it's the same circumstances in the ink production from the facility that make the Sharpies and probably why it was specifically able to be identified.

Linda Hoffman Pugh handed over three felt tip pens that were virtually similar to the pens that were used to write the ransom note that included a notepad that was also similar to the notepad used.

 

[CloudedTruth]

Linda Hoffman Pugh handed over three felt tip pens that were virtually similar to the pens that were used to write the ransom note that included a notepad that was also similar to the notepad used.

But the notepad on which the RN was written, as well as the pen with which it was written were in the R house.

 

[CloudedTruth]

Would that ink also be the same as ink from any other of the same type of pen? Same brand, same version, same tip, etc. would all have the same ink, and there'd be no way to tell which pen of that same type it came from. Yes, it could be an exact match to a pen Patsy normally used, but it should also be an exact match to lots of other pens as well, as long as they were the same type pen.

How many different types of inks could Sharpie pens of all types realistically use?

You might come up with countless exact matches if you were to test the note ink against enough pens of all sorts. Just as one example, I'd guess that more than one pen just in the Ramsey house alone would match. Could easily be more matches in the houses down their street. Sharpie pens are so common, might find one in every house, most all would be black and some fine tip, so some of them would be of the same type the note was written with, and those should also be a match if tested, imo. Again, I certainly see room for reasonable doubt on the pen. Imo, plenty of other, more ironclad bits of evidence pointing to the Ramseys than the pen.

Yes, however does it make sense to make everyone who ever owned the same or similar pen a suspect solely based on that ownership? There are reasons specific people become suspects in a given crime, and then investigation either clears them or more evidence to prove their involvement becomes known.

Upon investigation of that specific Sharpie pen, it was discovered that it was no longer in production, that narrows it down. That brand & model did use a specific blend of ink that was identified and confirmed, that narrows it down further. The fact that the note pad proven to be from which the note was written was in the house, along with the same brand and model of pen that it was written with, that's a match.

It's like another case that was in the news, where the body of the deceased was found wrapped in a sheet. The brand, design and make-up of the sheet was identified and it was further identified as being from a set that was owned by the deceased. Of course those sheet sets were manufactured in bulk and sold in stores, so that there were / are other persons who own the same set of sheets. But was that fact a reason for those other sheet set owners to become suspects in the case? No. But it did tie someone who was already a suspect to the case.

 

[Mlc]

Why are we assuming the notepads and pens were stolen? Linda worked for the R's, it's entirely possible if PR bought some pads and pens in bulk that she allowed Linda to take some home.

Linda was one of the very first "suspects" that the R's pointed to, because she had a key. Instead of cooperating with the PD and allowing themselves to be questioned in order to be ruled out as suspects, the R's started throwing a lot of people that they knew under the bus. Linda was one of those and she came to resent it. By the time she wrote the book, she was very upset with how she had been treated in the aftermath of JBR's murder.

Initially when interviewed by police, she noted after being shown pictures that the sheets on JBR's bed were not the sheets she had last made the bed up with. She then speculated that JBR must've wet the bed, which of course was a very common occurrence. The blanket was usually on the bed. Whenever JBR wet the bed, PR would immediately change the bedding, and throw the soiled bedding and the blanket into the wash so they wouldn't smell. There was a separate washer and dryer for JBR, something an intruder would not have known. JBR's bedding and her soiled nightwear was pretty much the only laundry that PR did herself. Both the blanket and the nightie were JBR's favorites, although PR tried to downplay the nightie, saying it had no significance. PR's sister and mother spilled the beans that it was her favorite. Barbara Walters pointed out in an interview, that wrapping her in her favorite blanket and having her favorite nightie next to her were something a parent would do, someone who loved her. The basement and in particular the wine cellar room were cold.

Over time, Linda became convinced that PR was the perpetrator. She wasn't the only one. Her comments in the book are speculation based upon her knowledge of how PR did things with regard to JBR's bedding and soiled clothing.

The safe was never used. It was empty. Hardly anyone even knew it was there. Linda was cleared. Even PR at one point, told a police officer that she was "a good, sweet person. She may need the money, but she won't hurt JonBenet". that She loved JBR. She also loved PR but that changed after the murder and when the R's wrote their book and falsely referred to her as a murder suspect.

Linda Hoffman Pugh was named as a suspect separately by both John and Patsy, and when Patsy made that statement if Linda was involved, “she’d never hurt her I don’t think she’d hurt her” that was made during the time that they thought it was a kidnapping that statement was made by Patsy before JonBenet’s body was found. I think things are different When it changes from a kidnapping to a murder. Linda Hoffmann Pugh’s 1 and only chapter reads like a confession. Linda brings paint tote to basement on the 23rd JonBenet is found near Paint tote, a broken handle of a paint brush used to make the garrote to strangle her and broken wood splinters on carpet with a Urine stain ( most likely the spot JonBenet Died) she released her bladder there in the basement. Not in her bed like Queen Linda Hoffmann Pugh suggested to every one.