The Justice System and KC

[mydailyopinions]

i am glad i provided you with such humor! actually, i hired the defense attorney at the pleading of my parents and my brother's children.

altho, i believed he was guilty of A crime, i wasn't sure if it was THE crime he was charged with. i had hoped his defense attorney would be sure the TRUTH was discovered and my brother was convicted of the crime that he had committed.

i wanted his victim to have justice. that is kinda funny, isn't it? well maybe not funny, but kinda rare.

thanks for the God Bless. My brother died unexpectedly, so depending on who you ask, things did work out for the best.

I am so sorry for the loss of your brother. And I also want to thank you for wanting justice for the victim, even if that implicated your brother.
I wish George, Cindy and Lee felt the same way about Caylee..

 

[tracy87]

Are you saying you only hired a high profile attorney to make sure he knew his rights and act as an advocate?
Did you consider a public defender?

"high profile" was kinda a joke considering the latest write up of JB. but he did come highly reccommended.

due to finances my brother did not qualify for a public defender. kinda complicated, his past year tax return, he had partial ownership of a company, but he was not able to access funds...yada, yada, yada.

 

[JBean]

i am glad i provided you with such humor! actually, i hired the defense attorney at the pleading of my parents and my brother's children.

altho, i believed he was guilty of A crime, i wasn't sure if it was THE crime he was charged with. i had hoped his defense attorney would be sure the TRUTH was discovered and my brother was convicted of the crime that he had committed.

i wanted his victim to have justice. that is kinda funny, isn't it? well maybe not funny, but kinda rare.

thanks for the God Bless. My brother died unexpectedly, so depending on who you ask, things did work out for the best.

oh! So sorry about your brother.:blowkiss:

Your post makes pefect sense and it is along the lines of what I meant. He deserved to have all the rules followed so that he was protected from wrongful prosection of crimes he did not commit. Hopefully, the evidence that "proved" what he was guilty of were collected properly so that justice would be served.

Bringing this back to KC, I feel similarly as you. I am certain she commited a crime and I am hopeful that proper procedure will prove exactly what crime that is.

ETA: I do not think it is rare for a person to want justice for the victim at all. But like you said, you want to make sure that it is fair to all.

 

[tracy87]

It is our right to have an adequate defense. If the evidence was collected properly and no rules were broken, then it should be used against your brother. if the evidence is thrown out, I assume there is a reason for it and it is as it should be.LE needs to follow the rules and if they don't we all suffer.
I want those rules in place if I ever need them, I think most are designed to protect the innocent but it obviously doesn't always work that way.

i completely agree. i will go even a step farther. i believe GUILTY people deserve lawyers. guilty people have rights too. (ewww, i hate saying that). i truly believed my brother was guilty, but i wanted him sentenced fairly.

does that make sense?

 

[JBean]

i completely agree. i will go even a step farther. i believe GUILTY people deserve lawyers. guilty people have rights too. (ewww, i hate saying that). i truly believed my brother was guilty, but i wanted him sentenced fairly.

does that make sense?

yes of course it does and I feel exactly the same.

 

[tracy87]

so yes, i believe kc deserves/needs an attorney to inform her of her rights and to be sure her rights are protected. And to be her advocate.

i also believe she is guilty.

 

[Wudge]

i am glad i provided you with such humor! actually, i hired the defense attorney at the pleading of my parents and my brother's children.

altho, i believed he was guilty of A crime, i wasn't sure if it was THE crime he was charged with. i had hoped his defense attorney would be sure the TRUTH was discovered and my brother was convicted of the crime that he had committed.

i wanted his victim to have justice. that is kinda funny, isn't it? well maybe not funny, but kinda rare.

thanks for the God Bless. My brother died unexpectedly, so depending on who you ask, things did work out for the best.

I'm very sorry to hear that your brother passed on.

What hit my funny bone was your saying that: "I hired the attorney to make sure he was informed of his rights and was getting good advice and to be his "advocate".

However, I think it's fair to say that you expected something a bit different than the feedback (advocacy) you received from the attorney you hired. Yet, in all honesty, that feedback (advocacy) is not out of line with what I would expect from a defense attorney who is truly advocating on behalf of his client -- as it seems you wanted and hired them to do.

I don't know the particulars of the initial conversation you had with the attorney when you hired them, but what I sense you hoped for would not be something that, I believe, most people would expect a defense attorney to bring out in the open or to be responsible for in any way; i.e., getting their client to fess up, stand up and take responsibility for their actions.

FWIW

(God bless you and your family.)

 

[wonders]

(This ........ caused me to laugh until my stomach hurt.)

Trust me. It's not an everyday occurrence that someone hires a defense attorney with the hope they will get their new client to 'fess up'.

(God bless you. I hope things work out for the best, whatever that might be.)

I personally found nothing funny about Tracy87's post. I found Tracy87 to be an honorable person filled with integrity and compassion for a victim.

 

[Wudge]

SNIP

I found Tracy87 to be an honorable person filled with integrity and compassion for a victim.

I agree.

 

[elementary]

I don't think the system is about justice. But I hope that the pursuit of it lies in the hearts of some attorneys and judges. Andrea Lyon, for example, I am sure thinks she is pursuing her version of justice. But then it makes you think, given the idea of that kind of justice, at what cost? If a simple thing like knowing that a convict given life is innocent (not just "not guilty") of murder is not enough of a spur to see justice done, then it makes me question if it's really all about a utilitarian exploitation of rules and regulations and nothing else.

 

[elementary]

I personally found nothing funny about Tracy87's post. I found Tracy87 to be an honorable person filled with integrity and compassion for a victim.

Neither did I. I found it moving. And unusual (in a good way). I didn't find any of it funny. I don't know how anyone could.

 

[Pondering Mind]

thank you wudge and rhornsby. i understand and respect your replies.

recently my brother was accused of a particularly horrible crime. i hired him a "high-profile attorney" (lol) here in ft myers. in my naivety i was searching for the truth. i did not want my brother to "get off', rather i wanted him to take responsibility for his crime if he indeed was guilty. i hired the attorney to make sure he was informed of his rights and was getting good advice and to be his "advocate".

imagine my surprise when the first thing the attorney told me was, do not ask him if he is guilty and i (meaning the atty) will never ask him either. apparently, there was dna evidence, and a taped confession implicating my brother. the atty said, don't worry we are working to get the evidence thrown out. i said, but, but, but....if he committed the crime, he should take responsibility, right?

apparently not.

i know this is way off topic.

but, i just don't understand defense attorneys.

bbm~
( O/T, I know) but often I don't understand either tracy and I am blessed with a wonderful son in law that is one, lol! To be honest while of course he doesn't discuss his cases w/me, but knowing him the way I do, I do believe that he has an internal struggle going on at times regarding some of these very same issues.

btw~I applaud you for trying to make sure that your brother takes responsibility for his actions as painful as I'm sure it is....

 

[tracy87]

there are so many smart legal people on these threads it can be very intimidating to post. i am usually afraid that i will not be able to express myself as well as others.

but let me try:

i understand the need for defense attorneys, and i respect the american justice system. and i have heard all of the arguments. and YES, if i was accused of a crime of course i would want someone to defend me.

but i wonder if defense attorneys ever feel in a small place in their heart/soul a little bit of guilt for winning? if they truly knew their client was guilty, but was able to "win" an acquital because of a legal technicality...is the "win" worth it?

 

[Leila]

thank you wudge and rhornsby. i understand and respect your replies.

recently my brother was accused of a particularly horrible crime. i hired him a "high-profile attorney" (lol) here in ft myers. in my naivety i was searching for the truth. i did not want my brother to "get off', rather i wanted him to take responsibility for his crime if he indeed was guilty. i hired the attorney to make sure he was informed of his rights and was getting good advice and to be his "advocate".

imagine my surprise when the first thing the attorney told me was, do not ask him if he is guilty and i (meaning the atty) will never ask him either. apparently, there was dna evidence, and a taped confession implicating my brother. the atty said, don't worry we are working to get the evidence thrown out. i said, but, but, but....if he committed the crime, he should take responsibility, right?

apparently not.

i know this is way off topic.

but, i just don't understand defense attorneys.

Thanks Tracy. This is one question I have about defense attorneys, and that's the subject of ethics.

All attorneys must work within the law. At what point is it no longer a matter of questionable ethics and instead becomes a crime?

Let me lay out a "what if" type of situation as it pertains to the Casey Anthony case...................

According to Dominic Casey, defense attorney JB, who knew DC was searching the woods off of Suburban for Caylee's remains, told DC that if he found Caylee not to call the police.

For the sake of this "what if" scenario.............what if DC had found Caylee's remains, reported this to JB, and JB failed to report finding Caylee's remains to police.

It would seem to me that this is no longer a matter of questionable ethics, but a crime to withhold evidence from the police. In this case, the remains of Caylee Anthony, would be considered major evidence.

 

[JBean]

there are so many smart legal people on these threads it can be very intimidating to post. i am usually afraid that i will not be able to express myself as well as others.

but let me try:

i understand the need for defense attorneys, and i respect the american justice system. and i have heard all of the arguments. and YES, if i was accused of a crime of course i would want someone to defend me.

but i wonder if defense attorneys ever feel in a small place in their heart/soul a little bit of guilt for winning? if they truly knew their client was guilty, but was able to "win" an acquital because of a legal technicality...is the "win" worth it?

There are only 3 or 4 verified attorneys on the caylee forum (rhhornsby ,azlawyer and impatientredhead off the top of my head) and plenty of us non lawyer types and we think you are doing just fine! So do not ever be afarid to post what you are thinking. We are learning together, even the attorneys are picking up a thing or two.

Regarding getting someone off on a technicality..whose fault would you consider that to be?

 

[Pondering Mind]

I personally found nothing funny about Tracy87's post. I found Tracy87 to be an honorable person filled with integrity and compassion for a victim.

ITA...Is it just me or does it seem that 'we', as in 'the people' have forgotten what personal intregity/personal responsibility is over the years? That trying to do what's right just because it is, has become a thing of the past? <sigh> No wonder this world is in the shape it's in....way OT, I know so I'm gone...

 

[tracy87]

Thanks Tracy. This is one question I have about defense attorneys, and that's the subject of ethics.

All attorneys must work within the law. At what point is it no longer a matter of questionable ethics and instead becomes a crime?

Let me lay out a "what if" type of situation as it pertains to the Casey Anthony case...................

According to Dominic Casey, defense attorney JB, who knew DC was searching the woods off of Suburban for Caylee's remains, told DC that if he found Caylee not to call the police.

For the sake of this "what if" scenario.............what if DC had found Caylee's remains, reported this to JB, and JB failed to report finding Caylee's remains to police.

It would seem to me that this is no longer a matter of questionable ethics, but a crime to withhold evidence from the police. In this case, the remains of Caylee Anthony, would be considered major evidence.

alto i agree with you, i bet the argument you are going to get is

1. JB has no medical training to determine what is or isnt human remains and he certainly has no ability to ID remains

2. it is not a crime to NOT report a dead body.

just to repeat...i agree with you, but i have seen this question arise on other threads/forums and have heard these arguments.

 

[Leila]

i am glad i provided you with such humor! actually, i hired the defense attorney at the pleading of my parents and my brother's children.

altho, i believed he was guilty of A crime, i wasn't sure if it was THE crime he was charged with. i had hoped his defense attorney would be sure the TRUTH was discovered and my brother was convicted of the crime that he had committed.

i wanted his victim to have justice. that is kinda funny, isn't it? well maybe not funny, but kinda rare.

thanks for the God Bless. My brother died unexpectedly, so depending on who you ask, things did work out for the best.

Tracy............I'm sorry for the loss of your brother. I admire your desire to see truth and justice prevail. I agree that should be the goal.

 

[Wudge]

there are so many smart legal people on these threads it can be very intimidating to post. i am usually afraid that i will not be able to express myself as well as others.

but let me try:

i understand the need for defense attorneys, and i respect the american justice system. and i have heard all of the arguments. and YES, if i was accused of a crime of course i would want someone to defend me.

but i wonder if defense attorneys ever feel in a small place in their heart/soul a little bit of guilt for winning? if they truly knew their client was guilty, but was able to "win" an acquital because of a legal technicality...is the "win" worth it?

Our legal system lacks any group that wears white hats. There not the province of all judges or all prosecutors or all defense attorneys or all jurors or all lab techinicians or all detectives or all medical examiners or all law enforcement personnel, etc..

The best anyone who wears a white hat can do is to try and protect themselves from others who might cast a black shadow over them.

 

[tracy87]

There are only 3 or 4 verified attorneys on this board (rhhornsby ,azlawyer and impatientredhead off the top of my head) and plenty of us non lawyer types and we think you are doing just fine! So do not ever be afarid to post what you are thinking. We are learning together, even the attorneys are picking up a thing or two.

Regarding getting someone off on a technicality..whose fault would you consider that to be?

EXACTLY...if LE had not done their job per the "rules" and relevant evidence gets thrown out and causes a guilty person to "get away" with a crime. the fault lies with the LE.

however, just because a guilty person "gets away" with a crime, it does NOT make them any less guilty, does it? it just makes them a guilty unpunished person. that benefits from a LE mistake.

so, our justice system is basically an "exercise" that sometimes punishes the guilty people...???