The Turtleneck Theory

[madeleine]

DeeDee249,

The forensic evidence, fibers etc, suggest Patsy strangled JonBenet just outside the wine-cellar door.

Sorry but the evidence doesn't suggest such a thing at all.

 

[BBB167893]

WOW. UKGuy, you've given us a LOT to talk about. In fact, I hardly know where to start.

This could be one of the issues ST didn't lie about ,because of the way he talks about it in his depo.

IF he lied about anything in the true sense. But I agree, nonetheless.

I always thought that if it's true and she was sexually abused (even if for once) before the murder,get the abuser and you'll have your killer or at least the motive of the crime.

That's my feeling as well.

Some implied that this prior abuse could have been corporal punishment.(PR being mad because she wet/soiled the bed)
But then why does ST say
pg 253
"We gathered affidavits stating in clear language that there were injuries "consistent with prior trauma and sexual abuse" "Evidence of both acute injury and chronic sexual abuse".

He later corrects himself in the book with the phrase "chronic vaginal abuse." You may be right, maddy. He may have gone the wrong way on this.

 

[BBB167893]

Chiquita71,
You are not alone a lot of people share your intuition. An accident simply required 911. But Prior Vaginal Trauma required a lot of explaning away and that this was even attempted suugests prior knowledge on either or both parents behalf.

Far as I go, it's the cornerstone of this case.

Patsy never batted an eyelid when confronted with it during an interview.

I'll say. I've seen more emotion in a toothpaste commercial.

My money is on both parents and the extended family knowing hence the ongoing silence.

Hmm. I wonder if you folks would join me on the "UMI" thread. There's something I've been meaning to discuss.

 

[BBB167893]

What makes me happy about this case is this: it was the last time people denied parents ability to kill their own children. This case was back in a time when "good" people just could not allow themselves to believe other "good" people would do something like that to their child.

Yeah, it was the end of an era. Good thing, too.

If you have been on WS for any amount of time, or if you haven't-peruse the front page sometime and see what "good" parents are capable of doing to their children.

I wish some people WOULD, Chiquita.

ETA: Patsy's psychiatrist diagnosed Patsy with PTSD, after what happened to JonBenet. That is understandable: what is hinky is the fact that Patsy admitted she had "flashbacks" of JonBenet screaming. According to Patsy, she never heard JonBenet scream.

:twocents:

I didn't know she HAD a psychiatrist.

 

[BBB167893]

If your wife is a psycho angry person why risk everything for her,why send her on national TV (while on meds) and risk her saying something stupid and incriminating.

One possible reason: because it takes the focus off of you. Hmm...

 

[DeeDee249]

There was no urine on the white blanket, as far as we have been told, so I'd say she was wrapped in the blanket after death, with the blanket being placed on the wineceller floor, and JN being brought into the wineceller, laid on the blanket, which was then wrapped fairly loosely around her.
The urine stains on her panties and longjohns were anterior (front) which tells us she was on her stomach when her bladder voided. She was found on her back, though. So she didn't wet through the blanket. I feel the urine stains on the basement carpet outside the wineceller DO indicate that is where she voided her bladder, and the carpet absorbed a lot of the liquid, which is why the blanket had no urine stains on it. I recall reading that among the fibers found on JB were fibers from the basement carpet, but I don't recall if they were in her hair or her clothes.

 

[UKGuy]

There was no urine on the white blanket, as far as we have been told, so I'd say she was wrapped in the blanket after death, with the blanket being placed on the wineceller floor, and JN being brought into the wineceller, laid on the blanket, which was then wrapped fairly loosely around her.
The urine stains on her panties and longjohns were anterior (front) which tells us she was on her stomach when her bladder voided. She was found on her back, though. So she didn't wet through the blanket. I feel the urine stains on the basement carpet outside the wineceller DO indicate that is where she voided her bladder, and the carpet absorbed a lot of the liquid, which is why the blanket had no urine stains on it. I recall reading that among the fibers found on JB were fibers from the basement carpet, but I don't recall if they were in her hair or her clothes.

DeeDee249,

I tend to agree with you. So with JonBenet's bladder voided does this preclude a prior bedwetting?

Does it follow that she was redressed prior to her sustaining a final mortal injury?

Were her ponytails designed to hide a not visible skull-fracture or had JonBenet been dancing and singing for someone whilst wearing the red turtleneck and had her hair up in ponytails? This was a favorite of hers from an early age, she would wear ponytails whilst singing and dancing with Daphne White.

I reckon there was prior staging and that the red turleneck played a role.


..

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,

I tend to agree with you. So with JonBenet's bladder voided does this preclude a prior bedwetting?

Does it follow that she was redressed prior to her sustaining a final mortal injury?

Were her ponytails designed to hide a not visible skull-fracture or had JonBenet been dancing and singing for someone whilst wearing the red turtleneck and had her hair up in ponytails? This was a favorite of hers from an early age, she would wear ponytails whilst singing and dancing with Daphne White.

I reckon there was prior staging and that the red turleneck played a role.


..

It may not necessarily preclude a prior bedwetting. And it doesn't preclude bed (or clothing) soiling. Urine is constantly being produced by healthy kidneys. There is always some urine to be voided if some time has passed since last voiding, even as little as 20 minutes. But for JB's longjohns and panties, as well as some urine being found on a basement carpet indicate there was significant urine voided at death (or as she was dying). There was no feces voided because it had not progressed far enough along the lower digestive tract, and was seen at autopsy as "soft green fecal material". So even with the relaxing of the sphincter muscles at death, no feces was eliminated at death.
I do not feel the two ponytails hairdo had anything to do with the crime, staging, or anything else. I know I am probably in the minority on this issue. Here's why I feel that way: JB often wore her hair with a topknot ponytail, where a small ponytail is pulled up on the crown and the rest of her hair is loose around her shoulders. She can be seen in this pretty hairdo in a photo taken at the R party on the 23rd. My own daughter often wore her hair like that when she was little. Then- at bedtime, Patsy said she used to make a loose ponytail so her hair wouldn't tangle from sleeping. So I can see Patsy readying JB's hair for bed by simply leaving the top ponytail in place and pulling the rest of her hair back into a loose ponytail (at the nape of her neck) as she usually did for bedtime. This wasn't something done, IMO, to prepare her for bashing, staging, or anything else. It was simply the way she was going to bed that night.
I don't feel the turtleneck was worn for any "performance" that night. The red turtleneck may be a red herring. I know she didn't wear it to the White's, because there are photos of her wearing the white shirt. But she MAY have been changed into it after they got home. If that happened, I can't really see a good reason for it. It was found soaking in a sink. So something happened to it, or it would have been washed along with regular laundry. It isn't the kind of garment that needed hand washing, I can't fit that piece into the puzzle.

 

[UKGuy]

It may not necessarily preclude a prior bedwetting. And it doesn't preclude bed (or clothing) soiling. Urine is constantly being produced by healthy kidneys. There is always some urine to be voided if some time has passed since last voiding, even as little as 20 minutes. But for JB's longjohns and panties, as well as some urine being found on a basement carpet indicate there was significant urine voided at death (or as she was dying). There was no feces voided because it had not progressed far enough along the lower digestive tract, and was seen at autopsy as "soft green fecal material". So even with the relaxing of the sphincter muscles at death, no feces was eliminated at death.
I do not feel the two ponytails hairdo had anything to do with the crime, staging, or anything else. I know I am probably in the minority on this issue. Here's why I feel that way: JB often wore her hair with a topknot ponytail, where a small ponytail is pulled up on the crown and the rest of her hair is loose around her shoulders. She can be seen in this pretty hairdo in a photo taken at the R party on the 23rd. My own daughter often wore her hair like that when she was little. Then- at bedtime, Patsy said she used to make a loose ponytail so her hair wouldn't tangle from sleeping. So I can see Patsy readying JB's hair for bed by simply leaving the top ponytail in place and pulling the rest of her hair back into a loose ponytail (at the nape of her neck) as she usually did for bedtime. This wasn't something done, IMO, to prepare her for bashing, staging, or anything else. It was simply the way she was going to bed that night.
I don't feel the turtleneck was worn for any "performance" that night. The red turtleneck may be a red herring. I know she didn't wear it to the White's, because there are photos of her wearing the white shirt. But she MAY have been changed into it after they got home. If that happened, I can't really see a good reason for it. It was found soaking in a sink. So something happened to it, or it would have been washed along with regular laundry. It isn't the kind of garment that needed hand washing, I can't fit that piece into the puzzle.

DeeDee249,

Although static cling cannot be ruled out, other explanations for the location of the pink barbie-gown can be put forward and along with the red-turtleneck they seem to suggest multiple redressings, as if there was a process of elimination towards bedtime clothing and the removal of day-clothing. Of course there must be evidence that has been removed that will bias our view of what occurred that night, but since every attempt was made to remove evidence e.g. the flashlight, the red-turtleneck and pink barbie-gown remain as, former US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said these are known unknowns.

 

[DeeDee249]

Here is something I just thought about as I was going back to look at some autopsy photos. I saw an enlargement of a photo of JB's neck and chin area taken as she lay on the autopsy table. It is after her clothing was removed, but before the garrote cord was cut off by the coroner.
There is a very clear indication of a WHITE ligature mark on her neck, beneath the furrow where the cord is embedded. As you know, a WHITE mark is produced when something presses into the flesh in a corpse in the early, blanching (NON-fixed) stage of livor mortis. It is a mark made shortly AFTER death. That, to me, says even more significantly that the garrote was staging, even if the strangulation was done while she was still (barely) alive. I will try to see if the link will work.

http://tinypic.com/48n29sp.jpg

 

[UKGuy]

Here is something I just thought about as I was going back to look at some autopsy photos. I saw an enlargement of a photo of JB's neck and chin area taken as she lay on the autopsy table. It is after her clothing was removed, but before the garrote cord was cut off by the coroner.
There is a very clear indication of a WHITE ligature mark on her neck, beneath the furrow where the cord is embedded. As you know, a WHITE mark is produced when something presses into the flesh in a corpse in the early, blanching (NON-fixed) stage of livor mortis. It is a mark made shortly AFTER death. That, to me, says even more significantly that the garrote was staging, even if the strangulation was done while she was still (barely) alive. I will try to see if the link will work.

http://tinypic.com/48n29sp.jpg

DeeDee249,

Interesting find. I wonder if its possible that something other than the garrote was applied then changed for the garrote?

 

[MurriFlower]

Here is something I just thought about as I was going back to look at some autopsy photos. I saw an enlargement of a photo of JB's neck and chin area taken as she lay on the autopsy table. It is after her clothing was removed, but before the garrote cord was cut off by the coroner.
There is a very clear indication of a WHITE ligature mark on her neck, beneath the furrow where the cord is embedded. As you know, a WHITE mark is produced when something presses into the flesh in a corpse in the early, blanching (NON-fixed) stage of livor mortis. It is a mark made shortly AFTER death. That, to me, says even more significantly that the garrote was staging, even if the strangulation was done while she was still (barely) alive. I will try to see if the link will work.

http://tinypic.com/48n29sp.jpg

This is interesting DD but did you notice that, a bit like the blanching at the waist, it doesn't go all the way around her neck? This pic shows the other side.

http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetneckgarrote-x.jpg

 

[DeeDee249]

This is interesting DD but did you notice that, a bit like the blanching at the waist, it doesn't go all the way around her neck? This pic shows the other side.

http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetneckgarrote-x.jpg

Actually, your picture shows a different mark, and I don't see the white mark in that photo, but the photo is smaller and the white mark may be there in reality. Your photo shows the deep red ligature furrow after the cord was removed. My photo shows the cord still in place, and the white mark is at the lowest point on her neck. Neither photo shows the back of her neck, so we can't see, but Mayer did describe the ligature furrow as "circumferential" which means going all the way around. No mention of what he thought of the white marks. Apparently, there was quite a bit that Mayer chose not to put in his notes. There was a partial fingerprint that was lifted from the body, and he chose not to mention that.

 

[MurriFlower]

Actually, your picture shows a different mark, and I don't see the white mark in that photo, but the photo is smaller and the white mark may be there in reality. Your photo shows the deep red ligature furrow after the cord was removed. My photo shows the cord still in place, and the white mark is at the lowest point on her neck. Neither photo shows the back of her neck, so we can't see, but Mayer did describe the ligature furrow as "circumferential" which means going all the way around. No mention of what he thought of the white marks. Apparently, there was quite a bit that Mayer chose not to put in his notes. There was a partial fingerprint that was lifted from the body, and he chose not to mention that.

Just wondering if the mark is from the top. Notice how the white mark intersects with the cord? Perhaps it was trapped under the cord and pulled tight, leaving the mark?

 

[DeeDee249]

Just wondering if the mark is from the top. Notice how the white mark intersects with the cord? Perhaps it was trapped under the cord and pulled tight, leaving the mark?

I don't think the neck of the shirt came up that high on her throat. To me, it looks like the cord was pulled again at that point after death. We know that the first tugs on the garrote happened when she was still alive (because of the petechiae and the red color of the furrow.
I can't begin to explain all the frustration I feel with the seemingly endless contradictions in this case. If the ligature was first tightened when she was alive, why go back and pull it again after she was dead? How quickly does a white mark appear (instead of red) after death? I know livor begins pretty soon after death, and the first stage is blanching (makes a white mark under pressure) so I suppose if she died while being strangled (as seems to be the case) if the cord was tightened one more time after her heart stopped, it could make the white mark.

 

[MurriFlower]

I don't think the neck of the shirt came up that high on her throat. To me, it looks like the cord was pulled again at that point after death. We know that the first tugs on the garrote happened when she was still alive (because of the petechiae and the red color of the furrow.
I can't begin to explain all the frustration I feel with the seemingly endless contradictions in this case. If the ligature was first tightened when she was alive, why go back and pull it again after she was dead? How quickly does a white mark appear (instead of red) after death? I know livor begins pretty soon after death, and the first stage is blanching (makes a white mark under pressure) so I suppose if she died while being strangled (as seems to be the case) if the cord was tightened one more time after her heart stopped, it could make the white mark.

After looking at all the pictures, I still think this was the neck band of the shirt. It is far too low to have been a first attempt with the garrote. I suspect the back of the band was caught up somehow in the cord. Go to the pictures of her back again and you will also see concentric white rings around her neck and shoulders.

Did you read my post about the Bog Man? Boy, this is so similar, but it sounds incredible to think someone might have performed a ritual sacrafice. The three-times killed is a theme in Druid sacrifice. The garrote, the head bash, feeding beforehand, the timing (Christmas) --does a life have to be given for one saved?

 

[Ames]

Here is something I just thought about as I was going back to look at some autopsy photos. I saw an enlargement of a photo of JB's neck and chin area taken as she lay on the autopsy table. It is after her clothing was removed, but before the garrote cord was cut off by the coroner.
There is a very clear indication of a WHITE ligature mark on her neck, beneath the furrow where the cord is embedded. As you know, a WHITE mark is produced when something presses into the flesh in a corpse in the early, blanching (NON-fixed) stage of livor mortis. It is a mark made shortly AFTER death. That, to me, says even more significantly that the garrote was staging, even if the strangulation was done while she was still (barely) alive. I will try to see if the link will work.

http://tinypic.com/48n29sp.jpg

OMGosh, now I will have nightmares again. JB looks exactly like my daughter did at that age,...(she is now 8) and people used to tell her that ALL the time. I had a picture of her posted here at one time, and people asked me where I found that particular picture of JB. ANYWAY....I cannot stand to look at those autopsy photos, but I made myself....and I totally agree with you. (I still think that the Ramseys...not being in the medical profession....did not know that JB was still alive. I believe that her pulse was very, very faint. My mom's pulse was like that right before she died...the nurse couldn't even detect it, but...my mom was still talking...so of course she was alive. So that just proves that it is possible to have a pulse so faint, that it is undectectable.) Now if I can just get that horrible image of JB on that autopsy table, out of my head.......

 

[DeeDee249]

After looking at all the pictures, I still think this was the neck band of the shirt. It is far too low to have been a first attempt with the garrote. I suspect the back of the band was caught up somehow in the cord. Go to the pictures of her back again and you will also see concentric white rings around her neck and shoulders.

Did you read my post about the Bog Man? Boy, this is so similar, but it sounds incredible to think someone might have performed a ritual sacrafice. The three-times killed is a theme in Druid sacrifice. The garrote, the head bash, feeding beforehand, the timing (Christmas) --does a life have to be given for one saved?

I actually have the book on the Bog People, bought on one of my many trips to London. Fascinating book. Many of them WERE thought to have been ritually murdered, and the book notes that the multiple injuries may have been because each method of killing was to appease a different god. Some bodies have been found to even have a remnant of charred bread in the stomach. Pieces of bread were placed in a vessel and the "victim" for the sacrifice was whoever pulled out the charred bread.
Tollund Man, as all the bog people, are haunting. Amazing how the cold water and chemical composition of the peat bogs preserved the skin like leather, yet the soft tissue and internal organs were all dissolved in the acidic water of the bog. Some woolen clothing has been preserved. Even some finger and toenails are still attached after centuries in the bogs. Many of these bodies were found when the peat was cut for fuel.

 

[DeeDee249]

That being said, this was not the product of a Druid or any other ritualistic sacrifice. This was a murder, possibly an accidental one, sadly, done by someone she knew.

WAY off in space here, but wouldn't it be something if you could look into the eyes of a murder victim and see the last thing they saw? Like a hidden camera in the eye. Might not always be the perp, though. In poor JB's case, she was probably looking at the floor somewhere in the basement as she lay on her stomach while being garroted. But at least we'd know where it happened.

 

[MurriFlower]

That being said, this was not the product of a Druid or any other ritualistic sacrifice. This was a murder, possibly an accidental one, sadly, done by someone she knew.

Right in the beginning of my time here, I would have agreed with you. I can now see that this was no accident, it was carefully planned and executed.

WAY off in space here, but wouldn't it be something if you could look into the eyes of a murder victim and see the last thing they saw? Like a hidden camera in the eye. Might not always be the perp, though. In poor JB's case, she was probably looking at the floor somewhere in the basement as she lay on her stomach while being garroted. But at least we'd know where it happened.

There's always a chance that she would not have recognised them or had an opportunity to see them, eventhough they are most likely amongst the 'suspects'.