The wait for closing arguments discussion thread

[daisy.faithfull]

Sweedie, I just wanted to point out something that struck me from your post. It's very long so I'm not going to quote the whole thing if that's okay.

Towards the end of the list it says criminal versatility. I did not think at the beginning of the trial that we would learn that MTR was a pimp. I know it isn't something that can't be used to determine his guilt or innocence, but we did learn that.

Looking at TLM's rap sheet it looks to me like she is truly a violent woman. She seems like the type who uses violence to get what she wants. In contrast I think that MTR is much more of a manipulator, getting is way by toying with their emotions and psyche rather than physically intimidating them. That is one of the reasons I believe he was the dominant in the relationship.

 

[swedie]

MR is on trial for his life......and he would be wise to listen to his lawyers.

There is nothing to stop him from telling RS everything he knows after the trial, regardless of the verdict.

JMO

Bolded; true
Underlined; not true

MOO

There is no way in He11 I would sit there like a dupe and not tell my version of what happened April 8, 2009. No lawyer would come between me and fighting for my freedom. I know why he isn't speaking, need I say more?

 

[Sillybilly]

Link to article re TM having called LE on Easter Sunday:

Toronto Sun
March 8, 2012:

It was Easter Sunday 2009, four days after Tori was last seen on a surveillance camera being led away from Oliver Stephens Public School with a young woman with long hair and a white coat. A massive police investigation was underway with worried officers working around the clock. Kelly, who had become the liaison officer with Tori’s distraught family, was interviewing a possible witness when he got a call from the missing girl’s mom, Tara McDonald - she thought the woman in the video could be someone she knew as “Terri”.

full article at:
http://m.torontosun.com/2012/03/08/...-became-a-suspect-in-toris-death?noimage=true

 

[Sillybilly]

McClintic ignored the order to get help and fled to London for a time. That was the breach that landed her back in custody April 12, 2009.

So McClilntic did have ties to London.

Wonder who she stayed with and hung around.

Lots of information at this link about TLM's testimony.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/ToriStafford/2012/03/22/19535821.html

JMO

<bbm>

I read earlier tonite (can't find the link now, but vaguely recall that info from when the case first started) that TLM and CM had moved to their Wilson Av home about 2 months prior to TM and JG moving to Frances St. Not sure it was ever stated where they had moved from. The look of the place looked like they'd lived there a lot longer, so dunno.

 

[tygomuk]

Gotta Say... When nothing is coming forth from court or media the discussion takes on a new life of it's own. Not only this case either. It becomes, ahem, spirited! And definitely not implying that is a bad thing either. Have a wonderful weekend; Hug your kids, your grandkids, your parents or your best friends and remember Victoria this weekend as I am confident the jury will as well.

 

[snoofer]

I am sure I read that RS got information from CM's neighbors. I always thought LE got the information on TLM from one of them.......not TM.

Was there any documentation from LE that TM called them about TLM?

JMO

The neighbours recognized TLM from the sketch. They went over to her house and said. Did you take Tori. TLM screamed NO and locked herself in the bathroom. The neighbours called I believe the tip line. MOO
TLM cuts her hair


Craig Racine, Jessica McDonald and Tina X - begin to suspect TLM and have multiple conversations with her abotu Tori's disappearance (http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache...y&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca&client=firefox-a)- they contact police during this time.
Police canvas neighbourhood & TLM hides in bathroom when LE knocks on Raccine's door (same link above)
April 10

 

[snoofer]

Now that little statement with TLM denying she walked up the hill at a rapid pace with TS following obediently behind is interesting.

The last witness may not have been there just to testify about TLM going into the front door of the school...........but also to catch TLM in a lie while on the witness stand. The witness testified that TLM looked like she was on a mission and TS was happily following obediently behind.

Derstine now has 2 statements from the eyewitness that conflict with TLM's testimony and the video evidence will prove TLM is lying on at least one of them.

I wonder how Derstine got TLM to say that..........and wonder why she would try to say she wasn't walking rapidly or that TS wasn't following obediently behind.

Was it to try to hide familiarity with TS?

JMO.........

walking speed is subjective. Husband always tells me to slow down. But I do not feel I walk fast. MOO

 

[snoofer]

Would you be comfortable next week if he moved in next door to you?
I would personally move my kids in with the grandparents while I scared him out of the nieghbourhood!

yep I would run him out too. MOO

 

[snoofer]

I just read this passage from the star article and never caught it before.

"I kept having flashbacks. Sometimes it was like I wasn’t even there. I realized I needed to do something so I turned back to the vehicle and . . . when I saw what was going on, all I saw was myself when I was that age and all the anger and hate and rage that I’d had and blame that I still feel towards myself came boiling up out of me.”

"and blame I feel towards myself"

My mother was abused as a child. I never understood her pain until I read the book, "When Rabbit Howls" The victim in the book could never get over the shame she felt. The shame of seeking out the inappropriate attention because neglected children will seek out any attention they can get.

This may have been discussed before and I apologize as I just put it together. Interesting JMO

Except.......TLM bought the hammer that she used BEFORE her said flashbacks, then used THAT hammer. Hmmmmm........ MOO

 

[nobodyzgirl]

McClintic ignored the order to get help and fled to London for a time. That was the breach that landed her back in custody April 12, 2009.

So McClilntic did have ties to London.

Wonder who she stayed with and hung around.

Lots of information at this link about TLM's testimony.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/ToriStafford/2012/03/22/19535821.html

JMO

I am going to guess she was hanging out with someone from the EOA.

 

[crazyladi]

When Tori was taken I was one of those people that thought TM was so suspicious and I ate my words for that. I voiced my opinion often on how she was behaving and got scolded many times for bringing the victims family into my posts. I never stopped believing that TM knows more than what she is saying however she is not on trial and if there was something more about that it would have been brought up when Derstine cross examined her.

Not sure why all of the sudden she is being brought into this when its clear that MTR and TLM were the ones that kidnapped, raped and murdered her daughter.

Just because people think MTR didnt rape her and is an innocent dupe in all of this it doesnt mean they should go with another theory of TM and the skeletons in her closet.

She is not on trial and if she does know more than what she is saying she will have to live with that guilt the rest of her life in which I am sure she already is because he child is gone and never coming back.

MTR is guilty of this crime not TM. JMO

 

[tmhco]

Except.......TLM bought the hammer that she used BEFORE her said flashbacks, then used THAT hammer. Hmmmmm........ MOO

I wasn't implying anything other than that she used an excuse that most abuse victims bury deep and often do not reveal. If anything I am more apt to believe she was the one to commit the act. Jmo

 

[antiquegirl]

I'm not sure what the point of these posts is, beyond trying to vilify Tara.

Even if TLM knew who Tori was, or had seen her around, that doesn't negate that TLM took Tori and that she and MR transported that poor baby in his car to a rock pile in rural Ontario and killed her.

I don't think anyone is trying to vilify TM. It all goes back to trying to establish whether or not (and how well) Tori knew TLM, explaining why she may have walked willingly away with her. And that goes back to the grandmother's testimony that she thought the woman and girl walking up Fyfe were mother and daughter because of how happy Tori acted. These topics tend to go off on tangents.

JMO

 

[lightlady]

Whether Tori walked away willingly with TLM because she knew her or knew of her, or because she wanted to see her dog, I don't really know how it matters given all the other evidence and videos. I am just not seeing a "story" that has come from the trial, or a story from the folks on this board, that does as good a job of fitting all of the evidence (physical and circumstantial) than the one the Crown has presented. I was hoping for the sake of MR that the defense would somehow give an alternate credible story that was better than the "MR was duped and walked away during the killing" one, but they haven't yet. Maybe we will all have an aha moment during the closing, but up until now the drug debt and/or familiarity seem to have no bearing on any of the evidence and don't really hang together to me.

 

[Thinkzerz]

When Tori was taken I was one of those people that thought TM was so suspicious and I ate my words for that. I voiced my opinion often on how she was behaving and got scolded many times for bringing the victims family into my posts. I never stopped believing that TM knows more than what she is saying however she is not on trial and if there was something more about that it would have been brought up when Derstine cross examined her.

Not sure why all of the sudden she is being brought into this when its clear that MTR and TLM were the ones that kidnapped, raped and murdered her daughter.

Just because people think MTR didnt rape her and is an innocent dupe in all of this it doesnt mean they should go with another theory of TM and the skeletons in her closet.

She is not on trial and if she does know more than what she is saying she will have to live with that guilt the rest of her life in which I am sure she already is because he child is gone and never coming back.

MTR is guilty of this crime not TM. JMO

You posted this as if it was me. I too was also one that was suspicious of TM. I will however never believe TS didn't know TLM or vise versa. JMO
However being one of those who was suspicious and voiced about it on forums, i now live with the guilt. When i was suspicious of TM it gave me hoping VS would be found safe and sound. Even if drugs had anything to do with this it will be TM that lives with that guilt but it still gave no right to harm a child and especially the way TS had to go through. Sick people did this not her mom. JMO

 

[otto]

I don't think anyone is trying to vilify TM. It all goes back to trying to establish whether or not (and how well) Tori knew TLM, explaining why she may have walked willingly away with her. And that goes back to the grandmother's testimony that she thought the woman and girl walking up Fyfe were mother and daughter because of how happy Tori acted. These topics tend to go off on tangents.

JMO

One would almost think that Victoria was the first child to ever be abducted without putting up a huge fight! This child was lured away, like thousands of other children. The fact that she was lured without putting up a fight does not mean that she knew the abductors, it means that she, a child, was tricked by an evil person into accompanying her. The victims of Bernardo and Homolka were lured as well. They were tricked, did not make a scene on the street prior to being lured and they did not know their abductors.

It is absurd to say that because Victoria walked with her abductor, she knew the woman.

 

[crazyladi]

You posted this as if it was me. I too was also one that was suspicious of TM. I will however never believe TS didn't know TLM or vise versa. JMO
However being one of those who was suspicious and voiced about it on forums, i now live with the guilt. When i was suspicious of TM it gave me hoping VS would be found safe and sound. Even if drugs had anything to do with this it will be TM that lives with that guilt but it still gave no right to harm a child and especially the way TS had to go through. Sick people did this not her mom. JMO

Ummm no I didnt. I was just pointing out the trend in the last day or so.

 

[Hello_Kitty]

I highly doubt Derstine would do this now. Phew! This could really be viewed badly but the jurors. Even if he designated her as a hostile witness, looks really bad for him. He closed the barn doors too late. I honestly do not think he was expecting this witness to give such damaging testimony to the Crown. WTH was he thinking really? For that one witness he also gave up the opportunity to speak last wowzers hahaha. MOO, I would not recommend Derstine as a lawyer to anyone. Well maybe my worst enemy lol. I saw so many missed opportunities where he could have raised reasonable doubt with some of these witnesses the Crown called. I'm still scratching my head and it's not because I have bugs either. MOO

While taking back statements, documents, or contracts can sometimes be a virtue, there are horror stories regarding its implementation. Rape victims have been sued for defamation if their cases were unsuccessful in court. They may be forced to retract an accusation of rape, which arguably re-traumatizes the victim.

In some odd instances, people have been held criminally liable for false retractions of testimony, and they have been convicted of perjury. For example, one woman in the United Kingdom was jailed for retracting an accusation of rape against her husband, not because the accusation was false, but because the retraction was. Though she was ultimately freed, her example suggests that any testimony in court, including a retraction, is weighed with due gravity.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-retraction.htm

I don't think that Derstine is incompetent. But I think something else is going on that we are not privy to because this was the strangest defense I've ever seen. It feels almost as tho Derstine was sabotaging his own client. (oops I said it)

 

[giantalkinghead]

I don't think that Derstine is incompetent. But I think something else is going on that we are not privy to because this was the strangest defense I've ever seen. It feels almost as tho Derstine was sabotaging his own client. (oops I said it)

Somehow it seems to me he ( Derstine ) is setting up the stage for an Appeal - if his client is found guilty... or for a re-trial in the case of a hung jury. MOO

 

[Oldsoul2]

Where's the trial thread today??? Isn't Derstine doing closing arguments today?