That lid is only made of galvanized sheet metal, might weigh a pound at the most. A gust of wind could shut it.
The Water Tanks
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Conductor71
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Thanks for clarifying that. Anything is possible, but I still cannot see her climbing into that tank and then putting the lid back on. Unless, the game of hide and seek that some think she was playing in the elevator continued on the roof taking a really ugly turn.
FiveFelines
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BBM. I agree about an employee knowing that a water tank wouldn't be the first place to search.
Re cleaning staff: My understanding from the timeline is that she was last seen on Jan 31 and reported missing by her family on Feb 1.
jash
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BBM - That's something that's always bothered me with this case. I want to know what the hotel did when she failed to check out that day. Did they call her room? Did they send someone up to knock on the door? Did they actually enter her room? Did they charge her credit card for the extra nights when they saw her things were still there?
In the past when I've decided to extend a stay at a hotel, I've had to go down to the front-desk on my original check-out day and the front desk would call housekeeping to let them know I'd be staying in the same room longer.
I seen there's some discussion about whether or not a person can carry a 115 lbs person (conscious, unconscious, or dead) up ladders, etc. I personally have not tried doing this, but a few days ago, someone posted a video they made which I enjoyed watching, as the person (a 6' 200lbs guy) takes the trouble to re-enact carrying a 90 lbs dummy up a short metal ladder and then up a tall vertical ladder. The video maker shows that it's difficult to carry a 90 lbs dummy up the short ladder and it was not possible to carry the dummy up the long vertical ladder. See around the 9 minute mark:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRa9nDWdmZo"]Theory! How did Elisa Lam get inside the water tank - YouTube[/ame]
Of course, this doesn't prove anything. If EL did not go into the cistern on her own, the "perp" could be quite strong or on adrenaline, there could have been lifting/carrying aids involved, or there could be more than one "perp."
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRa9nDWdmZo"]Theory! How did Elisa Lam get inside the water tank - YouTube[/ame]
Of course, this doesn't prove anything. If EL did not go into the cistern on her own, the "perp" could be quite strong or on adrenaline, there could have been lifting/carrying aids involved, or there could be more than one "perp."
I thought about this as well a few days ago after watching the video and commented that my thoughts would be influenced a bit by lid design:
Scenario 1: Lid is a lift up and off design. It would be very unlikely EL would be able to get in herself and close the lid.
Scenario 2: Lid is hinged (people seem to be leaning towards this idea.)
a. The lid closed "on it's own" by:
i. EL climbs in, just slightly propping open the lid (less than vertical) and the lid falls closed as she climbs in.
ii. (someone else mentioned this) the wind blows the lid closed
b. Lid closed by someone else
i. someone who knew EL was inside (eg: the "perp"(s))
ii. someone who didn't know EL was inside (she's no longer conscious or living at this point, thus no sound or motion)
(a) maintenance worker doing his/her rounds closes open lid during time EL is missing, possibly due to protocol of lids being closed.
(b) maintenance worker who responded to low water flow and discovered EL's body closes lid after seeing the body.
(c) (very unlikely) some random roof visitor closes lid
The maintenance worker scenarios would work for a lift up and off scenario too. The officer mentions that the cistern was covered when the police arrived, but didn't mention if the maintenance worker noticed that the lid was off when he/she first arrived and spotted the body.
Scenario 1: Lid is a lift up and off design. It would be very unlikely EL would be able to get in herself and close the lid.
Scenario 2: Lid is hinged (people seem to be leaning towards this idea.)
a. The lid closed "on it's own" by:
i. EL climbs in, just slightly propping open the lid (less than vertical) and the lid falls closed as she climbs in.
ii. (someone else mentioned this) the wind blows the lid closed
b. Lid closed by someone else
i. someone who knew EL was inside (eg: the "perp"(s))
ii. someone who didn't know EL was inside (she's no longer conscious or living at this point, thus no sound or motion)
(a) maintenance worker doing his/her rounds closes open lid during time EL is missing, possibly due to protocol of lids being closed.
(b) maintenance worker who responded to low water flow and discovered EL's body closes lid after seeing the body.
(c) (very unlikely) some random roof visitor closes lid
The maintenance worker scenarios would work for a lift up and off scenario too. The officer mentions that the cistern was covered when the police arrived, but didn't mention if the maintenance worker noticed that the lid was off when he/she first arrived and spotted the body.
walklikeacat
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I think you need to know how much water the tank contained. If it was nearly filled up then it would be rather easy to lower down, if you had Elisa´s shoulder width. What is the width of that opening? 35-40 centimeter (13.7-15.7 inch). If it is 35 centimeter then it is nearly 50 on diagonal. And the lid was only applied there without any hinges. It could be put aside and then you balance it back on your fingertips when you put it back again.
So how much water was it in the tank? We know it was three quarters when she was found.
Borris
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I don't think it is known that the lids were on or off, otherwise they wouldn't include accident/suicide as possibilities.
The Chinese group put up a video on the tanks and the lids from 2 of the tanks are missing, which includes the one that contained Ms.Lam's body.
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I'm not able to watch all the vids due to cost of data on a mobile connection, but it seems LAPD has indicated the lid was on:
[ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8990846&postcount=847"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #5[/ame]
I don't know why you are referring to the lids missing from 2 other tanks, but they were on the tanks in the pics we have early in the investigation, so if they are missing subsequent to that, could be they are being tested to see how they operate under varying conditions.
JMO
Borris
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Maybe you could post those specific photos later, as I haven't seen a photo which clearly shows that the lids are opened or closed.
The Chinese group's video shows the tanks at about 8:58 in the video linked to this post:
The first tank has a lid with hinges, and the paint looks as good on the rim as it does on the shell.
EL's tank on the right is missing the lid, maybe in the hands of LE, but the rim is oxidized, suggesting exposure.
- Here is a photo from the video for your mobile-
-
I can post a larger photo if these are too small.
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<snip>
Don't remember which threads they are in Borris. If you go back through the previous threads, you will see them.
A quick google image search of "elisa lam" "water tank" will bring up a bunch of pics from when the firemen and investigators were still up on the rooftop.
Borris
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There must be dozens. I have seen a lot of them, haven't really found any specific ones that showed closed lids. I thought maybe you had one bookmarked.
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Ah, you look grasshopper, you do not see ...
http://storage.canoe.ca/v1/dynamic_...L.jpg?quality=80&size=650x&stmp=1361335188631
http://nationalpostnews.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/water-tank.jpg?w=620
http://media.10news.com/photo/2013/02/20/elisa_lam_tank_body_1361398653257_376923_ver1.0_320_240.jpg
http://privateofficernews.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/09.jpg
http://c498390.r90.cf2.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/WaterTank-500x281.jpg
I'll send you my research invoice in the mail. I accept PayPal
A question thats been on my mind:
If she had accidentally fallen into the tank because she was walking across it (possibly detached from reality), would she drop straight down? Based on my own experiences in having the ground unexpectedly drop out from under me, I tend to violently pitch forward which increases the likelihood that she would smack herself & bruise on the way down, doesnt it? Im not an expert on human motion by any stretch, so Id love someones input on this.
If she had accidentally fallen into the tank because she was walking across it (possibly detached from reality), would she drop straight down? Based on my own experiences in having the ground unexpectedly drop out from under me, I tend to violently pitch forward which increases the likelihood that she would smack herself & bruise on the way down, doesnt it? Im not an expert on human motion by any stretch, so Id love someones input on this.
This is a good observation. I tend to agree that she wouldn't have fallen straight down into such a small opening. And if you think about it, it is likely that one foot would have entered the opening first causing her to fall forwards, but the other foot would have been on the tank and probably would have collapsed, but it doesn't seem possible that she couldn't have braced herself.
The only way I can see her going straight in (if, indeed, she put herself in the tank), was if she sat with both feet/legs in and then lowered herself in.
I tend to agree. Looking at the size of the hole I don't believe you could accidentally fall in without leaving some signs of trauma on the body. The lip around the edge that holds the top in place alone looks like it would take some skin off.
It's easily big enough to climb in but to me it doesn't seem big enough to just fall in if that makes sense
On top of the tank most likely, look at the scum on the botton of the tank in the pic, looks like mud which tells me they were pumping water out of the tank from the top and if I remember right all the plumbing was on the top
MoonUnderfoot
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"Drowning Investigations"
By Haupt, Gary
"...Body Posture
Corpses normally exhibit a relaxed, often prone, semifetal position when discovered by divers on the bottom of a body of water. They assume this posture because of the buoyant properties of water; the natural forces exerted by the skeletal muscles, even when relaxed; and the buoyancy of the lungs, which lie nearer the back than the front. In this position, the arms and legs usually are slightly bent at the elbows and knees. The head often tilts slightly forward, and the spine curves slightly. Authorities should see this configuration upon recovery when rigor mortis is developed.
Any person who has died on land and remained in a terrestrial environment during the onset of rigor mortis will display a different posture. The head likely will be rotated to one side, a position almost never found in a drowning victim.17
Hand and Arm Positions
Investigators often will find a drowning victim’s arms bent with the hands turned toward the face when rigor mortis has developed. In those cases, it appears that individuals tried to cover their mouths to prevent drowning. Often, they clinch their hands in a fist. These arm and hand positions are much less pronounced or not present at all in victims who drowned while intoxicated because these individuals generally do not struggle, but simply disappear below the surface of the water.
Sometimes, investigators may find objects in the hands of victims, such as grass from an embankment. If the drowning occurred in relatively shallow water, soil or gravel commonly found on the bottom may be clutched in the hands, indicating that the individual probably entered the water while conscious.18
<modsnip>
http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/400990/drowning_investigations/
By Haupt, Gary
"...Body Posture
Corpses normally exhibit a relaxed, often prone, semifetal position when discovered by divers on the bottom of a body of water. They assume this posture because of the buoyant properties of water; the natural forces exerted by the skeletal muscles, even when relaxed; and the buoyancy of the lungs, which lie nearer the back than the front. In this position, the arms and legs usually are slightly bent at the elbows and knees. The head often tilts slightly forward, and the spine curves slightly. Authorities should see this configuration upon recovery when rigor mortis is developed.
Any person who has died on land and remained in a terrestrial environment during the onset of rigor mortis will display a different posture. The head likely will be rotated to one side, a position almost never found in a drowning victim.17
Hand and Arm Positions
Investigators often will find a drowning victim’s arms bent with the hands turned toward the face when rigor mortis has developed. In those cases, it appears that individuals tried to cover their mouths to prevent drowning. Often, they clinch their hands in a fist. These arm and hand positions are much less pronounced or not present at all in victims who drowned while intoxicated because these individuals generally do not struggle, but simply disappear below the surface of the water.
Sometimes, investigators may find objects in the hands of victims, such as grass from an embankment. If the drowning occurred in relatively shallow water, soil or gravel commonly found on the bottom may be clutched in the hands, indicating that the individual probably entered the water while conscious.18
<modsnip>
http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/400990/drowning_investigations/