The West Memphis Less-Than-Three?

[reedus23]

I actually would not mind exploring this question I've put forward, and I don't wish it rendered pointless by one side posting 'they're ALL innocent" and the other side posting "they're ALL guilty" - and this spamming up the thread ad infinitum, presuming I can manage to keep the thread on topic at all.

The fact is, there's room to poke holes in all of the alibis. Another fact is that there are periods of time during the evening and night of the murders in which the three were not in each others' company at all.

And while there's plenty of room (and hey, the entire -rest of the forum- )for each 'side' to argue the absolutes of guilt or innocence for all three, that is not what I am looking to explore here (look, I said it twice, just to get it across nice and clear) - there's ALSO room for the idea that NOT ALL are guilty, and NOT ALL are innocent.

With that hypothesis in mind, who do you think might have had the greater means, motive, and opportunity?

Who of the three was the MOST likely to have accessed the crime scene, had the time to attack, bind, kill, hide the bodies, hide the clothes, hide the bikes, clean up the scene, clean themselves up and get to the next solid (or semi-solid, as you will) part of their alibis?

It might be a too-hard question that few really want to attempt due to favourite theoretical applecarts... but I maintain that it's not impossible for one of the three to be guilty, or two of the three, and not the remainder.

Does anyone who CONCURS with this idea wish to attempt an answer? That'd be awesome.

I never said it was IMPOSSIBLE. I only said certain evidence would have to be disregarded and other evidence regarded to make it possible IMO. If you discount the alibis, then any of the 3 had the opportunity and means, though I doubt any one could kill all 3 boys by himself. Echols is probably the one I would have said had the most justification in being investigated given his past.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Although I am convinced that all three are innocent, I will concede the possibility that one could be guilty, but I would think that the one who would be guilty would have had to have help. Although Damien is the one who, IMO, seems to be the most likely candidate, my guess would be that Jessie could have been an observer from afar - if his alibi is truly discounted (which I don't happen to believe).

Despite Damien's "weirdness," IMO, I see Jessie as the one with more possibly violent friends. I don't for one minute think that Jessie participated in the murders, but I think he could have either witnessed the crimes or that one of his friends, Buddy Lucas comes to mind, confessed to him. However, I will state again that I believe Jessie's alibi witnesses and feel that the disintegration of their stories under cross examination doesn't prove that their stories were false, but merely proves that the prosecutors were better at cross examination than the defense attorneys were at redirect.

However, as to the question at hand, my candidate for a participant or observer of the murders would be Jessie. IMO, Damien, despite his mental health issues, is not a violent person by nature, nor is Jason. Jessie, although not truly a violent person, could have been easily swayed or could have stumbled upon the crime in progress and been frightened into keeping quiet (or incriminating someone else) or could have been a confidant for the murderer.

However, I don't believe any of the three falsely-convicted were involved. I believe Jessie's alibi witnesses, and I believe Damien's and Jason's statements as to their whereabouts at the time. Finally, I believe that we wouldn't be here today if the wmpd had done their job back in '93. If they had properly investigated all of the parents, the guilty party would be incarcerated at the present time, and justice would have been served at the onset of this horrible crime.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

How do you not see Damien or Jessie as violent people when there are many examples to show that at the time (at least) they were?

 

[Compassionate Reader]

How do you not see Damien or Jessie as violent people when there are many examples to show that at the time (at least) they were?

IMO, many of the "examples" of Damien's supposedly violent behavior are exaggerated. Much of the "evidence" is statements he made and/or things he wrote. I have seen/heard my own students say and/or write similar things. So, I don't see it as violent behavior. I don't believe the Great Dane incident. As to the whole "gouging out" of someone's eyes, again, this is a blatant exaggeration, IMO. Again, IMO, most of Damien's violent actions were directed at himself or in a form of self-defense. So, I don't think he is a truly violent person unless provoked. Also, Damien's one possibly violent act was directed toward a peer. There is nothing I have read to suggest that he was ever violent as a show of power.

As to Jessie, he is simply slow-witted. Again, some of his violent behavior is directed at himself. Any perceived violent acts against others were never at ones younger than he, only at peers. So, I see nothing in his past to suggest that he would use violence in order to show power over someone younger than he is.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Most of Damien's violent actions were actually directed at others, be those his classmates, great danes etc. What about the threats he made towards his parents or his own descriptions of himself as 'homicidal' for instance .. all of it, just dismissed?

If so OK, but you have to understand that that does make your argument more flimsy as it appears that you wish to dismiss things that are known about Damien in order to shore up your argument for his innocence.

 

[Ausgirl]

One thing that has stuck in my craw re Jessie is the whisky bottle incident. He said the bottle was there, and it was. Of course, he could have smashed it at any time.. but it bothers me anyway.

I really need to gather the facts a bit more tightly in my head before I can speak of a possible scenario, but if I was to imagine Jessie having a hand in these murders, it'd be a kneejerk act of violence in a sudden fit of temper (which he was known for), and I agree he would have needed help, if not in the murders themselves then certainly in the methodical clean-up.

My 'what if they did it' side of the coin always has escalated bullying popping up as a motive. I can see Echols bullying those weaker then himself if they annoyed him, I really can -- but the extent of the violence, I am far less inclined to attribute to him. Or any of the others, really, with the possible exception of Jessie, under some kind of extreme provocation. But three victims? Idk.

 

[kyleb]

Well Echols did go through a particularly rough situation the night before the murders if what his mother told police about his father moving out that night is correct. And as noted in his mental heath records from less than five months before the murders:

Denies that this has influenced him stating “I just put it all inside.” Describes this as more than just anger — like rage. Sometimes he does “blow up”. Relates that when this happens the only solution is to “hurt someone”.

 

[gheckso]

One thing that has stuck in my craw re Jessie is the whisky bottle incident. He said the bottle was there, and it was. Of course, he could have smashed it at any time.. but it bothers me anyway.

There is some discussion on the bottle here (yes I realize it's biased, although it does raise some legitimate questions)

And more here

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Most of Damien's violent actions were actually directed at others, be those his classmates, great danes etc.

The violence directed at himself wasn't always reported. He has discussed it in interviews and in his books. As to the Great Dane story, as I stated previously, I give that absolutely no credence. A Great Dane is an expensive dog. I'm sure if one had been abused/killed in the manner Joe B. described, the owner would have filed a complaint, and there would be a police record to back up the story told.

What about the threats he made towards his parents or his own descriptions of himself as 'homicidal' for instance .. all of it, just dismissed?

As I have stated before, I have heard my own students make very similar threats - toward their own parents, toward the principal, toward the counselor, toward peers. It's never been acted out, to my knowledge. Those statements, as well as describing himself as "homicidal" are all for effect - posturing, if you will, IMO.

If so OK, but you have to understand that that does make your argument more flimsy as it appears that you wish to dismiss things that are known about Damien in order to shore up your argument for his innocence.

I'm not dismissing anything. Rather I'm giving another explanation for these things other than Damien being a raving lunatic. I have no doubts but that Damien had mental problems. I just don't believe they were as severe as so many maintain. Are they more than simple teen angst? Maybe, but they are simply not to the level of homicidal mania - not even close!

 

[reedus23]

Most of Damien's violent actions were actually directed at others, be those his classmates, great danes etc. What about the threats he made towards his parents or his own descriptions of himself as 'homicidal' for instance .. all of it, just dismissed?

If so OK, but you have to understand that that does make your argument more flimsy as it appears that you wish to dismiss things that are known about Damien in order to shore up your argument for his innocence.

I think those are the types of things CR was saying. They are either unsubstantiated claims or they are simply words/statements with no substantiation. They should absolutely be considered and followed up on, which I would hope LE did, but as far as I know, they are unsubstantiated. I had asked before and I'll ask again, are there any police reports or anything of the like substantiating these claims?

 

[Mrs G Norris]

I could chase down links to witness statements about the great dane or to reports in Exhibit 500 for the attack on the classmate, but we've all read those documents here many times. I don't see much value in denying many examples of Echols past violent actions. It's all well documented. If you don't want to admit the truth of it, it simply weakens your own stance.

Summary here: http://wm3truth.com/damien-echols-profile/

 

[Ausgirl]

To be fair, I prefer to take into account the general hysteria of it all, the fact that local people came forward with statements that clearly were just ludicrous and untrue, or stupidly conflated, presenting those as facts to police.

Like Levitation Boy. Aaron Hutcheson - and his mother, Vicki. I would LOVE to see some of the ones that never even made it to the public eye. There'd likely be some doozies.

What would be interesting is, if somebody gathered up ALL known versions of the dog story (and there's a few..) and all other witness statements where there's multiple versions, and compared them. I think that by examining those, we might be able pick through them for what actually may have happened, if anything.

 

[reedus23]

I could chase down links to witness statements about the great dane or to reports in Exhibit 500 for the attack on the classmate, but we've all read those documents here many times. I don't see much value in denying many examples of Echols past violent actions. It's all well documented. If you don't want to admit the truth of it, it simply weakens your own stance.

Summary here: http://wm3truth.com/damien-echols-profile/

I admit such things were said or discussed but that doesn't mean they necessarily happened. It makes it worth checking out to see if there is anything to substantiate such claims. To my knowledge, there has been no such substantiation. I could say my brother used to be a girl but that doesn't make it true. Now show me pictures of him years ago as a woman and there is substantiation to the claims. In this case, show me something to support bare allegations/talk. Police reports? Pictures? Other witnesses? I didn't click your links, but I don't doubt Echols got into fights or even "attacked" classmates and that's something that IS taken into consideration.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

School

6/2/92

He has been suspended X7 due to negative behaviors in the classroom. Information does suggest that Damien has set fire to his academic classroom on two occasions, that he has also been truant, engaged in physical confrontations while on school grounds and has, often times, threatened to put “hexes” on school instructors. (236)

6/25/92

Supposedly, Damien chased a younger child with an ax and attempted to set a house on fire. He denied this behaviour. He reported that his girlfriend’s family reported this so that they could get him in trouble. He was also accused of beating a peer up at school.

Damien admits to a history of violence. He said prior to admission he did attempt to enucleate a peer’s eye at school. He was suspended subsequently from school. He was suspended on seven different occasions during that school year. He related that he was suspended on one occasion, because he set a fire in his science classroom and also would walk off on campus on several occasions. (92)

A handwritten note on a hospital form described one firestarting incident: “Wet toilet paper roll threw it against a light bulb it exploded started a fire rolled himself in a blanket and set [cut] der a chair watching bec [cut] was bored.” (178)

Eye gouging: http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/shadi.html

Threats related to this incident:

One of the threats was against my uncle [Kyle Perkins, age 16] whom had told him that if he had fought with me that my uncle would jump into and threatened him by saying if he jumped in he cut him to pieces and bury him in Deanna’s front yard.

Arrested May 1992

In May 1992, Damien Echols and Deanna Holcomb ran away together because Deanna’s parents forebade her to continue seeing him. They were discovered in a vacant mobile home at Lakeshore trailer park on the night of May 19. During the arrest, Echols made death threats against a police officer and Deanna’s father. Echols later told caseworkers that he and Deanna had made a suicide pact if they couldn’t be together. In a (likely embellished) account of his arrest, Echols later claimed

that he was able to work his fingers loose, moved over and was able to slip the safety off of the police officer’s gun which had been left in the police vehicle. Damien freely admitted that he had plans to shoot the girlfriend’s father if he acted in an aggressive manner toward the girl. (238)

Echols was charged with burglary, breaking and entering, disorderly conduct, sexual misconduct and terroristic threatening. He was held at the Craighead County Juvenile Detention Center in Jonesboro for two weeks.

http://callahan.8k.com/images/damiene/ccso_0592_report.JPG

Charter Hospital of Little Rock, June 1992

Charter admission papers noted, “There were also major concerns that this young man was exhibiting disturbed thinking. He has a history of extreme physical aggression toward others.”

characterized by impulsive hostility, an apprehensive mistrust of others and an edgy defensiveness against criticism. Fearing that others will dominate and possibly brutalize him, he puts forward a socially blunt and aggressive public posture. He fantasizes being all powerful so as to block others from possessing the means to be belittling and harmful. He believes that only alert vigilance and vigorous counter-action can prevent the malice of others. … The desire to gain power and demean others springs from animosity and a wish to vindicate past grievances. Although frequently unsuccessful in these aims, this teenager believes that past degradations may be undone by provoking fear and intimidation in others.

St. Vincent Hospital, Portland, September 1992

17 yr old male brought to ER by mother & natural father because [patient] has been increasing depressed & has been making statements daily that he was going to kill himself or others. Mom states Damien is on probation for terroristic threatening & breaking & entering.

St. Vincent released Damien on September 4. The final entry in his Physician’s Progress Report stated:

Because of the circumstances that precipitated the hospitalization and Damien’s threats, particularly towards his father and of course his mother, both parents do not feel that they wish to have him return to their home. They are frightened of him and what he can do, not only to them but to other children that reside in the home (2 others).

Craighead County Juvenile Detention Center, September 1992

Presently in detention in Jonesboro, picked up for violation of probation, threatened to slit parents throat and eat them alive. Transferred to Crittenden, one of the kids at the detention hall cut his wrists, Damien grabbed his arm and began to the suck the blood, smeared it over his body and said he’s a devil worshipping vampire. Says he’s not a vampire but a witch. He is in isolation and suicide watch.

Charter Hospital of Little Rock, September 1992

On Monday, September 14, 1992, Damien was transferred by court order from the detention center back to Charter Hospital of Little Rock. His initial assessment included the notations “family no support/no involvement at this time” and “could be a danger to others”. His case file lists his diagnosis as “psychotic” or “psychosis” on at least fifteen different pages.

Charter staff set out a series of goals for his treatment, such as “Damien will develop the ability to deal with angry, resistant feelings in a non acting out manner that is non-aggressive towards others during hospitalization” (405) and “patient will be able to distinguish reality as demonstrated by ability to appropriately respond to environment stimuli” (400).

East Arkansas Regional Mental Health Center. Sherry Dockins

Damien relates that he is trying to find a way to live on his own. He does not get along with step-father. Reveals a history of abuse as he talked of how he was treated as a child. Denies that this has influenced him stating “I just put it all inside.” Describes this as more than just anger — like rage. Sometimes he does “blow up”. Relates that when this happens the only solution is to “hurt someone”. Damien reports being told at the hospital that he could be another “Charles Manson or Ted Bundy”. When questioned on his feelings he states “I know I’m going to influence the world — people will remember me.” (50)

http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/img/exh500.html

 

[Ausgirl]

In a (likely embellished) account of his arrest, Echols later claimed

that he was able to work his fingers loose, moved over and was able to slip the safety off of the police officer’s gun which had been left in the police vehicle. Damien freely admitted that he had plans to shoot the girlfriend’s father if he acted in an aggressive manner toward the girl. (238)

This is the frustrating thing about Echols -- he's what I'd call (colloquially) a compulsive liar. Even when it was -obviously- against his best interests to do so, he lied time and again. He's still lying his *advertiser censored* off, at every available opportunity it seems.

That's why I have a hard time taking ANY statement of his as truth or indication of anything, in a solid sort of way. Even the ones that look very incriminating. Even the ones that are spoken to prove his own innocence. Anything out of his mouth is dubious, the end, IMO.

 

[Ausgirl]

characterized by impulsive hostility, an apprehensive mistrust of others and an edgy defensiveness against criticism. Fearing that others will dominate and possibly brutalize him, he puts forward a socially blunt and aggressive public posture. He fantasizes being all powerful so as to block others from possessing the means to be belittling and harmful. He believes that only alert vigilance and vigorous counter-action can prevent the malice of others. … The desire to gain power and demean others springs from animosity and a wish to vindicate past grievances. Although frequently unsuccessful in these aims, this teenager believes that past degradations may be undone by provoking fear and intimidation in others.

^ this makes me sad.. it sounds a bit like me, when I left home at age 13. I wasn't aggressive to the same degree, but the feelings were there. I see a lot of my own stuff that came from my home environment.

OT, sorry. I just feel really sad for kids, all kids, who have to walk around in the world wearing all the issues their crappy or unfit parents give them.

Not making excuses for the wrongs they do. But it is sad.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

With Damien I also notice he tends to accuse other men of raping boys, teens, other men .. it also makes me wonder what he suffered as a boy, and agree it is sad.

 

[kyleb]

I've seen no evidence that Echols was sexually absused himself, but here's a bit of his mental heath records from almost exactly a year before the murders regarding what he watched his sister suffer through, and how he felt about it:

It appears that the Echols family has extreme problems related to an on going history of sexual abuse, suspected emotions problems and undefined interpersonal relationship disorders. Mr. Echols admits to being overly affectionate with Michelle and to have been charged for indecently exposing himself to an older daughter, however, Mrs. Echols states she feels Michelle is lying and she has been skipping school and sexually acting out. Michelle alleges to have several Miscarriages although the mother denies it. Damien Echols on the other hand, holds his adopted father in low regard and feels the allegations are in fact true. Mrs. Echols states Damein is in need of counseling and evaluation as he feels he is "smarter than everyone else" and will verbalize this fact. He also reportedly has little regard for others and stated he feels people have no true feeling for each other. Their main purpose is to use and bring harm to others around them. Mrs. Echols reports Damien has attempted to fight wiht her on occasion.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

You know one thing I will agree on, he probably WAS the smartest person in the room at home, it wouldn't have been too difficult IMO.

 

[kyleb]

Sure, but he was obviously too stupid to realize plenty of other people are smarter him, as if he had he wouldn't have imaged he could get away with murder.