The Zahra Project

[Allusonz]

Not sure what you mean by foip issue but what exactly do you think you are going to accomplish with changes of address? I have explained everything I can and yet you somehow think this will protect our children? I can tell you it won't make any difference! We can't follow these people around! I don't really care if they lived on Main Street one time and First Street the next time. What are you trying to achieve?

truly not sure what can be accomplished and have appreciated all your explanations, but i think it certainly would be helpful if LE could have a heads up when they first start to explore a missing child whether there is past history will CPP and the family

without having to pull the SW at least they would know that something has occurred

 

[NC Analyzer]

If you want LE to check to see if there are children in every home when they respond to a call, you are going to have problems with 4th ammendment rights. We can't change the constitution here folks! If Zahra's parents, (and I use that term with a frown) had already killed her, don't you think they would have told LE that she was staying somewhere else when they went to the home? People aren't stupid...well, some are, but people know how to CYA when they are talking to cops...especially if they recently killed their child. Address change or not, nothing would have changed that.

 

[NC Analyzer]

We do provide LE the CPS history in the cases of a missing child...we don't provide them to the public.

 

[NC Analyzer]

truly not sure what can be accomplished and have appreciated all your explanations, but i think it certainly would be helpful if LE could have a heads up when they first start to explore a missing child whether there is past history will CPP and the family

without having to pull the SW at least they would know that something has occurred

I just wanted to address your last statement..."without having to pull the SW...snip" It is my JOB to be available for any ongoing situation that involves children and LE. I am an Investigator. I don't really consider myself to be a Social Worker in the general sense of the word. I have a background in Criminal Justice, Law and Social Work, but I do what I do because I don't have the patience of a Social Worker on a daily basis. I am an Investigator...out and about in the community, the schools, homes. I collect forensic evidence, interview witnesses and collaterals, gather information, develop my court case if I remove children, talk to the families, their relatives, day care providers, friends, neighbors. It isn't a problem for me to respond to a LE call.

 

[Salem]

~Respectfully snipped and bbm~

We know they move often. If they remain in our county we can find them...simple. We don't have to do that very often because they are told to notify us when they move and the majority of them do so...(usually because we also have their benefits, Food Stamps, Medicaid, etc) That's it. They are able to be found, especially if they have children in school. If they leave our county during an investigation, it doesn't take much to find out where they moved to. Again, we have many resources to locate a client. We notify that county, immediately, because there is an open investigation and the family needs to be checked. That county sees the family in their county. That county advises our county within 7 days (or 10, I'd have to look that up, but usually done a lot sooner) as to their findings.

I agree this may be the current policy, however, I STRONGLY DISAGREE that this happens as it is supposed to. We have seen, over and over again, right here on our very pages, where a family has moved to escape CPS contact and there has been NO follow up at the family's new location, and a child has died.

These policies need to become law and they need to be tightened up so that there are consequences for the minor infractions on all fronts.

:twocents:,

Salem


PS - I am in and out today, but will try to watch this thread.

 

[Salem]

~Respectfully snipped and bbm ~

Regarding reports duplicated to LE:
When LE is called out on a domestic call, (or any other call), it doesn't matter to them whether there are kids in the home or not. They deal with the situation at hand as needed. The law states LE MUST notify us immediately if they find children in the home where domestic violence/drugs/filth, etc. occurred. If the situation is volatile when LE arrives and children are in the home, we are called immediately to do whatever we need to do to care for the children on the spot. LE and CPS investigators often work hand in hand on many situations. LE doesn't care if kids live at a specific address because perhaps they are at grandma's house when they are called out....No children, not a CPS issue. So, unless the parents are going to be arrested and removed or children are at risk, LE doesn't have reason to notify us. If children are at risk, LE calls us immediately to make arrangements to place the child in a kinship arrangement with grandma or other relative. I can assure you, LE isn't going to be checking a stack of alleged CPS allegations just to see if kids MIGHT live in the home on every call they respond to.

Yes - LE notifies CPS - but CPS does not notify LE.

However, it is my contention that LE is unaware of alleged or potential child abuse in a home, where the reporting party has only reported to CPS. Depending upon the type of abuse, CPS has up to 10 days to respond. What happens on Day 3, when LE is called for a domestic disturbance and the adult parties are okay? No asks to see the child(ren), so everyone is calm and LE leaves while the child lays, unable to breathe, in the back room.

Or the parties are fighting in the parking lot and kids are in the home, alone. Who asks to see them?

I agree that CPS has policies in place, but again, I STRONGLY DISAGREE that the policies are as effective as they could be or that they are carried out the way they should be.

Making them LAW would give them strength and provide for accountability.

Salem

 

[NC Analyzer]

~Respectfully snipped and bbm~

I agree this may be the current policy, however, I STRONGLY DISAGREE that this happens as it is supposed to. We have seen, over and over again, right here on our very pages, where a family has moved to escape CPS contact and there has been NO follow up at the family's new location, and a child has died.

These policies need to become law and they need to be tightened up so that there are consequences for the minor infractions on all fronts.

:twocents:,

Salem

Respectfully, its not "over and over" that this happens. The cases you read about are but a tiny fraction of how many families actually try to run to escape CPS contact. Like I said before, we do have a system that addresses finding a fleeing family, so we do make every effort to locate them. I would venture a guess that you aren't even aware that we have an internal system connected to other states similar to an Amber Alert that notifies us when a family is suspected of leaving the state and Be On The Lookout for them. Granted, there are bad professionals in this field...as there are in ALL fields...cops, politicians, school teachers, coaches, etc. etc. But we can only deal with the bad ones one at a time. And what makes you think there are no consequences to workers who have had infractions? Is your employee record public knowledge? You have no idea what was said or done in these cases. I know of some highly publicized cases where the consequences of a workers decision was published...completely inaccurate information.

 

[NC Analyzer]

~Respectfully snipped and bbm ~

Yes - LE notifies CPS - but CPS does not notify LE.

However, it is my contention that LE is unaware of alleged or potential child abuse in a home, where the reporting party has only reported to CPS. Depending upon the type of abuse, CPS has up to 10 days to respond. What happens on Day 3, when LE is called for a domestic disturbance and the adult parties are okay? No asks to see the child(ren), so everyone is calm and LE leaves while the child lays, unable to breathe, in the back room.

Or the parties are fighting in the parking lot and kids are in the home, alone. Who asks to see them?

I agree that CPS has policies in place, but again, I STRONGLY DISAGREE that the policies are as effective as they could be or that they are carried out the way they should be.

Making them LAW would give them strength and provide for accountability.

Salem

Sorry, I don't know where you live, but it is FALSE that we have up to 10 days to respond to a report!!!! Reports are screened based on the allegations...they are assigned as an Immediate, a 24-hour report, or a 48-hour report in the case of minor allegations. NEVER 10-DAYS!!! Where do you live anyway? And by the way, our policy in NC IS LAW. I refer to it as our policy because that is the portion that pertains to CPS rules...but it is the LAW!!

 

[NC Analyzer]

~Respectfully snipped and bbm ~

Yes - LE notifies CPS - but CPS does not notify LE.

However, it is my contention that LE is unaware of alleged or potential child abuse in a home, where the reporting party has only reported to CPS. Depending upon the type of abuse, CPS has up to 10 days to respond. What happens on Day 3, when LE is called for a domestic disturbance and the adult parties are okay? No asks to see the child(ren), so everyone is calm and LE leaves while the child lays, unable to breathe, in the back room.

Or the parties are fighting in the parking lot and kids are in the home, alone. Who asks to see them?

I agree that CPS has policies in place, but again, I STRONGLY DISAGREE that the policies are as effective as they could be or that they are carried out the way they should be.

Making them LAW would give them strength and provide for accountability.

Salem

Also, we DO notify LE on every case that involves abuse, neglect. We don't notify them about REPORTS containing allegations. We also file a DA report on abuse/neglect cases. It is up to the DA whether or not the State wants to press charges. And yes, LE also conducts a separate investigation...and we compare notes and information on every single abuse or neglect case we incurr. You are misinformed...at least misinformed about NC laws and policy.

 

[Salem]

So if the system is so great, how come it so often fails?

Salem

 

[tlcya]

My own opinion, the system is only as good as the people who run it and the funds alloted it.

No system will ever be perfect, but the one we've currently got in place sure has plenty of room for improvement IMO

 

[Kimster]

(Salem, I have a question kinda along the same lines).

What areas of CPS do you feel needs to be changed and why? If address alerts won't work for example, what would?

I think about our teachers here in my state. They've told me many times that they are governed by certain laws that make teaching less effective.

 

[NC Analyzer]

Why does the system fail?

There are several reasons, but I know from personal experience:

WE ARE BURIED IN GOVERNMENT PAPERWORK. We have very little time to see our families because we have all these paperwork requirements. I have done many jobs in my lifetme but I have never seen anything like the amount of paperwork we are required to do. The paperwork alone is more than a full time job and leaves very little to take care of the job we are given. Which leads to the second problem, (and many of you have mentioned it), WE ARE UNDERSTAFFED. Even when our agency is running at the alloted number of Investigators and Case Managers, there simply isn't enough people to do this job. And usually we have less than our alloted number of people due to burn out and a high turnover rate. Every Investigator is supposed to have no more than 12 open cases...yet we are taxed with 35-50 cases year round. I can complete 2-3 investigations, close them and be assigned 3-4 new investigations...in the same week! I'm a senior Investigator at my agency. I can turn cases quickly and efficiently because I don't have a lot of questions that need to be run by a supervisor, yet I currently am holding 38 cases. Now, we are required to see our kids 1X week (that is a standard that is set by the agency, not the policy). If every family has 2-3 kids, with one at home, some in elementary school or in daycare I have to go to 2-3 different places to see those kids...thats approx. 100 kids a week....AND MAINTAIN THAT DAMMM PAPERWORK! It simply isn't possible.
We are responsible for our own court filings, subpoena's, discovery, etc. etc. plus required to give testimony. Court day is Thurs in my county. This is an all day thing...can't see kids...have to be in court. If new reports come in when we are in court or out seeing kids, we are assigned the new report...usually 2-hours to initiate a new case...IF everyone is in one place because ALL family members have to be seen the day of case initiation and the home needs to be evaluated....so could be longer than 2-hours. Then back to seeing kids and MAINTAIN THAT DAMMMM PAPERWORK. If you fall behind on paperwork, your supervisor, office personnel and program managers are on you...it has to be completed by such and such a time...I have forms to open cases, forms to close cases, forms that track my referrals and recommendations, forms that track my forms...(and no, I'm not kidding). We have to account for our time in 5-minute increments EVERY DAY. Now this doesn't include the phone calls, emails, CPS history of the family, DA reports, LE reports, order records (medical, psychological, 911 calls, criminal histories, etc. etc.) We are required to speak to the father in all absent parent cases...try finding some of these dads. We are required to attend training several times a year. We have unit meetings, staffing meetings, department meetings, agency meetings...all mandatory. Every Wednesday, is staffing (to close or discuss cases with the group)...this is usually an all day event. Now, if I have court and staffing 2 days a week and I have to open 2 new cases that week, and do all that DAMMM PAPERWORK, how much time do you all think I have to see my kids?????? And that is how they fall through the cracks. Folks, I'm a highly energetic person, but I hit the ground running every day and don't stop until I leave...usually much later than the agency closes. I bring home paperwork. I work, and work, and then I work some more. I trust my gut instincts about my families and pray often that it doesn't let me down so I can make sure I focus on the kids that I believe are at the highest risk factor. I will always find time for them, even if it means working until 10 pm....But seriously, how many of you think you could do this....every day....because we also rotate on-call, meaning we have to answer all after hour calls for 7 days...no time off.

 

[NC Analyzer]

I think its important to add...if I'm sick, no one else sees my kids. If I leave for vacation or holiday, no one else sees my kids. If I have to do a removal, its usually a 2-day process with all the paperwork and court, no one sees my kids. And the cases just keep on coming. If I'm on call and out until 3-4-5am with a family, I'm expected to be in the office at starting time to file the report and get the paperwork together. There is NO ONE, except you, to do your job...other Investigators/Case Managers are taxed with their own overload and cannot take your people. Besides that, they don't know the problems or the family dynamics and don't have time to get filled in. We are overworked every minute of the day....I rarely take a lunch break, even though we are mandated to take an hour...to prevent burn out....but seriously, I don't have a spare hour to eat. I actually feel fortunate because I'm older than many of my co-workers, I don't have a husband at home and my 14-yr old daughter understands what I do (and has a cell phone, lol) so I'm not dealing with a lot of the family situations they are dealing with. I can't imagine being married with this job. I can't imagine having young children with this job, but many CPS workers do have family and young children. They have to be there for emergencies, etc. We try to help one another, but its tough.

 

[Salem]

Just for anyone that is interested, we have a thread for discussing how CPS could be improved. I have not read there lately, but here is the link: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94524"]Overhaul of Social Services? Stop these tragedies before they happen??? - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


On another note: NC - I am hearing your frustration and I can relate. I often work with social workers and I know they are frustrated.

There are things that can be done to make the system work better. We just need to identify them and then get them implemented.

I think any proposals have to work with the constitutional rights of the parents, be compassionate, yet responsive, and protect the kids. There are a lot of kids out there that need protection.

Salem

ETA: I apologize for popping in and out all the time. It seems everytime I come to this thread, RL wants my attention. I will be back

 

[NC Analyzer]

Just for anyone that is interested, we have a thread for discussing how CPS could be improved. I have not read there lately, but here is the link: Overhaul of Social Services? Stop these tragedies before they happen??? - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


On another note: NC - I am hearing your frustration and I can relate. I often work with social workers and I know they are frustrated.

There are things that can be done to make the system work better. We just need to identify them and then get them implemented.

I think any proposals have to work with the constitutional rights of the parents, be compassionate, yet responsive, and protect the kids. There are a lot of kids out there that need protection.

Salem

ETA: I apologize for popping in and out all the time. It seems everytime I come to this thread, RL wants my attention. I will be back

Thank you Salem. I did read the CPS thread, most of the posts are quite old, but I will post if the subject matter turns to ideas for reform. I do have a couple of ideas that I will leave here for thought:

One of the biggest things that would save us a considerable amount of time is unfounded reports. If I go out to a home to initiate and assess the family and find that there was a retaliation report made against the family and NOTHING is indicated that there are any problems with the children or the home, I would like to simply close that record. But no, we aren't allowed to do that without interviewing at least 2 sources, ordering criminal histories, 911 records and medical records on the children. Which means open all the paperwork necessary for a complete record and documenting (dictation) everything. If I can't get this all done within 7 days, I have to see the children again (more documenting and dictation). Pretty soon that family is at the bottom of my pile because they are not a high risk and I see them as often as time permits (more dictation every time) but I don't see them often enough to close the case....so its a vicious circle and the case never gets closed. Which is also one of the reasons a lot of people hate us...because we have to remain "in their business" even though we have no reason. This needs to change because we have a lot of retaliation or unfounded reports. Parents often do this during a divorce thinking we will take the child from the custodial parent and place the child with the non-custodial parent. WRONG! We also have neighbor and family disputes and the common "I'm calling DSS" threats. We often have people who think that a child shouldn't be living the way the child is living...sorry, that's a bias. If a parent is providing for the child's basic needs, ie food, medical, education, supervision and is not abusing or neglecting them, it isn't a CPS issue. Poverty is not a crime. Just because someone thinks they can do a better job or the child should have more, doesn't mean it will happen that way. People have rights. We cannot mandate they live a certain way. Just because you or I would have it different, doesn't mean those parents don't have the right to raise that child the best they can. Allow us to close these cases without additional requirements!

Another area that bugs the crap out of me is sexual curiosity with young children. Does everyone know that we are required to respond immediately to any allegations of sexual abuse...which only makes sense? BUT, if the allegations are about 5yr old Bobby touching 3yr old Susie's privates, I have to follow through with Child Medical Evaluations (conducted by a forensic child psychologist followed by a medical exam) AND file a DA report on Bobby? I'm serious. This is complete BS and a waste of time; It can also be traumatic for the child and results in more dictation and paperwork.

 

[westsidefox64]

I have a question to go with the post above. I see these things being a problem as well. Who do we go to, to get these and other issues resolved. Is it considered a US government or state government issue? Does each state have different guild lines?

 

[Oriah]

Thank you Salem. I did read the CPS thread, most of the posts are quite old, but I will post if the subject matter turns to ideas for reform. I do have a couple of ideas that I will leave here for thought:

One of the biggest things that would save us a considerable amount of time is unfounded reports. If I go out to a home to initiate and assess the family and find that there was a retaliation report made against the family and NOTHING is indicated that there are any problems with the children or the home, I would like to simply close that record. But no, we aren't allowed to do that without interviewing at least 2 sources, ordering criminal histories, 911 records and medical records on the children. Which means open all the paperwork necessary for a complete record and documenting (dictation) everything. If I can't get this all done within 7 days, I have to see the children again (more documenting and dictation). Pretty soon that family is at the bottom of my pile because they are not a high risk and I see them as often as time permits (more dictation every time) but I don't see them often enough to close the case....so its a vicious circle and the case never gets closed. Which is also one of the reasons a lot of people hate us...because we have to remain "in their business" even though we have no reason. This needs to change because we have a lot of retaliation or unfounded reports. Parents often do this during a divorce thinking we will take the child from the custodial parent and place the child with the non-custodial parent. WRONG! We also have neighbor and family disputes and the common "I'm calling DSS" threats. We often have people who think that a child shouldn't be living the way the child is living...sorry, that's a bias. If a parent is providing for the child's basic needs, ie food, medical, education, supervision and is not abusing or neglecting them, it isn't a CPS issue. Poverty is not a crime. Just because someone thinks they can do a better job or the child should have more, doesn't mean it will happen that way. People have rights. We cannot mandate they live a certain way. Just because you or I would have it different, doesn't mean those parents don't have the right to raise that child the best they can. Allow us to close these cases without additional requirements!

Another area that bugs the crap out of me is sexual curiosity with young children. Does everyone know that we are required to respond immediately to any allegations of sexual abuse...which only makes sense? BUT, if the allegations are about 5yr old Bobby touching 3yr old Susie's privates, I have to follow through with Child Medical Evaluations (conducted by a forensic child psychologist followed by a medical exam) AND file a DA report on Bobby? I'm serious. This is complete BS and a waste of time; It can also be traumatic for the child and results in more dictation and paperwork.

NC Analyzer, I just wanted to pop in quickly and say I feel your pain and frustration.
I'm in an entirely different profession, but at times we cross paths; and I know all too well what it's like to work long and hard hours within a system that bucks you at every turn. And then be criticized (or the system you have to work within criticized)... all while trying to do the best for the child, working with coworkers who are also trying to do their best, etc....

So just wanted to say thank you for all you do.

 

[tlcya]

Thank you Salem. I did read the CPS thread, most of the posts are quite old, but I will post if the subject matter turns to ideas for reform. I do have a couple of ideas that I will leave here for thought:

One of the biggest things that would save us a considerable amount of time is unfounded reports. If I go out to a home to initiate and assess the family and find that there was a retaliation report made against the family and NOTHING is indicated that there are any problems with the children or the home, I would like to simply close that record. But no, we aren't allowed to do that without interviewing at least 2 sources, ordering criminal histories, 911 records and medical records on the children. Which means open all the paperwork necessary for a complete record and documenting (dictation) everything. If I can't get this all done within 7 days, I have to see the children again (more documenting and dictation). Pretty soon that family is at the bottom of my pile because they are not a high risk and I see them as often as time permits (more dictation every time) but I don't see them often enough to close the case....so its a vicious circle and the case never gets closed. Which is also one of the reasons a lot of people hate us...because we have to remain "in their business" even though we have no reason. This needs to change because we have a lot of retaliation or unfounded reports. Parents often do this during a divorce thinking we will take the child from the custodial parent and place the child with the non-custodial parent. WRONG! We also have neighbor and family disputes and the common "I'm calling DSS" threats. We often have people who think that a child shouldn't be living the way the child is living...sorry, that's a bias. If a parent is providing for the child's basic needs, ie food, medical, education, supervision and is not abusing or neglecting them, it isn't a CPS issue. Poverty is not a crime. Just because someone thinks they can do a better job or the child should have more, doesn't mean it will happen that way. People have rights. We cannot mandate they live a certain way. Just because you or I would have it different, doesn't mean those parents don't have the right to raise that child the best they can. Allow us to close these cases without additional requirements!

Another area that bugs the crap out of me is sexual curiosity with young children. Does everyone know that we are required to respond immediately to any allegations of sexual abuse...which only makes sense? BUT, if the allegations are about 5yr old Bobby touching 3yr old Susie's privates, I have to follow through with Child Medical Evaluations (conducted by a forensic child psychologist followed by a medical exam) AND file a DA report on Bobby? I'm serious. This is complete BS and a waste of time; It can also be traumatic for the child and results in more dictation and paperwork.

BBM While I totally get that you are bound by sometimes very cumbersome paperwork and follow up requirements on cases you feel are unfounded, retaliatory, or just sexual curiosity, not all cases where Bobby touching Suzie ARE a waste of time. I had an experience wherein I caught a female relative (age 6) engaged in very explicit sexual behavior with my then 3 year old son. I reported. The activity I saw was not curiousity but was extremely graphic and specific sexual act being performed on my child. I did not report this incident lightly. I understood the can of worms I was opening and the spotlight I was placing on our families. Turns out the female "peretrator" had been engaging in this sort of very graphic sexual acting out since the age of 3 and it had never been reported or investigated as the adults around the child assumed it was simply "playing doctor (simple normal sexual curiousity).

This young child was interviewed and would never divulge the what, who, when of what caused her to act out in this way, but I assure you, something or someone did. That female relative is a grandchild. I lose sleep to this day worrying that she has been or may continued to be abused by someone.

So while I hear your frustration, and I do not envy you having to try to do your job effectively with the strictures you must operate under, I bristled a bit when I read the BBM.

I am sorry if this is off topic. To bring things back to the Zahra project, I think it is an admirable goal. I also think it could be ineffective if the founders of the project do not really do the research to discover exactly what things are already in place but not enforced, are good ideas in theory but would not work in practice, etc. I really hope that they get good input from a number of different agencies that cross paths in the interest of protecting children and take the information garnered from these experts into cosideration when making their proposal.

In Zahra's instance, we had a situation where EB was apparently well versed in her "rights" and familiar enough through her past history with DSS to know how to evade the investigation that was most probably being done on her regarding Zahra. I think that is what this project hopes to deter in future. The gaps or holes in protection we, the public, perceive in the system that was unable to prevent this tragedy.

My own personal thoughts are, I think DSS needs to be in the child protection business rather than in the family reunifcation business. That may not be a popular stance but it is mine. I am not suggeting that parents never get their children back. I am suggeting that the years spend trying to foster kids while parents who have no interest in following their plan or attending the assigned parenting classes or in general do not take any of the steps required of them to reunite with their children until the eleventh hour are a waste of taxpayer money and valuable time for those children. Suddenly, when the child is situated in a long term placement or hevean forbid, someone wants to adopt them permanently, low and behold, mom is in a big ole rush to be a parent, after years of blowing off this child. I wish that agencies like DSS were more about the child's best interest and less about the parents rights. I do understand that parents rights must be observed but wish the scales weren's so tipped in their favor and were more about the child's rights.

 

[believe09]

I am not going to speak for NC Analyzer, of course, but I saw the statement regarding sexual curiousity not as a cop out for actual sexual abuse.

I am very sorry for your experience tlcox-I suppose in our world of hypersensitivity, I can see people being freaked out by normal sexual curiousity vs actual indicators of sexual abuse. Clearly your situation was something different.

I can only speak for myself-if it were a relative or mine or my own child that I witnessed in your situation TL, off to the pediatrician the child would go after some gentle questioning by me. Physicians are mandatory reporters, and I would trust mine to elicit some kind of information from my children if I could not. But that is my ped-not all are equal.

I think it might be easy for us to view these situations where tighter controls seem warranted with a lens of "well if one child is saved, then it is worth all of the extra work." I think that is true, but then we need to provide the tools to accomplish the extra work.