Theory Thread - What happened at Pistorius' house on the night of Feb. 13, 2013?

[Karmady]

IMO, the shirt appears to be on backwards in the photo taken on the scene.(see ttached minus the full head view)

However, the 2 photos that were circulating around the forum (attached) appear to be very similar except one is embedded in the autopsy report and is referred to as photo 50 in the autopsy report. It shows the front of the shirt and the title of the photos is:
"Photo 50 Position of the hole in the vest worn by the deceased during the incident"

Van Staden photographed her on the scene with clothes and without. She would have been removed from the scene without clothes.

IF the shirt was on backwards when Van Staden photographed her
AND IF the front does contain tissue and bone fragments on the right,
then the ONLY inference that can be drawn is that OP switched the shirt from front to back AFTER his murderous rampage.

Why? I can only guess that if it happened it was to cover up something he felt might be very incriminating.

Wait..so the idea that her shirt was on backwards is speculation based on looking at photos? It's been stated as fact here so many times I thought it was part of the forensics. Is it not?

 

[lisasalinger]

IMO, the shirt appears to be on backwards in the photo taken on the scene.(see ttached minus the full head view)

However, the 2 photos that were circulating around the forum (attached) appear to be very similar except one is embedded in the autopsy report and is referred to as photo 50 in the autopsy report. It shows the front of the shirt and the title of the photos is:
"Photo 50 Position of the hole in the vest worn by the deceased during the incident"

Van Staden photographed her on the scene with clothes and without. She would have been removed from the scene without clothes.

IF the shirt was on backwards when Van Staden photographed her
AND IF the front does contain tissue and bone fragments on the right,
then the ONLY inference that can be drawn is that OP switched the shirt from front to back AFTER his murderous rampage.

Why? I can only guess that if it happened it was to cover up something he felt might be very incriminating.

I can see why it may appear to some that her shirt is on backwards when looking at the head pic, but I actually just think that the tank top was pushed up, possibly when people were examining her wounds. Especially when laying on your back on a flat surface, and being somewhat busty... your shirt can rise like that. We know that she was wearing OP's clothes, so it would have been loose on her.

The front of the shirt, when seen in the autopsy photos, definitely indicates that it was worn the proper way when shot.

Here are my notes from Mangena's testimony:

Her right arm was raised at the time that it was hit based on the entrance and exit wounds, and the fragment holes and tissue found on her tank top. There was a very large exit wound out the back of the arm that caused the tissue to spatter on the top right of her shirt. It also likely caused the bruising found on her right nipple and abrasions on her torso.

I just don't see OP having any reason to turn her shirt around.

 

[Murphys_Law]

Wait..so the idea that her shirt was on backwards is speculation based on looking at photos? It's been stated as fact here so many times I thought it was part of the forensics. Is it not?

Yes that is correct -- To my knowledge, it has all been speculation based on the photos, in addition to Roux's inference there were holes in the back of the shirt while re-examining Prof Botha on the back bruises, at which point Nel interjected and said "there were no holes in the back of the shirt".

I agree with Lisa explanation that the shirt could have been shoved up, thus appearing to be on backwards. My opinion was only that it appeared backwards...not stated as a fact.

Then, my hypothesis, a conditional one, was that IF the shirt was on backwards, it had to have been done after the killing (which I agree seems absurd) but it does answer the question of when it could have been done.

Bottom line: I don't know if it was on backwards or not -- more information is required. But if it was on backwards, I have a strong hunch when it was done.

 

[Murphys_Law]

I can see why it may appear to some that her shirt is on backwards when looking at the head pic, but I actually just think that the tank top was pushed up, possibly when people were examining her wounds. Especially when laying on your back on a flat surface, and being somewhat busty... your shirt can rise like that. We know that she was wearing OP's clothes, so it would have been loose on her.

The front of the shirt, when seen in the autopsy photos, definitely indicates that it was worn the proper way when shot.

Here are my notes from Mangena's testimonyooo

Her right arm was raised at the time that it was hit based on the entrance and exit wounds, and the fragment holes and tissue found on her tank top. There was a very large exit wound out the back of the arm that caused the tissue to spatter on the top right of her shirt. It also likely caused the bruising found on her right nipple and abrasions on her torso.

I just don't see OP having any reason to turn her shirt around.

BIB1 -- yes, I agree strongly with you.

BB2 -- After Dr. Saayman's testimony, some media reports spoke of the shirt being torn:

Saayman also examined a sleeveless black vest, torn in some areas and scattered with blood and tissue fragments, including bone. Upon initial inspection, Saayman found a piece of a bullet tangled in the clothing, which was given to investigators.

Source:
Reeva’s head wound fatal: pathologist - Crime & Courts | IOL News | IOL.co.za
http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/reeva-s-head-wound-fatal-pathologist-1.1659020#.U1kZvu8U-ez

Would a tear in shirt in a specific area be sufficient motivation to change the shirt around? I don't know.

 

[homegirl]

The discussion here about the wounds on Reeva’s back Made me realize that I left out the ricochet from bullet B in my recreation of the prosecution version. It is possible that the wounds on RS back came from the air gun. As Lisa said, the argument could have started in another part of the house. That bedroom door was seriously abused.

I still think there is a good chance that they were caused by bullet fragments and that is the states case. I hope you guys are not getting sick of my graphics. They help me to visualize and test things out.

The first is photo 1 from the prosecution sequence I did of the shooting. The bullet and ricochet paths( in red) are quite imprecise, but a rough guess as to how the fragments could have hit Reeva's back. And of course they are behind her. I had to draw them in front so that the path could be seen. I'm thinking that she could have been positioned somewhere between where the red and green figures are, when she was hit with the fragments. The green figure is probably close to where she was though. This would have happened while she continued to fall sideways, after landing atop the mag rack.



I decided to try using the photo taken of the laser aimed at the mark made by bullet B. The screen shot is terribly blurry, but the only one available. At least I had the bullet path to work with. I placed the figure where I thought it would be on the magazine rack. It corresponds to the green figure in the photo above. You have to kind of imagine that you can see the mag rack and that she is behind the toilet rather than floating in space.

If I have these positions anywhere near right, That bullet came very close to hitting her in the head. It is chilling.
JMO

 

[swissmonster]

Oscar has never wavered from the core of his story unless you count his turning the corner toward the bathroom and his mind going “blank” as changing the core of his story. A lot of the nuances of the night have changed during Oscars cross examination. I hardly think the distinction between a “low tone” and “whisper” has an ounce of value before the judge. Except perhaps to annoy her as to why Nel would waste her time on such a distinction. All the inconsistencies are not proof of a fight which ended in Oscar intentionally killing Reeva.

If events took place similar in fashion in which Oscar portrayed them, then just possibly, I think he is trying to make sense of it under cross examination. He says things that are totally physically impossible and he either believes them or he recklessly thinks he can perpetuate a total fraud on the judge. I think he is dull but not imbecilic.

Why would anyone that understands the basic concept of perjury, the law of physics and the charges against him deny that his finger was in the trigger of the gun involved in the restaurant incident? It makes no sense other than he is slightly delusional in order to preserve his own self-image and sanity or he is a total narcissist who cannot even fathom that his version of events would be questioned.

He seems to have a rigid concept of self and expectations of perfection.

In other words Oscar simply cannot mentally accept that he killed Reeva all because a noise sent him into a psychological paranoid frenzy. So he fills in the story to make him seem less culpable.

Personally the more I see of Oscar under the stress of cross examination, the more I read about his inability to accept consequences for undeniable actions he has taken the more I think that he may have not known it was Reeva in the bathroom. He is a man of passion, he possessed world class athletic abilities, he is young, indulgent and hot tempered, he acts without thinking in the heat of the moment.
I can see Oscars story having a seed of truth that he tried to form into a story that in his own mind did not make him a reactionary hot head that killed his girlfriend in a foolish panicked moment of paranoia.

Reeva could have been yelling, “It’s me Oscar it’s me.” but Oscar could have crossed over the threshold of being able to discern anything other than an innocent trip to the bathroom into a life and death situation.

Reality may have dawned on him may while he was firing the gun thus the 4 shots instead of emptying the clip.

I do think that Oscar is dull enough that Nel confuses him easily. And I think Nel’s style of prosecuting is not aimed at getting to the truth but to creating Nel’s truth in the mouth of the witness, at least in Oscar’s case as it is the only time I have seen Nel.

The whining, crying, retching, blubbering Oscar may be the real Oscar. He could feel terrible that he let his paranoia get the best of him and that he did kill Reeva in a panicked fear filled hysterical moment.

Just a thought.

Right at the beginning of the trial I thought pretty much the same. As far as, he never sought to identify her whereabouts in the bedroom is quite simply because he is so self obsessed and selfish that the thought never crossed his mind. He thought about Oscar only. Running around the room playing rambo worrying about ol'Oscar.
I do not think this at all anymore. Thanks to the cross, I think cold blooded premeditated murder.

 

[Karmady]

Yes that is correct -- To my knowledge, it has all been speculation based on the photos, in addition to Roux's inference there were holes in the back of the shirt while re-examining Prof Botha on the back bruises, at which point Nel interjected and said "there were no holes in the back of the shirt".

I agree with Lisa explanation that the shirt could have been shoved up, thus appearing to be on backwards. My opinion was only that it appeared backwards...not stated as a fact.

Then, my hypothesis, a conditional one, was that IF the shirt was on backwards, it had to have been done after the killing (which I agree seems absurd) but it does answer the question of when it could have been done.

Bottom line: I don't know if it was on backwards or not -- more information is required. But if it was on backwards, I have a strong hunch when it was done.

Thanks for clarifying. I don't recall whose posts I'd seen on the topic. I wanted to know because one of the strongest bits of "evidence" that led me to guilty of something was the shirt on backward. My thought was that it could indicate she was getting ready to leave in the dark and/or in a hurry.

jmo

 

[anagrammy]

(snipped for relevance)

You're entitled to your opinion, but I completely reject as beyond absurd that Oscar turned her shirt around. No reason to do it since he admitted shooting her while she was locked in the toilet. jmo

Yes there is. We know Oscar has a sensitive stomach. Perhaps he pulled her shirt up over her head and twisted it so he didn't have to see her face/hair as he dragged her out and made phone calls, went online, etc. This would also explain the injury to one nipple, which was said to be an abrasion, caused by friction. When he heard people arriving, he hastily pulled her shirt back down, back to front, and poised at the top of the stairs, ready for the performance of his life.

 

[Cymbaline]

Where is the top sheet to the master bedrooms bed?

Also, does anyone have any pictures from Album 9?

 

[liesbeth]

The discussion here about the wounds on Reeva’s back Made me realize that I left out the ricochet from bullet B in my recreation of the prosecution version. It is possible that the wounds on RS back came from the air gun. As Lisa said, the argument could have started in another part of the house. That bedroom door was seriously abused.

I still think there is a good chance that they were caused by bullet fragments and that is the states case. I hope you guys are not getting sick of my graphics. They help me to visualize and test things out.

The first is photo 1 from the prosecution sequence I did of the shooting. The bullet and ricochet paths( in red) are quite imprecise, but a rough guess as to how the fragments could have hit Reeva's back. And of course they are behind her. I had to draw them in front so that the path could be seen. I'm thinking that she could have been positioned somewhere between where the red and green figures are, when she was hit with the fragments. The green figure is probably close to where she was though. This would have happened while she continued to fall sideways, after landing atop the mag rack.

View attachment 43276

I decided to try using the photo taken of the laser aimed at the mark made by bullet B. The screen shot is terribly blurry, but the only one available. At least I had the bullet path to work with. I placed the figure where I thought it would be on the magazine rack. It corresponds to the green figure in the photo above. You have to kind of imagine that you can see the mag rack and that she is behind the toilet rather than floating in space.

If I have these positions anywhere near right, That bullet came very close to hitting her in the head. It is chilling.
JMO

View attachment 43278

Great work, homegirl. Thank you so much. I wish I could press the thank you button 100 times.

Just a quick note. I think the bullet ricocheted twice. Once against the one wall as shown in your image, then across the corner of the two walls to another mark on the other wall, and then down to her back.

Edit: Found a link and images of it at lisa's blog:
https://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/19/oscar-pistorius-trial-days-12-and-13/

 

[liesbeth]

Where is the top sheet to the master bedrooms bed?

Also, does anyone have any pictures from Album 9?

I haven't seen any Album 9 photographs yet.

The duvet cover usually serves as a top sheet.

Hope this helps.

 

[Karmady]

(snipped for relevance)



Yes there is. We know Oscar has a sensitive stomach. Perhaps he pulled her shirt up over her head and twisted it so he didn't have to see her face/hair as he dragged her out and made phone calls, went online, etc. This would also explain the injury to one nipple, which was said to be an abrasion, caused by friction. When he heard people arriving, he hastily pulled her shirt back down, back to front, and poised at the top of the stairs, ready for the performance of his life.

Putting aside my feeling that that's also an absurd scenario (no offense, just my opinion), the post of mine you quoted assumed that the shirt was actually on backward. I've since learned that that's just speculation based on a poster's perception of the photos.

 

[liesbeth]

But didn't Roux retract the double tap by saying he, Roux, made a mistake and that it was in fact shots fired in quick succession? I understand they're calling a ballistics expert and so he'll probably have to come up with another story.

No wonder our heads are spinning because nothing is straight forward from the DT.

Yes, Roux did indeed retract the double taps. But only after Dixon's cross examination by Nel, long after Mangena.

There is a common law rule of fairness called Brown vs Dunn. This rule ensures that a witness is not ambushed. According to this rule a witness must be given the opportunity to explain if the opposing party intends to later discredit or contradict their testimony.

According to this rule, if Roux planned to contradict Mangena's testimony that bullet hole B was the bullet that missed, he should have put it to Mangena in order to give Mangena the opportunity to comment.

Roux never did that. He never put it to Mangena that B did not miss. And this means the fact that B missed was accepted by the defense.

In my earlier post I referred to the fact that Roux had put the double taps to Mangena, but not the fact that B was not the bullet that missed. (To "put it" means Roux was officially stating that the defense will argue there were double taps and he gave Mangena the opportunity to comment. Mangena commented and said it was impossible.)

 

[anagrammy]

Putting aside my feeling that that's also an absurd scenario (no offense, just my opinion), the post of mine you quoted assumed that the shirt was actually on backward. I've since learned that that's just speculation based on a poster's perception of the photos.

Thank you for straightening me out on the shirt. I thought that the backwards shirt had been established as fact since I read so many posts about it. Incidentally, it is not absurd for a murderer to cover his victim's face. Think of all the victims who are found with plastic bags covering their heads, even when the means of death was not suffocation.

 

[Carmelita]

But didn't Roux retract the double tap by saying he, Roux, made a mistake and that it was in fact shots fired in quick succession? I understand they're calling a ballistics expert and so he'll probably have to come up with another story.

No wonder our heads are spinning because nothing is straight forward from the DT.

Oscar's gun had what is called a hard first pull trigger and then soft pull, which means there is a lot of tension on the trigger for the first shot and then after that you need less force to pull the trigger making rapid fire easier.

 

[Viper]

Thank you for straightening me out on the shirt. I thought that the backwards shirt had been established as fact since I read so many posts about it. Incidentally, it is not absurd for a murderer to cover his victim's face. Think of all the victims who are found with plastic bags covering their heads, even when the means of death was not suffocation.

OP did not have to cover Reeva's face. Her face was behind a door when he killed her. That does put him in the appropriate catagory though. The one where killers kill victims that are trapped in a box.

 

[Carmelita]

Where is the top sheet to the master bedrooms bed?

Also, does anyone have any pictures from Album 9?

You know, I have wondered this also.There is no top sheet which seems odd for a warm climate. The duvet almost looks empty which I find peculiar.

 

[Carmelita]

I haven't seen any Album 9 photographs yet.

The duvet cover usually serves as a top sheet.

Hope this helps.

Maybe duvet means something else in Africa. Here in the US a duvet is like a giant pillowcase with closures on the top, you can slip your normal quilt/blanket in there in order to match the decor of different seasons, it is also thin so easier to wash than a quilt or blanket but it never replaces a top sheet. I think no top sheet is odd but I guess some people don't use them.

 

[screecher]

... he let his paranoia get the best of him....

RS, I and U BM

I can't believe for a nano second OP is/was paranoid. Someone with paranoia does not leave his windows open, doesn't have ladders laying next to his house nor does he leave a window not replaced.

Sooo...the basic premise of OP living with paranoia is false.

Dull, yes, I agree.

IMO.

 

[homegirl]

Great work, homegirl. Thank you so much. I wish I could press the thank you button 100 times.

Just a quick note. I think the bullet ricocheted twice. Once against the one wall as shown in your image, then across the corner of the two walls to another mark on the other wall, and then down to her back.

Edit: Found a link and images of it at lisa's blog:
https://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/19/oscar-pistorius-trial-days-12-and-13/

Thank you Liesbeth.Those are good images. I had a hard time depicting just where the two damages are on the wall. If I understand it correctly, there was one bullet hole mark on the wall, put in evidence as E and another mark from the ricochet in evidence as F. I probably should have made a distinction between the ricochet and the fragment paths. I'm not sure if Mangena postulated that more than one fragment hit her in the back, but I think that two were found under the magazine rack.

In the first photo that I posted of my recreation, I had to guess at everything about the bullet, ricochet, and fragment paths, and at Reeva's position.

In the second one I had the bullet path (laser), but I had to guess at the ricochet path, fragment path and Reevs's position. Reevas position etc. There are just too many variables to be accurate. Whatever the path the fragments took, I think it is quite possible that they did hit her as Mangena testified

I am glad that you liked my graphics. Before I did them, I had the idea that the shot that missed was kind of a wild shot. Now it sure seems to me that all 4 shots were aimed, with deadly intent. It lends weight, in my mind, to the theory that he could see her through a splintered space in the door.