Trial Discussion Thread #27 - 14.04.16, Day 24

[G.bng]

Right. I'd missed 'all' in your post and will take your word for it. It still appears sloppy, to me anyway, for a news station and the State to procure at least some but for the defence expert not to.

JMO

I'm sure Dixon of Dockgreen did say the defence got them and used them.

 

[minor4th]

Yes, and probably has been this way for years. He may be exaggerating emotions to affect the judge, but it might just be the way he is. One of Reeva's msgs to him mentioned that he rarely seemed happy to her.

I assume he has always been this way. No particular reason, except those kinds of personality traits are usually pervasive and have been adapted during adolescence or earlier.

 

[DebinGA]

I assume he has always been this way. No particular reason, except those kinds of personality traits are usually pervasive and have been adapted during adolescence or earlier.

I think it's more nurture than nature, i.e. he's rarely had to suffer the consequences of his actions, especially since he became famous in SA. He's gotten away with a lot, but hopefully m'lady will draw the line at murder.

 

[soozieqtips]

I think it burns a lot of people out
It kind of slipped out during cross exam with Nel and he put it on the record
Would take me forever to find a link and embarrassed to admit I don't know how to post links just use them
If I come across it whilst re reading I will try and learn a new skill and find out how to post it

If I want to post a link, I just copy the address of the web page, then paste it directly in my post. That's the easiest way for me :smile:

 

[TipDog]

So then he's acting. The tears, need of the green bucket, the thumbs/other fingers in the ears, covering his eyes, etc are all an act. I've always thought that but was surprised that some that are adamant that OP killed Reeva by accident believe that too.

I don't think that because OP has a physical handicap that he is that way either. I believe he is that way because it has worked for him in the past to get out of a punishment for what he has done wrong.

MOO

I'm not a psychologist, but IMHO, I do not think all of it is acting. I think there is basic fear in OP and a realization of what he's done that is affecting him emotionally. Where I think he's embellishing his emotions and trying to use them to his advantage is when it comes to Reeva. E.g. the vomiting was manifesting from his nerves, but he combined it with remorse to an exaggerated degree. He did the same thing with his constant breakdowns on the stand and claiming he's tired, etc. Nel and Masipa called him on it, very well, too, but I think both of them could have been harsher to illustrate that the court is aware of his antics.

My heart breaks for June Steenkamp. There she sat looking at the pathetic man who took her little baby's life away in a matter of seconds, crying hysterically and talking about how he's fighting for his life. I don't care whether you believe it was accidental or intentional - but look at that low class, sickeningly selfish behavior.

Reeva cried too and was in fear of her life as well. Only, she doesn't get to now fight to keep it as it once was. So shame on Pisotorius...and I'll stop there before I start using language that I'm sure is not acceptable on this forum.

 

[BritsKate]

JMO, he is surely histrionic but you cannot tag that on all people with disabilities. Histrionic can be a personality disorder and sounds offensive when ascribed to persons with disabilities.

I'd say.

Typed by the wife of a disabled husband.

 

[supernovaNic]

Did OP ever testify as to why he told security Baba everything was okay? Thanks.

 

[TipDog]

I didn't say it was related to his disabilities - that was another poster. I have no idea what the pathology behind it is.

That may have been me - and if so, my apologies. I most definitely do not think histrionics apply to the disabled universally. I do believe, however, that because of his disabilities, OP may be more sensitive, perhaps, and this could be what motivates the histrionics from him to the degree we've seen it (in addition to my other thoughts about it). But that's not an excuse for his behavior nor a blanketed opinion for an entire group of individuals, just my observation.

 

[TrueDetective]

I follow your logic and you make a valid point with respect to him being highly sensitive (which I think contributes to his anger management issues).

However, and correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't OP say he screamed those blood curdling screams because he realized that it might be Reeva behind that door? If so, then his being shocked (or embarrassed) won't fit in his version.

And as has been pointed out on here many times, why did he just make an assumption that Reeva hadn't excited off the balcony? (In fact, had there been an intruder and OP had been so foolish and reckless to go rushing on his stumps, vulnerable, into a possible line of fire, it is not inconceivable that Reeva might have dodged out that bedroom door and locked it behind her for her own protection followed by calling the police and so forth. Reeva, unlike OP, was incredibly bright.)

Hyper sensitive, insecure and also quite intelligent in my opinion. Not brain surgeon or philosopher clever - clearly, but still intelligent. Anybody who can be manipulative, persuasive and charming is to a certain degree intelligent.

 

[Viper]

Even more staggering during her testimony was when she was looking at a photo of her house - the curtains by the window overlooking OP's house, and she categorically stated that she wasn't there when the photo was taken. They zoomed in on the photo and saw HER hand holding the curtain. Astonishing and wonderful theater.

BIB. Not at all. I recall watching a science based show once that was having some fun with the old adage, "I know it like the back of my hand." They took enlarged photographs of each of six people's hand, just their hand, and mounted the images on a display, and then one by one they had each person try to identify their hand from the six choices. Of the six only one identified is hand correctly! And even he was a little wabbly on his selection. But think as you may.

 

[Julian]

Gosh! Just spent at least one and a half hours reading today's posts! It seems Dixon was, perhaps, not as favourable to Oscar Pistorius as he might have been, I gather...

In any case, I do thank G.bng for the reference to De Vos's article. I'll read that in a moment...

Alright. I have now read the article.... Again, Prof. De Vos's opinions are clear and do indeed shed considerable light on the case.

Now: from a legal perspective, Pistorius's actions as a witness have been... well, problematic. He has seemed to contradict himself, and to do so not once, but continuously. As a witness, he has, quite consistently, attempted to try and establish two very different trains of thought.

The first is that he acted out of self defense. Or rather, out of putative self defense. That is: he felt he was under an imminent threat and that he had to defend himself. This requires intent, namely: the intent to defend oneself. Such a defense is valid, but it is up to the accused to establish it. It is he who must attempt to establish the circumstances in which he was justified in believing there to be such a danger that the action taken was pardonable.

If this defense is successful, it negates the "unlawful" element of murder, but obviously not the intent. In other words, the action becomes lawful (and intentional), and, hence not subject to any criminal legal repercussion.

The second is that he acted "accidentally". If one acts "accidentally", one acts without intent. In other words, in that case, Pistorius would have shot without having intended to hit anyone. This is a totally different scenario to putative self defense because, in the case of an accidental shooting, there would be, by definition, no intent involved, including no intent to defend oneself.

Now, getting back to everyone's views on this: it seems that a few of you believe that Pistorius has been somehow "rehabilitated" by Roux in redirect. That is: where it seemed that during his testimony Pistorius was veering off in the direction of an "accidental" shooting, Roux has, in redirect, steered him back onto the track of putative self defense.

However, I do not believe that to be the case. The thing is, Pistorius has himself, not once but various times during his testimony, stated that "he did not mean to shoot anybody" and that he'd shot "before he knew it". And I do not see any legal experts - including, for example, prof. De Vos - saying this either. I think Pistorius is still in the mess he created for himself during his testimony. As a result, I think that effectively he has locked himself into the murder charge.

(Just to be clear: in the above, I am talking about murder, not pre-meditated murder. I am therefore not interested in what rows there might have been, or who ate what or when, or what cards were given or not. All that is interesting, but only for the element of meditation.)

 

[Carmelita]

So then he's acting. The tears, need of the green bucket, the thumbs/other fingers in the ears, covering his eyes, etc are all an act. I've always thought that but was surprised that some that are adamant that OP killed Reeva by accident believe that too.

I don't think that because OP has a physical handicap that he is that way either. I believe he is that way because it has worked for him in the past to get out of a punishment for what he has done wrong.

MOO

See I don’t believe that he is acting, in that he is trying to perpetuate a fraud on the court. I believe that his histrionics are real. I think that is a genuine reaction to his having killed Reeva on purpose or inadvertently thinking that she was an intruder. I also think that his dramatics are for himself and having to admit to the world that he killed Reeva. He is certainly no poster boy for “self-responsibility” and I don’t think he knows how to deal with being forced admit he did something wrong.

He has been on a pedestal, maybe all his life, he is like a child actor that believes that every day is their birthday and they deserve special treatment.

That said, being a boy man, does not make him guilty of premeditated murder, nor in my opinion does the evidence so far.

 

[aoibhinn]

That may have been me - and if so, my apologies. I most definitely do not think histrionics apply to the disabled universally. I do believe, however, that because of his disabilities, OP may be more sensitive, perhaps, and this could be what motivates the histrionics from him to the degree we've seen it (in addition to my other thoughts about it). But that's not an excuse for his behavior nor a blanketed opinion for an entire group of individuals, just my observation.

It wasn't you, TipDog. I remember who said it....

 

[james83]

Maybe i'm late to this particular part but is it really possible as some are suggesting that the bat hit the door before the gunshot's?.
If so is that the answer to the importance of Colonel Vermeulen's claim that Oscar was on his stump's when using the bat?.
I.e he hit the door with the bat on his stumps which was the first sounds the Stipps heard, eventually fired the shots and then Put on his prosthesis and pried the door open in the crack that he had created with the bat earlier?.
It would certainly explain why he would deny hitting the door with the bat on his stumps which was something that appeared he had no reason to lie about.

 

[TipDog]

Hyper sensitive, insecure and also quite intelligent in my opinion. Not brain surgeon or philosopher clever - clearly, but still intelligent. Anybody who can be manipulative, persuasive and charming is to a certain degree intelligent.

I don't know, True. I'll concede he's smart, but didn't his DT come up with his story? Using the "I thought it was an intruder" excuse wouldn't be hard for anyone of any intelligence to come up with in a instant, especially since now we know how he blames others for his actions (darn that imaginary intruder!)

As for being manipulative, I'm not sure I'm convinced of that either. And his persuasion and charm over others had an enormous amount to do with his celebrity and athletic talent.

But given the short period of time in which he and Reeva dated and how she put into written words her misgivings about him and the relationship, I sense he wasn't actually all that charming at all except in the public arena where he had an image to uphold.

No offense to athletes, but they have a far lesser burden than, say, actors or politicians, to create a well-rounded public persona. OP just had to smile, really, while the pappa pointed and clicked his image into the minds of his adoring fans. And when interviewed, he didn't have to do much but speak about his passions and his sport, which he knew well.

I'm not convinced had OP not been OP, RS would have had any interest in him at all. The only reason she even met him is b/c she was set up to be his date at an event (iirc). And RS being a very bright bulb, was figuring out that he was likely not the man for her, Valentine's Day card aside (which I'll just leave that alone so as not to get that discussion going again). The PT is insisting that she was trying to leave that morning (which some of the evidence supports) and had she, I sense that would have been it for that relationship. Whether that was what set OP off or not, we'll never know, but I do think it's part of the reality of what happened that night.

 

[minor4th]

I've attempted to put together a timeline of sorts, it might be helpful. I tried not to cram in too much info so the times would stand out. I've mostly used juror13 as a source (if this is not ok, please let me know), along with other reports from the individual court dates.

Question : Who is Mr Nhlengethwa? I've read his name in the reports but that's it....

--------------------------------​

Phone records - Calls to security on 14th Feb

Silverwood Security land line:

3:15:51am - Dr. Stipp (army training - assult rifle & pistol). Reported gunshots.
3:16:16am - Mr Nhlengethwa. No answer.
3:16:36am - Mr Nhlengethwa. Reported gunshots.

Silverwood Security cell phone:

3:21:33am - Op to Baba. OP cries.
3:22:05am - Baba to OP. OP says “everything is fine”.

Security other:

3:16am - Mr. Johnson (gun owner). Heard gunshots - backed up by security phone records.

Silverwood Security:

3:19:50am - OP to Stander

Gunshots/bangs & screams reported to security on 14th Feb

1:56am - Mrs. van der Merwe (very loud woman's voice over an hour)

3:00am (approx) - Mrs. van der Merwe (gunshots/bangs)
3:00am (shortly after)- Security guard on bike. (gunshots)
3:00am (approx) - Mrs. Burger (gunshots)
3:00am (approx) - Mr. Johnson (gunshots)
3:04am - Dr. Stipp. (gunshots)
3:04am - Mrs. Stipp (gunshots)
3:16am (before) - Mr Nhlengethwa (gunshots)

-------------------------------------------​

Dr. Stipp - hears fearful female screaming, sees lights in OP's bathroom.
Mr. Johnson - male & female yelling for help, female and male screams intermingled.
Mrs. Burger - male & female yelling for help, woman screaming with scream escalating.
Mrs. van der Merwe - loud woman's voice, screams.

-------------------------------------------​

3:12am OP reports firing his gun


3:17am (approx) - Mr. Johnson (gunshots)
3:17am - Dr. Stipp (gunshots)

-------------------------------------------​

I can make changes if needs be....

This is great. Burger and Johnson, however, heard the shots at about 3:16 - 3:17. They were woken up by screams - some time after 3:00 and didn't hear the shots until after they had tried to call different security numbers a couple of times.

 

[minor4th]

That may have been me - and if so, my apologies. I most definitely do not think histrionics apply to the disabled universally. I do believe, however, that because of his disabilities, OP may be more sensitive, perhaps, and this could be what motivates the histrionics from him to the degree we've seen it (in addition to my other thoughts about it). But that's not an excuse for his behavior nor a blanketed opinion for an entire group of individuals, just my observation.

No worries, it wasn't you though.

 

[atthelake]

Hey, we need something to fill up the next 2 weeks!!

I'm driving to Florida for a weeks vacation , then on to New Orleans Louisiana for the jazz festival the following week.

So nice that the trial was put on hold :giggle:

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

 

[steveml]

A reasonable man living with another person will not wake up at night, hear a noise in the toilet and shoot through the toilet door without even asking: "That you, love?"

I had to read that twice, but yes, absolutely agree. :smile:

 

[aoibhinn]

This is great. Burger and Johnson, however, heard the shots at about 3:16 - 3:17. They were woken up by screams - some time after 3:00 and didn't hear the shots until after they had tried to call different security numbers a couple of times.

Cheers, minor. I'm keeping a note of any changes to go back and check tomorrow and then maybe I'll repost an updated one for perusal over the break?

If anyone has a link to good quality daily transcriptions, I'd appreciate a link. The Sky one is dreadful.