Trial Discussion Thread #28 - 14.04.17, Day 25

[Cape Town Crim.]

Welcome! That you, Jeanie?

Thank you for the welcome. No, :blushing: not Jeanie, although I'm also a 'J'.

 

[aa9511]

D: In the pssg, I could see the outline of the bookrack...if you are standing at curtain end of the bedroom, you can see the passage...Mr V went and laid down on the bed. I could not see him. It was quite dark Milady.

I just wonder, as they do these reconstructions, if they're ever like, "oh s*** how are we gonna spin this around?"

Because surely Mr D and Mr V both know Oscar is lying, and that would be even more evident once they did their reconstructions.

 

[zwiebel]

think that is another bathroom.

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2013-02-20/court-shown-floor-plan-of-oscar-pistorius-house/

It must be. At your link, I think the two oval shapes in the bathroom are sinks, and then the toilet room itself shows no sink.

I can see another bathroom down in the right hand corner, but the sink doesn't look in the same position as that photo I showed either....maybe he had three bathrooms?

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2013-02-20/court-shown-floor-plan-of-oscar-pistorius-house/

 

[James50]

BBM - and yet millions of women in SA do not get murdered in the toilet when they are taking a pee. And I'm sure their husbands/partners occasionally hear those noises in the toilet without needing to rush and get a gun to kill them.

I can tell you haven't ever been in this situation.

 

[soozieqtips]

Thank you for the welcome.

Yes, I have been incredibly fortunate enough to witness 'the 'brutal then bored' Gerrie Nel 'live' in court on more than one occasion. He is a very astute cross examiner and whilst many will question his strategy/methods etc, his closing argument is always a thing of beauty. That moment when all he has done, all he has alluded to, all he has inferred, deducted, insinuated is patched together for the 1st time like a completed patchwork quilt.

He doesn't go for the 'complicated theories' etc. He likes to work in 'lists' and will target 5/6/7/ things that he will focus on. The simplicity is actually the 'thing of beauty'.

I've always been a huge admirer. The cross examiner supreme (or the cross examiner from Dante's version of hell if you're the accused)

How do you think Roux did in all this? Are you familiar with his tactics at all? And have you any thoughts on what the verdict might be, based on the evidence so far? It's been stated by some here, that Nel hasn't proved anything 'beyond a reasonable doubt' and OP could perhaps walk free if he can prove 'putative self defence'. Any ideas on that?

As for the 'brutal then bored' description, that sounds like my cat. He'll spend half an hour terrorising a mouse, tossing it up in the air and stalking it round the garden for an hour, before abruptly giving up and chasing a leaf instead!

 

[jay-jay]

Ok. Someone had to testify to the angle of shots, even if it was Roger Dixon.

This is a factor which points to OP's innocence.

He is standing off to the side, near the opening to the bathroom, shooting sideways into the water closet. Shows fear and a belief that danger is inside.

If he knew Reeva was there he would have just stood in front and shot.

.. not if he wanted it to look like an intruder, he wouldn't ..

 

[aa9511]

'To see what we could see' has to be our catchphrase for today.

YES!! Sounds good!

We see that we see Oscar is a guilty you know what.

 

[Val1]

An interesting connection from a previous case involving Roger Dixon, Dup de Bruyn (Steenkamp family lawyer) and autopsy pathologist Gert Saayman :-

Link

Just catching up again but this little bit of background on the OP clan was linked to that page, in light of the current trial I thought it rather interesting due to some of us speculating that anger and mistrust played a part.

http://www.iol.co.za/news/special-features/oscar-pistorious/doors-trouble-pistorius-clan-since-1844-1.1677202

According to the website of the Maccauvlei Golf Club, located across the river from present-day Vereeniging, Carel Pistorius’s fierce misogyny and obdurate nature resulted in his being dubbed “Kwaai Angus” (Angry Angus) by his neighbours.

“This formidable character had a particular mistrust of women and cheques. His mistrust of women evinced by the fact that into his heavy wooden front door were carved the words 'Women Deceiveth Ever'.”

 

[TrueDetective]

A very good evening to all of you.
I have been reading for a few days after stumbling on this by 'accident' (Yes, I'm fluent in 'Osky' - my name for OP) whilst researching a totally unrelated criminal matter.
I find your opinions to be top draw and the debates far more mature than anywhere else I have seen - yet with the necessary 'entertaining and subtle put downs when required :fence:

I have enjoyed reading all posts, including those representing the 'Osky is innocent fringe'. Every killer needs (and deserves) a supporters bench. It's standard.

Living in South Africa I can confirm that 90% plus are firm in their belief that Osky is guilty of not only murdering, but of EXECUTING Reeva Steenkamp.

Initially there was quite a bit of support for Osky, this due to people's own fears and experience with crime. Once it became clear there was very little 'intruder' and a helluva lot of 'deluder'; the average man in the street reckoned Osky was :jail: You just have to go and read any SA news website or blog. In their hundreds they, the people of SA will tell you what they think of Osky. (Yes, there are loons who worship at the altar of Osky but they're quite simply :moo:

Sadly in our nation (SA) and many others, people tend to ignore the warning signs and the 'darkness' that exhibits amongst 'certain' national heroes until something like this happens.

Personally, I have always found Osky to be the poster child of Narcissists. I have admired an athletic achievement or 2, the MAN - never. (Even some of his athletic achievements have been at the expense of others at times) Osky did not qualify for the able bodied Olympics in terms of SA rankings. The chap who was faster than him had to stay home, while the 'FACE' of SA athletics traveled to London to grace the world with his showboating.

Bah humbug for him.

A quick note for those who were a little let down by Gerrie letting Osky and Dixon off the hook 'quietly' and without too much 'fuss' in the end. This is the way the man rolls. He kicks witnesses around a little, has some fun, then he becomes bored playing and wants the next one. He will show the court he is 'bored' and with 'said' witnesses lies/incompetence/integrity etc and then he discards them - like old handkerchiefs he no longer wants because they are no longer useful and he's gained enough use out of them. His win rate is exceptionally high for a prosecutor, so whilst not everyone will enjoy his manner or methods - whatever he does, WORKS and it works well.

Thank you for allowing me to post here and contribute. There are some really good theories here - many of you sit in the same boat as I do in terms of what went down that night.

:seeya:

Had to return from my brief exile to say welcome and what a terrific first post.

I think you were referring to some of my posts regarding Nel and I am reassured somewhat, though I do think he should not get bored in such a major trial. I want to see no stone unturned but there have been some big rocks left untouched! I will keep the faith!

I hope you stick around and furnish us with more insight as the trial continues.
Thanks cape...

 

[molly333]

Shooting at somebody behind a locked toilet door is not innocence of anything.

Innocence of first degree pre-meditated murder.

 

[zwiebel]

I just wonder, as they do these reconstructions, if they're ever like, "oh s*** how are we gonna spin this around?"

Because surely Mr D and Mr V both know Oscar is lying, and that would be even more evident once they did their reconstructions.

I don't know if they think he's lying, but the balcony light outside the bedroom doors was on the night of the killing, but it wasn't switched on for the reconstruction. I really think it should have been. Just a little sliver of artificial light when it's very dark can make a huge difference in what you can see, in my opinion.

 

[katydid23]

Experts, right.

It's been pointed out more than once that Vermeulen was only referring to one specific crack which he said was preceded by a gunshot. He didn't say that all the bat marks came after the gunshots. He said it wasn't possible to draw that conclusion.

No one is denying that the bat was used after the shots to help break the door, but that does not preclude it being used to strike the door before the shots too.

:goodpost: :thankyou:

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

LOL!

I still have more respect for Dixon than for most other expert witnesses b/c he is seemingly not trying too hard to tailor all his facts in favor or against the defendant.

Poor guy, he is just trying to do what he can do.

JMO.

Not sure if you guys have covered this already? But Dr Reggie Perumal (honestly one of SA's finest independent forensic pathologists and the original <modsnip> dream team pathologist) won't be called by the 'D'.

This is quite simply because the man is as ethical as they come, the only tailoring he knows comes courtesy of an ACTUAL tailor.
This has made people here in SA really sit up and comment that just maybe, money can't but you EVERYTHING. :back: Ride Dr Peruval ride.

 

[molly333]

.. not if he wanted it to look like an intruder, he wouldn't ..

If he's in a blind rage, how could he think of such things?

And, even if he's not, the same, who would think of this?

 

[aa9511]

ANN7Reporter &#8207;@ANN7Reporter 3 mins
We've intercepted a note from geologist expert Roger Dixon to Adv Roux, asking: "When are they going to ask me about sand?" #ExpertShmexpert

:floorlaugh:

 

[patCee]

The state have made logical conclusions about the sequence of bat and shots to account for the injuries RS received. Vermuelan said there were only 2 bat marks on the door. One, he believes was after the shots as the crack made was stopped by the bullet hole. There were 4 shots through the door. This is very neat but doesn't tell us much about the circumstances leading to RS' death.

The Stipps heard 6 bangs. 3 then screaming, then a further 3. The sounds heard by others could have been anywhere within those 6.

There was also a 5th cartridge found in the toilet bowl that the ballistics, nor anyone, could account for, so it's been ignored.

I believe there was an argument that became very nasty and RS had to run from OP. I think not being able to 'get at her' in the toilet inflamed him into getting his gun. I also think he knew he was shooting at her and aimed at her.

I do think it's possible that the bat and shots sequence is different to that put forward. There's a piece of the puzzle missing somewhere, maybe it has to do with the 5th cartridge, and the damaged bedroom door.

 

[molly333]

Not sure if you guys have covered this already? But Dr Reggie Perumal (honestly one of SA's finest independent forensic pathologists and the original <modsnip> dream team pathologist) won't be called by the 'D'.

This is quite simply because the man is as ethical as they come, the only tailoring he knows comes courtesy of an ACTUAL tailor.
This has made people here in SA really sit up and comment that just maybe, money can't but you EVERYTHING. :back: Ride Dr Peruval ride.

Maybe he's not being called because there is nothing to dispute?

 

[Emz73]

I just wonder, as they do these reconstructions, if they're ever like, "oh s*** how are we gonna spin this around?"

Because surely Mr D and Mr V both know Oscar is lying, and that would be even more evident once they did their reconstructions.

What would happen if you took a client on, but whilst testing their version, every time the results showed they were lying and the evidence was following the states version? They would advise the client to plead guilty but what if they insisted they were telling the truth?
How would that work?

 

[TorisMom003]

Pic of the undamaged/repaired bathroom. Unfortunately, the sink obscured the view of any mag rack.

That sink wasn't visible in any forensic photos, was it?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/oscar-pistorius-first-pictures-bathroom-1719498

Not at the end of the thread yet so this may have been mentioned but that is NOT a pic of the correct bathroom/toilet room.

 

[aa9511]

Not sure if you guys have covered this already? But Dr Reggie Perumal (honestly one of SA's finest independent forensic pathologists and the original <modsnip> dream team pathologist) won't be called by the 'D'.

This is quite simply because the man is as ethical as they come, the only tailoring he knows comes courtesy of an ACTUAL tailor.
This has made people here in SA really sit up and comment that just maybe, money can't but you EVERYTHING. :back: Ride Dr Peruval ride.

That is good to hear.

I guess I have been biased by Alyce LaViolette in the Jodi Arias trial. I think she really gave expert witnesses a bad name.

Good to hear some people want to keep their integrity.