Trial Discussion Thread #29

[K.T]

I want to talk more about Pistorius behavior, what he said about his actions on the night as well as his manner on the stand (thanks for the link to the editor who reports they heard he took 'acting' classes). Especially in regard to narcissism, fame and insecurity. I think it's fascinating but can only write occasionally though I try to keep up ☺:

We couldn’t see his reactions on television and this profiler was in court and states there was a divide between his emotional and physical reactions. Just to be clear, if you actually feeling the emotions and are crying your body’s involuntary physical reactions should match up with the facial or verbal actions, it's acting more than reacting.

Criminologist Laurie Pieters on the Oscar Channel
http://oscartrial.dstv.com/video/512794/category/0

It quite clear that he’s using emotions as a decoy: You know every time things get rough for Mr. Pistorius he cries or he vomits or he covers his head.

On the stand it was very very interesting when things because difficult he spoke in a whining, irritated crying voice. And what I didn’t see, in the beginning it was there but at the end what I didn’t see was the accompanying physiological reactions.

There was no nose running which you would expect when someone is crying. There were no tears there was no excess swallowing. All the associated physiological reactions were not apparent to me.

Dr Mitch Abrams Sports Pyschology on ‘Athletes and Violence’
DR. MITCH ABRAMS - Pistorius Sport Psychology interview - YouTube

It’s the celebrity status that makes it so difficult. The psychological toll and the skills that are necessary that are needed to manage that are tremendous.

There are some people that can really go to hell and a hand basket so to say. There have been some quotes about Pistorius and his focus has always been on what he can do - not what he can not do. He’s not to going to be limited by his disabilities...but one could argue that that sort of approach if the one that will let them believe that they can do anything. There’s no laws or rules that limit what they can and cannot do.

If you’re a competitive athlete and you beat people, you’re going to start to believe that you’re better than everyone else. I believe very strongly that narcissism is a natural consequence of chronic winning.

Why wouldn’t you think you could react in whatever way you want when people think you are a god?

One has to wonder if that confidence, that narcissism that we see in an elite athlete, and in Pistorius in particular, if it’s real or it’s compensatory?

...That inside their very fragile. Now if that’s the case, if they are fragile-ego type men then there going to be susceptible to slights that they think might be a challenge to their manhood.

 

[nastasya]

No, it's not the definition of putative self defense.

The entire self-defense notion is one of those "The king has no clothes" discussions.

OP by his own description walked to his bed, got his gun, walked past an exit from the bedroom, walked down two passages, and put himself in a room a few feet in front of who he claims was a dangerous intruder.

Stop right there.

In that situation, with two human beings in the same room, one in the toilet stall, and the other in front of the door holding a gun, who is the aggressor, and who is in need of defense?

Ok, continue.

The person with the gun raises the gun and fires at the person behind the door. The person behind the door is hit.

Stop again!

Now we have two people again, one has been hit with a black talon bullet and is incapacitated, the other is still holding a 9 mm Parabellum.

Which person is the aggressor? Which is the person who requires defending themselves for their life?

Ok, continue...

The person with the gun pauses, then fires a second and third shot at the person who has already been wounded. One of these shots misses. The other hits the other person and nearly amputates their arm.

Stop!

Now we have two people. One is holding a gun. The other has been severely incapacitated, with life-threatening injuries to the hip and arm.

Who is the aggressor? Who needs to defend themselves?

Who DID try to defend themselves?

The person who has already been hit twice puts her hand above her head, instinctively trying to protect herself.

The person with the gun fires a fourth shot. This shot rips through the already injured person's brain, killing her almost instantly.

Which person in this saga was the aggressor? The one who went to retrieve a gun, approached the other person and fired bang...... bang..... bang..... bang.....

Who was the person who needed to defend themselves?

Hint: It wasn't the person who was holding the gun.

To even be discussion this as a self-defense case is absurd. There was no defense, only aggression.

If OP believed his next door neighbor was going to come over and kill him, that does not mean he can grab his gun and run next door and start shooting.

 

[Apollo]

Why don't you just make up the size to fit your version of what you want people to think happen.

Then if they question you, just say you don't know why you made it up, or you don't remember, or that you didn't have time to think.

Because someone might think my real name is Oscar.

 

[liesbeth]

Because someone might think my real name is Oscar.

lol, Apollo. I'm not sure about the window. I do know that Nel said the toilet is 1.4 x 1.4 m.

The toilet window is the lone window to the left in the red rectangle. The open bathroom window is the one furthest to the left of the other three windows. (Edit: I mean the left hand window of the three side-by-side windows.)

So my guess would be about 40-50 cm wide.

 

[TipDog]

Hmm any guesses as to what this display of body language says?

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2014-04-16-pistorius-trial-week-6-day-3/

Mind you, I think OP is guilty of premeditated murder, but that photo tells me nothing. To me, he looks:

1. tired
2. stressed (clenched jaw)
3. as if he just puked or cried

But that photo does not make me think him guilty or innocent.

I do, however, believe body language does matter - and I mean animated body language, not a still photo. Judge Masipa watched him very closely, with intense focus, all through CE.

 

[Val1]

Maybe. But I don't think it impossible that he was actually puking for real. He is fighting for his life, after all. And he faces a very grim future. All of that is influencing his emotions, I'm sure.

Perhaps there's some truth to this article? For someone who's so concerned about sticking to a strict diet of chicken and veg, gorging on bacon, beans and eggs smothered in Tabasco surely would cause some discomfort...

http://banananewsline.com/2014/03/12/pistorius-vomit-caused-by-buffet/

“Oscar just kept eating and eating.”

 

[Val1]

Mind you, I think OP is guilty of premeditated murder, but that photo tells me nothing. To me, he looks:

1. tired
2. stressed (clenched jaw)
3. as if he just puked or cried

But that photo does not make me think him guilty or innocent.

I do, however, believe body language does matter - and I mean animated body language, not a still photo. Judge Masipa watched him very closely, with intense focus, all through CE.

Looking at the pic just reminds of the saying, "if looks could kill..." and not because of what he's being charged with, heck until this trial I hadn't heard of either of them and I used to sell Avon... and I have a disabled husband.:/

 

[liesbeth]

Perhaps there's some truth to this article? For someone who's so concerned about sticking to a strict diet of chicken and veg, gorging on bacon, beans and eggs smothered in Tabasco surely would cause some discomfort...

http://banananewsline.com/2014/03/12/pistorius-vomit-caused-by-buffet/

You think it's not just satirical?

 

[Val1]

lol, Apollo. I'm not sure about the window. I do know that Nel said the toilet is 1.4 x 1.4 m.

The toilet window is the lone window to the left of the red rectangle. The open bathroom window is the one furthest to the left of the other three windows.

My guess would be about 40-50 cm wide.

My toilet windows look about the same and they're 21"w x 33"h, but the opening is on the top and it only pushes out from the middle to a maximum of about 10", if that helps?

 

[Val1]

You think it's not just satirical?

Sure it could be, but I'd have said the same about this trial if I hadn't been watching it for myself.. then again, I am watching that on the internet too.:waitasec:

 

[Apollo]

lol, Apollo. I'm not sure about the window. I do know that Nel said the toilet is 1.4 x 1.4 m.

The toilet window is the lone window to the left in the red rectangle. The open bathroom window is the one furthest to the left of the other three windows. (Edit: I mean the left hand window of the three side-by-side windows.)

So my guess would be about 40-50 cm wide.

Thank you for taking the time to post that. Much appreciated. I have read elsewhere comments that the window was too small for anyone to crawl though. Granted, it's small but intruders come in all sizes and I'm not sure it would be impossible if someone was intent on gaining access.

 

[Apollo]

My toilet windows look about the same and they're 21"w x 33"h, but the opening is on the top and it only pushes out from the middle to a maximum of about 10", if that helps?

Hard to believe an intruder would look at that house with all the windows and decide to get the ladder, climb up to see if that particular tiny window was unlocked, then open it and while balancing on the ladder, wiggle through it.

 

[mister happy]

DR. MITCH ABRAMS - Pistorius Sport Psychology interview - YouTube

Dr. Abrams is right on. I couldn't help but think of not only Pistorius, but of Lance Armstrong!

 

[steveml]

I've often thought that if Reeva was alive in the toilet whilst OP was breaking down the door, she had an opportunity to try and attract outside attention.

Wooden magazine rack smashing the glass toilet window would be quite a logical action.

 

[Plumeria5]

I haven't followed this case that closely and am watching the Spotlight show on CNN right now. Something I didn't know was that OP said he locked the bedroom door as he does each night. Was the lock just one you turn from the inside or was there also a key like the bathroom door?

 

[minor4th]

Franaaz Khan, an attorney and a criminal law and commercial law lecturer at the University of KwaZulu-Natal says that South African law does not recognise a charge called “premeditated murder”, the fact that it was premeditated can be used in court as an argument in aggravation of sentence.

Intention can be formed at the instant of committing the crime and does not imply or necessitate any degree of forethought or planning on the part of the accused.

"Our courts have suggested that one would have to examine all the circumstances surrounding any particular murder, including not least the accused’s state of mind. This will allow one to arrive at a conclusion as to whether a particular murder is planned or premeditated,” said Khan.

“Planning and premeditation have long been recognised as aggravating factors in the case of murder, and thus section 51 of the Criminal Law Amendment Act was enacted in an effort to remedy increasing crime rates, increased public dissatisfaction with the criminal justice system and to decrease sentencing disparities,” she said.

Section 51 dictates that a life sentence applies to murder when the offender planned or premeditated the murder.

“Our law suggests that planned criminality is more reprehensible than unplanned, impulsive acts.

“However, there must be evidence that the murder was indeed premeditated or planned,” said Khan.

http://www.iol.co.za/dailynews/opinion/expert-clarifies-premeditated-murder-1.1573253

My apologies if this has been posted before.

Yes, that is what I think we've been saying (I thought). The charge is murder, the enhancement or aggravator is premeditation

 

[minor4th]

Hmm any guesses as to what this display of body language says?

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2014-04-16-pistorius-trial-week-6-day-3/

Wow. Look at that clenched jaw. Either he's angry/frustrated/stressed ...or he's about to yawn or throw up and he's trying to suppress it.

 

[Plumeria5]

Wow. Look at that clenched jaw. Either he's angry/frustrated/stressed ...or he's about to yawn or throw up and he's trying to suppress it.

and add in the squinting eyes, looks angry to me.

 

[minor4th]

and add in the squinting eyes, looks angry to me.

His eyes were squinty every time the camera panned to him in the last couple of days. I think he was medicated, maybe a little too much

 

[anagrammy]

No worries. We did have previous suggestions that OP tried to ensure Reeva was dead by blocking her airway, rather than attempting to clear it.

In this circumstance the point regarding Dr Stipp would be quite important.

Why did he do that?

It couldn't have been because she might finger him as the killer--that was obvious.

It had to be something she had threatened to expose/report... and he, in his illogical panic, wanted to be 100% sure she didn't say anything now that other people were present.

This also may be a big fat clue to what their argument was about -- Reeva keeping yet another Oscar mistake a secret. My gut feeling is that it was physical abuse because of the blood drops all over, the damage to the bedroom door (esp the pellet hole), the pants thrown out the window, and the tank she was wearing being back-to-front. I also believe it is suspicious that the last three shots are clustered, and follow the sound of her (screaming?) falling body.

Because Reeva's wounds were so extensive, previous damage may not have been able to be detected at the autopsy.

Comments?