Trial Discussion Thread #31

[steveml]

The theory put forward that he did scream those words out but they were knowingly directed at RS makes a lot of sense to me. His emotion when recalling it sounded genuine at that particular point.

In terms of what it suggests, I'm more interested in why he started crying when explaining the position of a duvet, or how he opened double doors with a cocked gun in his hand, or whether or not he recalled turning off the alarm.

Totally the opposite to me. If those words were so influential towards Reeva he would have used a different turn of phrase in court.

If he's so clever to have worked for months and months on his story, then he's certainly not going to willfully repeat those exact words again.

 

[minor4th]

As you know, I think he's guilty of premeditated murder I think something put him over the edge as he stood outside the bathroom door and he decided to shoot to kill...just the way he has practiced so often. Whether he thought it was an intruder or Reeva is not relevant to the crux of the case just OP's version imo.

It will be interesting if or when we read the judge's opinion to find out if her reasoning and conclusions are similar on several of the points you so clearly elucidated. Most interesting, I think, will be

1) If she finds Mrs. Stipp's testimony reliable
2) If she finds Oscar's testimony reliable
3) If she makes a determination regarding bat, screams, gunshots or not

As you stated earlier, the DT's case has only just started and with that and probable rebuttal, more will emerge for discussion AND perhaps to shift the pendulum yet again

(the latter works both ways)

Oh, I fully expect my pendulum to do a couple more swings before this is over.

 

[lithgow1]

Totally the opposite to me. If those words were so influential towards Reeva he would have used a different turn of phrase in court.

If he's so clever to have worked for months and months on his story, then he's certainly not going to willfully repeat those exact words again.

We'll just have to disagree then. That he shouted them at RS before he killed her sounds much more likely IMO than them being the words he screamed at the 'intruder' before he shot 'him' four times after hearing the terrifying sound of 'wood moving'. Maybe he didn't scream those words at that particular moment, but it was likely to be some time thereabouts.

I believe his story is a fiction with bits of truth embedded within it and this is one of those instances where the truth is intermingled with the lies.

 

[Mr Fossil]

Hmm, did RS wear contacts?

This article has a pic of Reeva wearing glasses so she may have worn contacts. CCTV pics of her driving don't show her wearing glasses.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/reeva-stee...e-oscar-pistorius-murder-trial-begins-1438283

 

[nastasya]

BBM

This is a very good point. It's been continually stressed that it would be improbable that 5 witnesses mistook a male voice for a female voice. It sounds a strong point, but in the grand scheme of things the determination of the gender of the screaming was made by residents from two properties, the furthest being almost 2 football pitches away in distance.

Throughout the case I haven't given the witnesses the same weight as if they were totally independent and from separate properties. That's just personal to me, and I guess each individual will have their own view on this. To me, it seems perfectly reasonable that a couple will discuss events that happen and reach some kind of a loose consensus based on certain aspects of the incident. It's human nature, and they wouldn't know at the time that they would be testifying as ear-witnesses to a murder.

It's also worth noting that from all the residents living within the Silverwoods Country Estate, the prosecution team only managed to locate one property whereby the residents would/could testify to having heard a woman screaming.

Similarly, from all the houses within the Silver Stream Estate, the prosecution team only managed to locate one property whereby the residents would/could testify to having heard a woman screaming.

The problem with trying to discredit the witnesses is that OP has tried to confirm they heard everything that happened that night.

The DT argument is merely that they misheard what they said they heard.

OP wants the judge to believe the witnesses heard him replicate the exact sounds of attacking and shooting a woman just minutes after he really did attack and shoot a woman, but wants the judge to believe the witnesses didn't hear the actual attack, but only heard, and misinterpreted, everything that happened after the attack.

In other words, OP is asking the judge to believe the witnesses described hearing exactly what actually happened from wrongly interpreting sounds they did actually hear that sounded like a woman being murdered, but were actually OP making the exact sounds after he shot Reeva.

That theory is too stupid to even consider possible.

 

[crasshopper]

...

If I watched this movie in the cinema and it captioned 'Based on a true story', I still wouldn't believe it.

Could not help but lmbo!

I almost feel badly for laughing so much tonight, it is a serious case, but some of you are toooo funny!

 

[wb180]

So ..I pretty much think the prosecution is going to argue that the cricket bat sounds/kicking were the first sounds, heard by the Stipps and maybe Merwe, some time around 3:00 -3:10 (depending on whose clock we're looking at).

I think they will have to argue exactly what some here have been speculating - the bat was used first to scare Reeva or threaten her, Reeva started screaming, Oscar started yelling and then he shot her at 3:17, through the door, to keep her quiet (or something like that). He then pulled the panels out (or pried them out with the bat, as Vermuelen suggested) and he did all of this while on his stumps.

I can't think what else they could argue if they are sticking with their theory that the gunshots at 3:17 killed Reeva.

To make this argument, they are going to have to tiptoe around their own expert testimony about the cricket bat hitting the door after the gunshots - IMO this is asking the judge to make a gigantic inferential leap and accept a speculative theory that is not supported by any evidence (other than Vermuelen speculating about possibilities).

They are also going to have to convince the judge, per this argument, that Oscar had to have been on his stumps throughout the whole incident - and they can only rely on Vermuelen's unscientific opinion that it would be too awkward to make those cricket bat marks from a standing position on OP's legs. The judge will also have to completely reject the evidence that the higher mark is a cricket bat mark, and also ignore the fact that Vermuelen was shown in photos matching the cricket bat to that mark, but testified that he never tested that mark because he couldn't relate it to the cricket bat.

I really can't think of another way they can tie the evidence together and come up with a premeditated murder theory.

The problem I see with this is that so much of the state's case depends on discrediting Oscar and persuading the judge that it's so improbable (as a whole) that it can't possibly be true that Oscar believed there was an intruder. But even if the judge rejects Oscar's version and agrees that it is not reasonably possibly true, then she has to determine whether the state has proved their case beyond a reasonable doubt - and IMO the state cannot lay out a case that proves murder to the exclusion of all other reasonably possibilities.

This case is really starting to aggravate me because it just looks like there are too many gaps that need to be filled and so many unanswered questions that really could have been answered by some of the experts.

I know your view is different from me but that's ok.

However, I don't understand why there needs to be an explanation on what the first bangs were if the states' evidence shows the bangs at 3.17 were gunshot (i.e. evidence from witnesses).

Also not sure why we are assuming the bangs must be either bats or gunshots.

If the bangs at 3.00 were really gunshots, I don't know how the other evidence can fit in. Also only some witnesses heard this these bangs at 3.

 

[Val1]

A key issue still for me is how the State are going to explain the first set of noises at 3am. If, as some people here have suggested, these were caused by the cricket bat as OP tried to frighten Reeva who was already locked in the toilet, this would mean she was trapped in there for 15 minutes before he finally shot her. This doesn't seem likely to me.

You're assuming the first set of sounds were right at 3, they could have been as long as up to 5-10 minutes later. Iirc Mrs. Stipp was the only one who stated any kind of specific time as to when she first looked at the clock as she woke up to a coughing fit and only as she was about to get up to get a drink was when they heard the first set of "noises". Having in the past been flu-ish with coughing bouts, not to mention at that hour of the morning, it could easily take up to ten minutes to gather the strength and motivation to get out of bed for a drink, imo.

When you look at all the witnesses time frames, they're all approximate, so you have to allow some leeway except for the second set that are verified by the calls to security right at and shortly after when the witnesses heard them which all fell between 3:14-3:17.

 

[wb180]

BBM

This is a very good point. It's been continually stressed that it would be improbable that 5 witnesses mistook a male voice for a female voice. It sounds a strong point, but in the grand scheme of things the determination of the gender of the screaming was made by residents from two properties, the furthest being almost 2 football pitches away in distance.

Throughout the case I haven't given the witnesses the same weight as if they were totally independent and from separate properties. That's just personal to me, and I guess each individual will have their own view on this. To me, it seems perfectly reasonable that a couple will discuss events that happen and reach some kind of a loose consensus based on certain aspects of the incident. It's human nature, and they wouldn't know at the time that they would be testifying as ear-witnesses to a murder.

It's also worth noting that from all the residents living within the Silverwoods Country Estate, the prosecution team only managed to locate one property whereby the residents would/could testify to having heard a woman screaming.

Similarly, from all the houses within the Silver Stream Estate, the prosecution team only managed to locate one property whereby the residents would/could testify to having heard a woman screaming.

I would interested to hear how many residents DT will put forward to reject these witnesses' assertions. Given there is none at the moment, these witnesses testimonies are reliable.

Dismissing these witnesses because of the number of people around that area is like if someone was killed in a side alleyway at 3.10/3.17am and 5 witnesses saw it but their evidence were all dismissed because there were a 100 people walked by pass alleyway at 3.10/3.17am. Sorry this is a weird argument to me.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

You must admit that the arguing she heard almost certainly came from Oscar's house.
I am sure the DT would have tried to find a female neighbour who was arguing (and screaming :wink: ) that night in a nearby house but couldn't find one.

Morning everyone ,sorry if this is interrupting ,I am playing catch up again .

Yes very possibly .
In any event i can't help but think that if there were other other people arguing that night they would have come forward because of all the press reports .
I certainly would have anyway .
By all accounts if the press report is true a witness from after the boating accident came forward to offer information but it wasn't deemed necessary to use it.

 

[Really?]

Just listening to some trial where Roux is questioning Ms. Johnson/Burger....I think she had a hard time understanding was Roux was questioning her about when her husband 'stuck to his version'.........this 'sticking to' was most likely right after OP murdered in Reeva Steenkamp....in cold blood.

he says to her.....'oh ****, did you hear that?'.......'sounded like 4,5 or 6 gunshots'

she says....'oh?...I only heard 4'

he sticks with 'version'........"no, I heard more....."

ok....back to some trial....:seeya:



P.s.......why did she use an interpreter.....shes' correcting the translation??

 

[wb180]

BBM

It was literally seconds before he fired the shots that killed his girlfriend. I'd be more concerned if he wasn't emotional at this very moment.

I guess one theory doesn't outweigh the other.

Sorry, that is wrong because he said he walked really slowly. So it wasn't seconds. But then the guy is a liar so maybe it was seconds. So I guess in a round about way, you may be right!

 

[Nausicaa]

[...]

However, I don't understand why there needs to be an explanation on what the first bangs were if the states' evidence shows the bangs at 3.17 were gunshot (i.e. evidence from witnesses).

Also not sure why we are assuming the bangs must be either bats or gunshots.

If the bangs at 3.00 were really gunshots, I don't know how the other evidence can fit in. Also only some witnesses heard this these bangs at 3.

It seems to me that we cannot absolutely rule out the possibility that there were indeed two sets of shots fired, one set at 3 am and one at 3.17.

While I appreciate the obvious difficulties entailed by this scenario, it has in its favour the explicit witness evidence, the second damaged door, the presence of more than one weapon, the mysterious fifth casing or cartridge, etc. It also overcomes the surprising speed of OP's actions following 3.17.

On this hypothesis, OP may well have actually wounded Reeva at 3 am, or at least terrified her, so that she fled to take refuge in the W.C. From there, OP had time to realise that his future was destroyed if she survived and prepared a deliberate plan to shoot her dead through the door. He had time to think it out and carry it out and to work out what preparations were needed to get the crime-scene ready to correspond to the story he was going to tell - e.g. disposal of spent ammunition.

Then at 3.17 he could swing into action, using the crack in the door to aim correctly as Crasshopper has suggested. And he could immediately break down the door (which in my view would not cause much noise at all) and act out the charade he had planned.

While murder in S.A. law does not necessarily require premeditation (mere intention is enough), this hypothesis involves true premeditation. I am not saying it is what happened, but I think it should be on the list of scenarios worthy of being debated. It may not be more credible than the Prosecution's account, but I personally find it more credible than the Defence's.

 

[Rumpole]

BBM

This is a very good point. It's been continually stressed that it would be improbable that 5 witnesses mistook a male voice for a female voice. It sounds a strong point, but in the grand scheme of things the determination of the gender of the screaming was made by residents from two properties, the furthest being almost 2 football pitches away in distance.

Throughout the case I haven't given the witnesses the same weight as if they were totally independent and from separate properties. That's just personal to me, and I guess each individual will have their own view on this. To me, it seems perfectly reasonable that a couple will discuss events that happen and reach some kind of a loose consensus based on certain aspects of the incident. It's human nature, and they wouldn't know at the time that they would be testifying as ear-witnesses to a murder.

It's also worth noting that from all the residents living within the Silverwoods Country Estate, the prosecution team only managed to locate one property whereby the residents would/could testify to having heard a woman screaming.

Similarly, from all the houses within the Silver Stream Estate, the prosecution team only managed to locate one property whereby the residents would/could testify to having heard a woman screaming.

Thanks.

It's getting to the point where it might be beneficial to have a separate thread to dispel "MYTHS" (As we had back in 2009 for the Casey Anthony case)

There are a growing number of things repeated so often that they are taken as fact.. when they are not at all. Rather than explain mistakes over and over, it might be a handy reference to have a "Myths" thread?

"5 independent witnesses heard a woman scream before the shots"

Would be a good myth to start with

There were only 4 for a kick off... no matter how many times people say "5" it really is only 4

And the 4 are NOT independent since they are in fact just two married couples.

 

[wb180]

It seems to me that we cannot absolutely rule out the possibility that there were indeed two sets of shots fired, one set at 3 am and one at 3.17.

While I appreciate the obvious difficulties entailed by this scenario, it has in its favour the explicit witness evidence, the second damaged door, the presence of more than one weapon, the mysterious fifth casing or cartridge, etc. It also overcomes the surprising speed of OP's actions following 3.17.

On this hypothesis, OP may well have actually wounded Reeva at 3 am, or at least terrified her, so that she fled to take refuge in the W.C. From there, OP had time to realise that his future was destroyed if she survived and prepared a deliberate plan to shoot her dead through the door. He had time to think it out and carry it out and to work out what preparations were needed to get the crime-scene ready to correspond to the story he was going to tell - e.g. disposal of spent ammunition.

Then at 3.17 he could swing into action, using the crack in the door to aim correctly as Crasshopper has suggested. And he could immediately break down the door (which in my view would not cause much noise at all) and act out the charade he had planned.

While murder in S.A. law does not necessarily require premeditation (mere intention is enough), this hypothesis involves true premeditation. I am not saying it is what happened, but I think it should be on the list of scenarios worthy of being debated. It may not be more credible than the Prosecution's account, but I personally find it more credible than the Defence's.

You may be right - that's why I don't understand why this is such a fatal flaw when you consider all the evidence in totality.

All I know is, we have evidence that RS was killed at 3.17am.

The defense ONLY explanation that this cannot be the case is that OP screams like a woman with no evidence to back this up. DT could have also said there were aliens in OP's house. That is still plausible too!

 

[wb180]

Thanks.

It's getting to the point where it might be beneficial to have a separate thread to dispel "MYTHS" (As we had back in 2009 for the Casey Anthony case)

There are a growing number of things repeated so often that they are taken as fact.. when they are not at all. Rather than explain mistakes over and over, it might be a handy reference to have a "Myths" thread?

"5 independent witnesses heard a woman scream before the shots"

Would be a good myth to start with

There were only 4 for a kick off... no matter how many times people say "5" it really is only 4

And the 4 are NOT independent since they are in fact just two married couples.

Sure it would be good to have some facts and myths so everyone is clear on what the facts are.

I would add another myth - the entire testimony of OP can be relied upon.

 

[lithgow1]

How about OP claiming two different guns he was holding fired 5 bullets without him intending to fire any of them?

What do you make of his absolute refusal to admit having his finger on the trigger in the Tasha's incident? Do you think it's just another example of refusing to accept responsibility or more of an attempt to brazen it out with an eye to having no criminal convictions at the end of all this because of his career? Maybe he is so terrified at the thought of prison that he won't admit to anything that might result in a prison sentence, albeit a brief one? Or is he just stupid?

Whatever the reason, I doubt anyone could convincingly argue that his refusal to budge one inch cast him in a good light.

 

[wb180]

What do you make of his absolute refusal to admit having his finger on the trigger in the Tasha's incident? Do you think it's just another example of refusing to accept responsibility or more of an attempt to brazen it out with an eye to having no criminal convictions at the end of all this because of his career? Maybe he is so terrified at the thought of prison that he won't admit to anything that might result in a prison sentence, albeit a brief one? Or is he just stupid?

Whatever the reason, I doubt anyone could convincingly argue that his refusal to budge one inch cast him in a good light.

To me, it means he is a LIAR. On. The. Stand.

Which means the state should charge him with perjury (if there is such a thing in SA) in addition to all his other charges.

 

[crasshopper]

BBM
...
It's also worth noting that from all the residents living within the Silverwoods Country Estate, the prosecution team only managed to locate one property whereby the residents would/could testify to having heard a woman screaming.

Similarly, from all the houses within the Silver Stream Estate, the prosecution team only managed to locate one property whereby the residents would/could testify to having heard a woman screaming.

See this doesn't bother me at all.

1) Who besides night owls like myself, is up at 2-3 am?
2) SA is 'dangerous' and OP and his neighbors have paid good money to live in some isolation both for exclusivity and security.
3) How many residents were also sleeping with their windows open? It was a warm muggy night and OP only had the windows open because the AC was broken. I would hazard most people were sleeping with their windows closed.
4) People have highly variable sleep patterns, I can and have slept through a tree crashing through my roof during a hurricane, only to notice it backing the car out of the driveway the next morning. My mother and sisters are exceptionally light sleepers and I was never able the sneak in late undetected in high school.
5) Sound can carry very far in flat, quiet, countryside and OP's bathroom window and possibly balcony doors were open.

 

[WilliamMunter]

Did Oscar Pistorius lie on the stand?

Interesting article on the boating accident. Apologies if it's a repost as I'm still catching up.

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2014-04-22-did-oscar-pistorius-lie-on-the-stand/#.U1jJeCe9KSM