Trial Discussion Thread #31

[Viper]

I have to defend myself. Heartbeat alone doesn't mean alive...

Sheesh who do you think they get hearts for transplant patients from?

Yes, please go on... opcorn:

 

[sorrell skye]

Since Dr. Saayman's testimony was blacked out, none of us know exactly what he said. We're left to pick at the pitiful scraps of excerpts the media deemed worthy of reporting.

I knew problems would arise when the Judge ruled that his testimony wouldn't be televised, and here we are.

We know her heart and liver were pale (ischemic i.e. insufficient blood flow) - due to severe blood loss from the gunshot wounds.

The liver is the most vascularized organ in the human body. 20% of the cardiac output rushes through it.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21452433

The fact that Reeva's liver was pale tells me that she suffered significant enough blood loss to the point that her liver became ischemic.

A person doesn't have to lose their entire blood volume to die from blood loss.

Class III Hemorrhage involves loss of 30-40% of circulating blood volume. The patient's blood pressure drops, the heart rate increases, peripheral hypoperfusion (shock), such as capillary refill worsens, and the mental status worsens. Fluid resuscitation with crystalloid and blood transfusion are usually necessary.

Class IV Hemorrhage involves loss of >40% of circulating blood volume. The limit of the body's compensation is reached and aggressive resuscitation is required to prevent death.

Bleeding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

According to the above information, as blood loss reaches 30-40% of circulating blood volume, the heart rate increases. This could account for the arterial spurts that Col van der Nest testified to.

 

[lisasalinger]

This is photo #55 that was taken by Van Staden at 5:58 a.m. This was shown to OP during cross exam and asked if anything was out of place, etc.

Then Nel also refers to this pic as #55, taken at 5:58 a.m. I believe one of the two is #55 and the other is #56, both taken at 5:58 a.m.

^^ so those were supposed to be the first photos taken of the bedroom after the incident. OP claims that the fan, duvet, jeans, curtains were not in those positions immediately after the incident and says they must have been moved.

This is another photo of the fan and same general area - #894 (?) that Van Ransburg testified about and said that this was not how things looked when he first viewed the crime scene. No time was given for this photo

I am not sure what to think. If 55 and 56 are really pics of the actual scene before anything was moved, then that does undermine OP's account - it couldn't have possibly happened the way he described. Unfortunately, we know that the crime scene was not handled properly, and we know that Botha and Van Rensburg went up and looked at everything before Van Staden went up and started taking photos.

If there weren't so many instances of mishandling the crime scene, we might be able to conclude that those pics are true depictions of the untouched crime scene. Given the mistakes during the investigation, however, there's no way to know for sure.

These pictures were shown and discussed during OP's cross examination on April 9 and April 11 if you want to view the archives and see it all for yourself.

BBM

The part that I bolded - Yes, thank you!!! that is precisely why I keep saying that these are not little things. All of those elements add up to what OP says happened that night.

So take the pictures and add them together with OP's clearly evasive, continually changing and flat-out untruthful testimony on the stand... and there is your truth. His story never happened the way he said it did!

In order for his story to work, you have to believe the following:

1. The police moved both of the fans. They also had to unplug the small one and turn both of them off.

2. The police moved the duvet from the bed down to the floor. Then they turned the jeans inside out and put them on top of the duvet and then sprinkled blood spatter on top of those items.

3. The police opened the curtains wider.

4. The police moved the magazine stand. Per our earlier conversation on this, the physical evidence in the toilet room does not support that the magazine rack was moved. Also, Mangena's testimony has Reeva on top of that stand in order for the bullet holes to line up with her head and arm injuries. Surely you do not believe Dixon's sequence of shots (eyeroll).

5. The Stipps never saw a bathroom light on. They are lying just for the sake of lying. And also, Dr. Stipp is a crappy doctor.

6. All of the neighbors that have testified have hearing problems - they are not able to understand the sound of a woman screaming nor can they identify gunfire. They are all very confused people.


If his stories were true... he would not have to challenge every single person and call everybody else a liar. It all completely defies logic and I prefer to live in the real world.

 

[nastasya]

Not sure what you're referring to. Both sides agree that the bullet hole with the crack through it definitively indicates the door was hit in that instance after the shot was fired. The strikes-shots-door evidence is a true Occam's Razor in this case. We have a door in evidence that indicates at least two distinct events - four shots and three strikes. We have ear witnesses that hear only two groups of clustered noises several minutes apart that all sound like gunshots. We have evidence, however unintuitive it may be, that hard bat strikes on a wood door sound like gunshots. Physical evidence on the door indicates that the one bat caused crack on which conclusions can be drawn came after the shot that it bisected.

Two events on the door, two sets of resulting sounds, evidence that one followed the other. It is one part of the case that reasons in a pretty straight, pretty objective line.

There were three events on the door:

Bat hits. Shots. OP breaking out panels with his hands.

The crack through the bullet hole is the one thing we know.

OP testified that the first bat hit only put a small hole in the door through which he could see Reeva. He also testified that he subsequently pulled the panels out into the room so as not to hit Reeva.

 

[Really?]

Steenkamp's friends believed Pistorius was trying to find out if she had been in contact with her ex-boyfriend, Warren Lahoud. Just 36 hours before she was shot, she met Lahoud for coffee.

"She told me how well she was doing," Lahoud later said. "She seemed happy."

This 'coffee date' is what the argument was all about IMO..it was just the day before he killed her......OP is jealous.

 

[nastasya]

Even if you think the state's forensic evidence was not conclusive, it can at least be said that the gunshots came before at least one of the cricket bat hits - the one that caused the crack in the door.

This is false.

The gunshot came before the crack through the bullet hole. OP testified that he broke the panel out with his hands so that bat hit did NOT cause the crack through the bullet hole.

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

This 'coffee date' is what the argument was all about IMO..it was just the day before he killed her......OP is jealous.

I do believe Oscar called her more than once during her 'meeting' with Warren?

To me the motive comprises of not one single event (like most seem to be hoping and looking for) but rather a series of events that snowballed and finally triggered.

I firmly believe that Oscar was a 'man on the edge' prior to, during and most CERTAINLY after the Olympic adoration.

1. The 'high' of the Olympics was history - along with the fame, additional sponsors and perks that came with it (Time magazine covers etc)

2. Sam Taylor and he - turbulent at best.

3. Oscar aggressive in public - challenging (vd Burgh, Batchelor)

4. The firearm incidents

5. Increased media interest in his 'darker' side (after the Olympics tantrum)

Snowballing.

I also believe the unpleasant financial meeting on the morning of the 13th would have seen OP in a foul mood in any event. In fact, the one message from Reeva in which she mentioned the 'hurdle' and his 'perhaps wanting to see his family that evening' IMHO showed the importance of this. In her 2nd message on the subject she suggested OP 'stay at Ryan's until he was 'finished'.
I interpreted this to mean, (from Reeva's perspective)
"He will be in a foul mood and relatively depressed, that is NO GOOD from what I have come to know. He won't be pleasant this evening and I am nervous of him coming home. I hope he stays at Ryan or goes to his family so that they can 'calm' him before he gets here. I'm not going to risk going back to Jhb because that will lead to a whole new chapter of drama. All I can do is HOPE he does go to his family, or stays at Ryan until he is happier/less moody-depressed. I'm relying on them to calm him and change his mood, because I won't be able to do this."

Just my opinion of course.

 

[Jake18]

I never said it, not once.

That was me, and I'm more than happy to retract it. My thought processes were : I read something Dixon said about a bullet fragment being found in Reeva's abdomen and wondered if it had done any damage. Then when I read of the liver was pale from blood loss I wondered if that was from direct liver trauma. But I'll readily admit to speculating. The thing is, every one of Reeva's organs would have been removed and examined but the media have largely commented on the most dramatic injuries. We'll never know if there were other injuries.

 

[jassy writer]

Boating accident lies...

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2014-04-22-did-oscar-pistorius-lie-on-the-stand/#.U1dkGlWSzh6

 

[shane13]

Thanks Cape.

Maybe I will say more later, but for now.

I never said or implied Labuschagne was the one. Too obvious, and doesn't fit. Your earlier posts sure implied a more likely person.

You did not really address my logic of who might have been called earlier and so had to do this--the essence of the logic.
Also seems to be too much emotion or personalness or a lack of knowledge on the deepest level of things... So although you repeat that you know exactly where I am coming from, that's doubtful.

We have to focus on what has actually happened, instead of aspects or past events, or personal knowledge, etc. What has actually happened--and not happened-- trumps any presumptions or wishful thinking.

At BH, on the Wed. Feb 20, IIRC, Roux informed everyone about the existence of the fifth phone--illegally taken from the crime scene. On re-ex on Thursday Nel put H. Botha back on the stand to tell the world he only first learned of its existence the afternoon before.

During Mag ruling, he admonished Botha for not obtaining the data from that phone, when we learned at trial now, a year later, that Roux did not even give it to Pros. until another NINE DAYS LATER.

As I have stated, the facts are that three judges and the prosecution have ignored this serious crime, and have not done, or called for, an investigation. This is clear and on record. There are no excuses.

Indeed it is sickening right here to see some posters keep saying there is nothing there because there's been no investigation--Circular logic at its worst!

Your post now seems to retract much of what you wrote earlier, even pointing to "well known phone hackers in Joburg." or such.

Here is a MSM piece on the admission at BH by Roux that DT has the 5th phone illegally taken/given to from the crime scene.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...hearing-hilton-botha-testimony_n_2725410.html

Anyway it's late here. I was hoping for more or other...
Though I have learned not to actually expect anything from anyone. I may re-read later.

I thank you kindly for your taking the time to do your post, Cape.
I am sure you are a very busy person. Take care.

 

[K.T]

Number one perpetrator of homicide for South Africa women is their boyfriend or husband.

Strange how people continually forgot or ignore partner homicide statistics when they throw around South African crime rate statistics to try to justify Pistorius. The defence cliché is that poor Pistorius was so petrified of crime that he killed a door four times.

Yet a relevant statistic is that South Africa has, by far, one of the highest rates of females killed by their partners. The most common motive for partner homicide is an argument. Internationally that’s such a dramatic rate, researchers are struggling to find answers.

Of the three known South African women who die because of their partners every day, the real rate is higher because many deaths are unsolved or not investigated. (Pistorius should be happy about that fact, well, before his own damaging testimony )

Dr Stipp said he was worried that Pistorius seemed suicidal after the killing. While I doubt Stipp's impression of Pistorius, in femicide-suicides the most common perpetrators are:

- Legal gun-owner
- Professional and white collar
- White male
- Average age of a female murdered by their partners is 30 yrs old.
- Median age of victim in femicide-suicide is 26 yrs old.
http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/86/7/07-043786/en/

South Africa’s highest crime rate of female murders, and the motive of their partners, is the revealing statistic and imo a distinctive criminal pattern relative to this case.

Pistorius’ living environment and careless security actions of that night shows he was not excessively terrified of intruders. He left the ladder and car outside, did not fix a simple broken window, required no bars on his windows, did not lock down anything…not the sliding doors, bathrooms windows or contractors who may have disabled the whole alarm system. etc.

 

[shane13]

I re-post per request earlier.

The Fifth Phone:
The Power of Logic ©Shane13 2013, 2014

First let me say again that this is a form of speculation, and no proof or certainty can be involved by this use of logic. As with a trial you each have to ‘rule’ whether it is likely true within certain bounds.

Follow the steps.

1. Taking evidence from a crime scene is a serious crime itself. It’s punishable by lengthy jail time if caught. Punishable also by disbarment if an atty does it.
2. Whoever took the 5th Phone likely knew that it was a crime with serious jail time a possible result if prosecuted. So why risk it; why take the 5th Phone?
3. Because they had to!
4. Why did they have to?
5. Because it would be worse for them if they did not!
6. What do I mean here? The person or persons who took the 5th phone had already known that they committed a more serious crime, and so faced a more serious charge if they did NOT take the 5th phone which revealed their earlier crime.
7. What could their earlier crime be? Perhaps Oscar called early on and described his assault on Reeva, or maybe she was shot once and there was a long pause. Note a year ago MSM reported a 10-17 minute gap between the 1st and last 3 shots from witnesses. Maybe there was more truth then than now?
8. Oscar may have early on called for advice to someone who then advised him horrifically that he could go to jail for a long time, if there was a living witness. Get it?
9. Anyone (say a sibling or atty) would have to race over there and get the 5th phone because its data records when they were called and possibly even their horrific advice.
10. Those who took the 5th phone had to know that they would likely get away with the crime, because of the deep nature of things.
11. So far borne out by the lack of a criminal charge or even the ordering of an investigation by Pros. and 3 judges.
12. Those in control always think that the public needs a scapegoat so W.O. Hilton Botha—who actually informed the world of crime scene theft a year ago [.38 ammo]—is made the public lapdog so as to divert away from those who took and gave the 5th phone to OIDT—Oscar’s inital defense team. One of whom has remained on with OP’s DT.
13. Once again this is logic and speculation. But now you know why the 5th phone was illegally taken and held for16 days. With—as I have proclaimed—the high probability that its data was altered a year ago. With Pros and judge going along with its data entered into trial, when it should have been disallowed as there is zero chain of custody.
14. The mention/stipulation on commencement of trial by Nel and then Roux, on March 25, and the subsequent excision of the first few minutes of all youtube videos of session 1, shows you how deep and how rotten this one runs. See if any other OP trial day’s Session 1 on youtube starts in mid-testimony of a witness. All others start with everyone standing as the Judge walks in.
15. And now you know why the guilty party had to take the 5th phone from the crime scene! JMO ©2013 Shane13

 

[crasshopper]

That sounds like Voodoo medicine to me.

We don't know how much blood she originally had, how much she lost on the floor or in th toilet and it really doesn't matter VIPER.

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

Thanks Cape.

Maybe I will say more later, but for now.

I never said or implied Labuschagne was the one. Too obvious, and doesn't fit. Your earlier posts sure implied a more likely person.

You did not really address my logic of who might have been called earlier and so had to do this--the essence of the logic.
Also seems to be too much emotion or personalness or a lack of knowledge on the deepest level of things... So although you repeat that you know exactly where I am coming from, that's doubtful.

We have to focus on what has actually happened, instead of aspects or past events, or personal knowledge, etc. What has actually happened--and not happened-- trumps any presumptions or wishful thinking.

At BH, on the Wed. Feb 20, IIRC, Roux informed everyone about the existence of the fifth phone--illegally taken from the crime scene. On re-ex on Thursday Nel put H. Botha back on the stand to tell the world he only first learned of its existence the afternoon before.

During Mag ruling, he admonished Botha for not obtaining the data from that phone, when we learned at trial now, a year later, that Roux did not even give it to Pros. until another NINE DAYS LATER.

As I have stated, the facts are that three judges and the prosecution have ignored this serious crime, and have not done, or called for, an investigation. This is clear and on record. There are no excuses.

Indeed it is sickening right here to see some posters keep saying there is nothing there because there's been no investigation--Circular logic at its worst!

Your post now seems to retract much of what you wrote earlier, even pointing to "well known phone hackers in Joburg." or such.

Here is a MSM piece on the admission at BH by Roux that DT has the 5th phone illegally taken/given to from the crime scene.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...hearing-hilton-botha-testimony_n_2725410.html

Anyway it's late here. I was hoping for more or other...
Though I have learned not to actually expect anything from anyone. I may re-read later.

I thank you kindly for your taking the time to do your post, Cape.
I am sure you are a very busy person. Take care.

The hackers or 'cleaners' would have cleaned his phone entirely. I do believe one of these fellas did it. No retraction there. I stated that they would have had a problem deleting or altering records of 'calls', as that would bring Vodafone into the equation, an independent 3rd party - who would have to alter calls logged from specific towers at specific times. This is what I find improbable, for the reasons mentioned earlier.

The police official and civilian I 'suggest' might be involved are the logical choices - all things considered.

I agree that the phone's disappearance was highly suspicious and that it was taken for a specific reason. Where I am not in agreement, is that this was part of a concerted effort by the NPA/State to derail the process.

If Oscar had called someone 'influential' earlier (his 'no longer' good friend, the Minister of Sport OR a High ranking police official he knew from the Hawks etc) I do believe this call would reflect on the Vodafone records - I don't believe anyone one individual in SA has the ability to dictate to Vodafone - just my opinion.

Hackers - yes: cleaners for want of a better word.


Perhaps Gerrie Nel also has doubts re: the phone, but by taking it further he would expose his own case to some trouble. He might have weighed up the benefits of exposing or 'closing'. Not sure.


Have a good evening. Chat again.

 

[lithgow1]

Here's a photo of Reeva's hair and brains blown into the back of the toilet seat.

Just think about this for a minute.

What if this was a simple domestic violence case where they argued, and OP killed her after she ran and hid from him in the toilet?

Dunno - your theory is plausible, logical, backed by evidence and relates to a crime which happens with saddening regularity. How can it possibly be true, especially given that Mrs Stipp corrected a statement and somebody might have stolen a watch.

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

How exactly do you surmise the broken hair, blood and brain matter got on there?

I'm guessing she reckons the police spent some time scraping matter and placing it in positions that would 'destroy' OP's version - even though they had no idea what his version was.

Maybe?

 

[crasshopper]

Shane Thank you, I did see your post about the hernia, I just forgot it was from you earlier this evening.



Very compelling points, that phone was removed and tampered with in a sophisticated manner, imo.

 

[lisasalinger]

The hackers or 'cleaners' would have cleaned his phone entirely. I do believe one of these fellas did it. No retraction there. I stated that they would have had a problem deleting or altering records of 'calls', as that would bring Vodafone into the equation, an independent 3rd party - who would have to alter calls logged from specific towers at specific times. This is what I find improbable, for the reasons mentioned earlier.
The police official and civilian I 'suggest' might be involved are the logical choices - all things considered.

I agree that the phone's disappearance was highly suspicious and that it was taken for a specific reason. Where I am not in agreement, is that this was part of a concerted effort by the NPA/State to derail the process.

If Oscar had called someone 'influential' earlier (his 'no longer' good friend, the Minister of Sport OR a High ranking police official he knew from the Hawks etc) I do believe this call would reflect on the Vodafone records - I don't believe anyone one individual in SA has the ability to dictate to Vodafone - just my opinion.

Hackers - yes: cleaners for want of a better word.


Perhaps Gerrie Nel also has doubts re: the phone, but by taking it further he would expose his own case to some trouble. He might have weighed up the benefits of exposing or 'closing'. Not sure.


Have a good evening. Chat again.

BBM

I agree with your thoughts on the phone, Cape. In particular, the parts that I bolded.

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

:ufo:

:ufo:

I have actually just spat out coffee all over my keyboard. :floorlaugh:

 

[shane13]

The hackers or 'cleaners' would have cleaned his phone entirely. I do believe one of these fellas did it. No retraction there. I stated that they would have had a problem deleting or altering records of 'calls', as that would bring Vodafone into the equation, an independent 3rd party - who would have to alter calls logged from specific towers at specific times. This is what I find improbable, for the reasons mentioned earlier.

The police official and civilian I 'suggest' might be involved are the logical choices - all things considered.

I agree that the phone's disappearance was highly suspicious and that it was taken for a specific reason. Where I am not in agreement, is that this was part of a concerted effort by the NPA/State to derail the process.

If Oscar had called someone 'influential' earlier (his 'no longer' good friend, the Minister of Sport OR a High ranking police official he knew from the Hawks etc) I do believe this call would reflect on the Vodafone records - I don't believe anyone one individual in SA has the ability to dictate to Vodafone - just my opinion.

Hackers - yes: cleaners for want of a better word.


Perhaps Gerrie Nel also has doubts re: the phone, but by taking it further he would expose his own case to some trouble. He might have weighed up the benefits of exposing or 'closing'. Not sure.


Have a good evening. Chat again.

BBM:
I never said that.

It does not take the whole "State" or whole "NPA" to cause machinations.

We are prob. in agreement on "the police offical" and the other likely culprit.
Although these are only possibilities. Crimes often end up revealing people you would never suspect.

The 5th phone and also the removal of the .38 ammo, the excision of the first few minutes of March 25 testimony are only among the most obvious [now] matters of illegality or irrgularity. Many--even here--have noted that so many questions were not asked of OP, and that Nel seemd to let him off the hook when he really had him.

The foul removal of the Constitutional right to Freedom of the Press in this case--even disallowing tweeting during testimony of Dr Saayman is revealing as well. I have given the analogous case in the USA when the Govt said it was too horriffic for the people to see, and what turned out in that case.


And I have said that I do not believe either sides "version" of the actual killing. Both, I have written are hiding the real nature of it. Indeed it's fascinating to hear each side use the word, version, instead of claiming that's 'what really happened." even iirc from day 1 or early on, Nel said 3;17 is when all shooting occurred, when I thought Dr Stip said 3;15 is when he heard alleged final shots.

All the above shows that 'This one runs deep.'