Trial Discussion Thread #32

[crasshopper]

Yes! Isn't it a coincidence that he stopped screaming and shooting at the very same time as the "intruder" was killed. What made him not shoot a couple more? Or one less? He was just wildly accidentally firing into a door after all.
...
Or as it is obvious Reeva STOPPED screaming.

Exactly this!
Why would he stop randomly shooting through a door or at a SILENT intruder or "moving wood?"

It is logical to conclude he had to have heard her screaming.

 

[james83]

A segment of Roux's cross examination of Dr Johan Stipp that sums up the absurdity of the defence's case

14.26 Roux again suggesting that OP's voice resembles a woman's screams when he's scared.

14.27 Stipp responds: Am I to believe that he screamed in two tones?

14.28 Stipp I also heard a male's voice intermingled

Roux replies: it sounded to you like it was intermingled

 

[PPKik]

They heard a women screaming right up until the last shot.

Thanks for explaining your viewpoint.

Unfortunately this makes me question the (two?) ear witnesses to this screaming even more seriously.

How could they be right? Doesn't that cause one to question these ear witnesses completely?

Reeva was shot fatally three times. Fatally. How could she possibly have been screaming through all these fatal shots? The description of the intervals of the gunshots varies. Whatever it was in actuality, seconds or minutes, how much screaming could one do in the condition she was in?

 

[sorrell skye]

Oscar probably looked for them (I'm sure if she was trying to leave Oscar would have tossed them somewhere in that room after grabbing them from her) when he 'disappeared' upstairs, and re planted them in her hand bag.

In the same way he planted his 2nd phone in the bathroom under the towel, allowing the police to think this WAS his only phone, whilst the other one was placed in his pocket......

For a traumatized man he sure was thinking pretty clearly.

:liar:

The previous thread closed before I was able to post this, so I'm bringing it over to this thread. Apologies for the long post.

Yes - Oscar-I'll-try-not-to-lie-Pistorius stated that he didn't look in Reeva's handbag when he retrieved it for the paramedics. During testimony, he hadn't been asked if he'd looked in her purse, so there was no reason for him to offer that curious bit of unsolicited information. Many of us here were taken aback when he said that and some compared it a child who announces "I didn't do it!" before they're even confronted with questions or blamed for a misdeed.

I, too, think he may have planted his 2nd (business) phone in the bathroom. According to phone logs, that phone hadn't been used to call Netcare that morning, so there was no reason for it to be on the bathroom floor.

Oddly enough, as we have learned, the one phone that he'd used after the shooting mysteriously disappeared from the crime scene.

If Reeva's phone was the one that was later found by Van Staden (crime scene photographer) beneath the bloody towels, I wonder if OP had gone upstairs to retrieve it, along with his personal phone, to remove it from the crime scene, as well. If so, he may not have been able to find it because it was covered by the towels.

On a side note, I don't believe OP's claim that he tried to call for an ambulance from Reeva's phone (but couldn't because he didn't know the passcode). As many other astute posters have pointed out - if that were true, why was his very first call (from his own phone) made to Stander, and not for an ambulance? If his primary concern was to phone for an ambulance, I think that would have been his first call from his phone - not a call to estate manager Stander.

IMO, OP's phone was smuggled from the crime scene due to his possible ignorance regarding technology and information retrieval. I think he believed that he could delete everything from his phone and that would be that (just as some criminals erroneously believe that deleted computer history takes care of any incriminating evidence).

I have no doubt that OP didn't want those incriminating whatsapp text messages between he and Reeva to be discovered, as they revealed that all was not well in paradise - not to mention that he had sent Reeva that text regarding the Tasha's restaurant incident.

We know he didn't go upstairs to wash up right after Dr. Stipp arrived, because OP testified that he later asked a police officer if he could wash up because he said the smell of the blood was making him ill.

I think OP went upstairs shortly after Dr. Stipp arrived so that he could retrieve his phone and possibly also Reeva's phone. If so, I think he was unable to find Reeva's phone because it may have been the phone that was buried beneath the bloody towels.

IMO, OP was in cover-up mode from the moment he called Stander, to when he told Baba "Everything is fine" to when he saw Stander, Clarice, Baba, another security guard, and then Dr. Stipp in his foyer/on his doorstep when he told them he thought Reeva was an intruder and shot her by mistake.

I think he was in cover-up mode during that unexplained trip upstairs immediately after Dr. Stipp said there was nothing more he (Stipp) could do for Reeva.

OP claimed that he sat with Reeva for 5 minutes in the toilet closet crying. But after a doctor told him there was nothing more that could be done he immediately left Reeva's side to go upstairs??? IMO, that was the time to sit with Reeva crying - but he didn't.

IMO, he disappeared upstairs while he had the chance before the police arrived, because he knew that once police were on the scene, he wouldn't be let out of their sight, let alone be allowed to return upstairs unaccompanied.

 

[fox1lady]

Exactly this!
Why would he stop randomly shooting through a door or at a SILENT intruder or "moving wood?"

It is logical to conclude he had to have heard her screaming.

How many bullets would have been in the gun?

 

[jimmy73]

Hi, new poster here. I've been enjoying reading the various theories and viewpoints, including the leftfield and unlikely

Does anyone know where the Johnson/Burger's house is relative to OP's house? I understand it's around ~180m away but in which direction?

 

[BritsKate]

Thanks for your explanation, Nausicaa, to my questions in your above post. I see, now, exactly what you are saying.



The one thing I do not agree with is that screaming by the victim could have been heard by anyone after the first shot.



I don't know what the ear witnesses heard or did not hear, but I do not believe if Reeva was hit by the second shot, and not the first (all of which it has been testified to would have been fatal), that she could have been screaming while being shot multiple times.



Even if the wounds had not been fatal, it defies my imagination that people from so far way, being woken up, would be able to identify screams through, or simultaneously, (presumably) with rapid-fire gunshots.

I can't bold the relevant portion but its my understanding Reeva was first shot in her hip which would have allowed for screaming during the shots.

Until the head shot, none of her wounds would have precluded screaming according to Saayman and Botha both. Only that wound was immediately incapacitating. Mangena and Dixon both state hip first with the first shot. Mangena testified it was the 2nd shot that missed; Dixon that the 2nd shot hit her in the arm.

Saayman stated it was improbable, if she was shot in the hip first, that she didn't scream. Botha, when questioned, confirmed this if allowed a few seconds between shots. (Michelle Burger's pause)




Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

 

[Viper]

I can't find anything that verifies that this gun came with a variable setting do you have a link?

Here, I was curious to read about it again:

93R: Chambered for the 9×19mm Parabellum as above, but capable of semi-auto, or three round burst. Weapon was originally equipped with a 13 round magazine and a 20 round magazine, as well as detachable butt stock. The "R" stands for "Raffica", which is Italian for "burst".

I do recall information about the gun being offered in this same variant but with a fully automatic option though. That information must have been updated and removed from Wikipedia. So the other shooter's gun would fire a burst of three bullets with each pull of the trigger. The recoil of three rounds being fired one after the other with a single pull of the trigger is why he shot the man in such a random spacing.

 

[james83]

Hi, new poster here. I've been enjoying reading the various theories and viewpoints, including the leftfield and unlikely

Does anyone know where the Johnson/Burger's house is relative to OP's house? I understand it's around ~180m away but in which direction?

It's in a north west direction if you were looking at the front of O.P's house.

 

[crasshopper]

How many bullets would have been in the gun?

Well we have heard there was at least "one up" or left in the chamber when the police retrieved the gun.

Otherwise personally I don't know.

 

[Mme Butterfly]

Mr Fossil, re the 5th phone which conveniently disappeared for 16 days. I live here in South Africa and we are all too familiar with the massive corruption in all things and our Justice system is no stranger to it either.

I fully accept his proven logic that all videos have excised the Nel stipulation of the 5th phone which went missing for 16 days. I've said before on WS one can sense that Shane is an "eerbare man" (a genuine, honest person). If he says he heard it, then you better believe it.

 

[BritsKate]

Bear in mind too that the defence itself has conceded the screams by ever suggesting it was Oscar.

To repeat from my mega-post on those screams: It was Roux himself who suggested the screaming Michelle Burger heard during the shots were in fact Oscar screaming when he realised it was Reeva he'd killed. Oscar testified he was screaming and shouting while he was breaking the door down (in the State version these are the shots). Then, once through the door (or after the last shot): silence. Oscar testified he didn't see the point of screaming then.

So...I don't think this can go both ways. Either witnesses heard a woman or they heard Oscar screaming like a woman.

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

 

[PPKik]

How many bullets would have been in the gun?

I don't believe I have read how many rounds were left in the magazine or what the capacity was.

It would all depend on the magazine's capacity, whether it was filled to capacity (considering OPs gun habits, it probably was filled.) I'd guess six rounds. Only a reasonable guess. The photos I have seen don't seem to show an extended magazine.


Here is a photo of OP with that 9mm.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/oscar-pistorius-pictured-gun-used-3193993

Taurus PT92 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

Thought this might interest you.

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-cou...ranted-leave-to-appeal-1.1680079#.U1lXvFc0ojg

These were the last 2 'gentlemen' successfully prosecuted by Gerrie Nel. Because they implicated the victims ex-husband (this was Shrien Dewani type set up) and agreed to co-operate with the state in this regard, Gerrie Nel asked for a 20 year sentence for the both of them.

The judge decided no, Life it would be. The have now been granted leave to appeal their sentence. They did only confess after convicted though, before sentencing (which is when Gerrie threw the 20 years on the table).

Another convicted 'wife murderer' who was granted leave to appeal a little while back was a former policeman from KZN, who stabbed his wife multiple times and then stabbed himself once in the stomach to make it look as though they had been 'attacked in their home' by intruders. He was convicted, but out on bail once more while waiting for appeal.

He was also in court as one of the accused in this incident below (interesting case this)
http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/roadblock-killing-not-self-defence-court-1.1679986

Oscar will be no different. The wheel turns far too slowly for my liking.

 

[jacalyn]

If he is not a male Jodi Aries! Maybe jail has a jailmatch.com, perfect connection. These cases are so similar, hope the endings will be same.

Finding all my information here and go to sites you recommend, just want to thank every one.

 

[Viper]

No one is certain about where the pool of blood was from other than one of Reevas wounds.

LOL! I remember differently. Read more at the link:

Quote:
"He said she most likely sustained the head wound somewhere in front of the lid.

The heavy flow of blood on the floor came from the continual bleeding from her arm."

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/analyst-explains-reeva-s-blood-trail-1.1663753#.U1lZ2L-9LTo


Thank you for challenging me though! :smile:

 

[PPKik]

Bear in mind too that the defence itself has conceded the screams by ever suggesting it was Oscar.

To repeat from my mega-post on those screams: It was Roux himself who suggested the screaming Michelle Burger heard during the shots were in fact Oscar screaming when he realised it was Reeva he'd killed. Oscar testified he was screaming and shouting while he was breaking the door down (in the State version these are the shots). Then, once through the door (or after the last shot): silence. Oscar testified he didn't see the point of screaming then.

So...I don't think this can go both ways. Either witnesses heard a woman or they heard Oscar screaming like a woman.

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

So, OP could have been screaming while shooting Reeva, or right after, or while breaking down the door, minutes after the shooting, or she could have been screaming while being shot? Or all of the above either in sequences or simultaneously?

Are these people who heard screaming willing to account for this many screams? I am trying to wrap my mind around this much screaming being heard by relatively few people. I genuinely can't grasp this.

 

[nastasya]

[Brought over from last thread.]



Whatever OP's motive or belief about the "intruder" really was, I'm not understanding how he "knew" he'd hit the person, or what the last shot has to do with his shooting three other times.

From the photos, it looks to me that a person could have stood between the toilet and wall and possibly not have gotten hit (if they had known they were going to be shot at).

I'm not at all suggesting anyone would have known he was going to shoot through the door, just wondering why you believe he knew he had "hit his victim with three of those hollow-nosed bullets," and what was different about the fourth shot?

Reeva stopped screaming after the head shot.

 

[nastasya]

My main point, PPKik, was that the situation gets worse for OP with each new shot as each one is very likely to kill the person, whoever it is, behind the door. But he can only risk killing someone in necessary self-defence. So what is different about the fourth shot is that there had already been three previous ones. That's all. He's not asking the court to find that he shot in self defence once but that he shot in self defence four distinct times. And as a matter of fact he successfully "killed" his victim several times over IYSWIM.

He's not asking the court to rule he shot in self-defense.

He now denies shooting in self-defense. He says the gun went off and it wasn't his intention to fire at the door.

 

[Carmelita]

Here, I was curious to read about it again:

93R: Chambered for the 9×19mm Parabellum as above, but capable of semi-auto, or three round burst. Weapon was originally equipped with a 13 round magazine and a 20 round magazine, as well as detachable butt stock. The "R" stands for "Raffica", which is Italian for "burst".

I do recall information about the gun being offered in this same variant but with a fully automatic option though. That information must have been updated and removed from Wikipedia. So the other shooter's gun would fire a burst of three bullets with each pull of the trigger. The recoil of three rounds being fired one after the other with a single pull of the trigger is why he shot the man in such a random spacing.

First you are quoting Wiki which is far from a reliable source , second from my reading all z88 Parabellums are at least semi-automatics, so capable of “semi-automatic” doesn’t make a lot of sense and “capable of a 3 round burst” doesn’t necessarily mean that it is an offered as a manufacturers option, but that it is manufactured in such a way that it could be modified have a 3 round burst.