Trial Discussion Thread #32

[Emz73]

I have always wondered if there aren't a number of people who heard screams or shots but haven't come forward. And do you blame them? Phone numbers being read out in court, witnesses reduced to tears in cross examination, being accused of lying...

It's Dr Stipp I have a huge amount of admiration for - he's got three children and he went to assist anyway even though he thought there was a family murder being carried out.

Mr Johnson stated that they intisally they didn't want to get involved. He assumed that there would be other neighbours who were much closer to the incident that would testify and they would not be needed. As more information came out in the media, they realised that there were no other witnesses were coming forth. Also he bumped into a neighbour, who said they didn't hear anything as they had there AC unit on.
They eventually went to the police as listening to the Oscars bail avi, they heard something different that night than Oscars version so felt compelled to come forward.

Taken from juror13 blog.

They didn't want the pubicity. I don't blame them!

 

[steveml]

The irony is that you brought up the sensational headlines by big bad Nel of "black talons" to make some point.

No one ever thought about the name but only the damage it caused.

My original post refers to the media sensationalism - the newspaper and media headlines were available for all to see at the time.
This was before any pictures of Reeva's injuries had been broadcast, and yes, the bullets were discussed in great length on the forum in the past.
Please have a look at the earlier posts.

I get the point that people are in support of a particular opinion, that's fine, but I shouldn't keep having to correct things that weren't established in my original post.

 

[Interested Bystander]

People here are (rightfully) still talking about the light issue.

I posted a satirical or biblical allegorical piece about why and when Op's story needs light or dark at that moment.,

I repost it here now as probably some of you missed it.

Let There Be Light © Shane13

In the beginning, there was light in the bedroom, as Oscar and Reeva argued for an hour.

Then Oscar said, ”Let there be Pitch Dark” and all was dark in his affidavit-world.
So Darkness had descended upon his bedroom.

But then his allibi-world needed some light and Oscar said, “Let there be LED—Blue.” And blue light descended upon his bedroom. So that Oscar could see Reeva allegedly in bed for a moment in time [like tears in the rain].

But then Oscar needed the Pitch Dark again, so that he could not see that Reeva was not in bed. So Oscar now said, ”Let there be Blue Denim Jeans” to bring forth Pitch Dark once again, in the bedroom. And so the blue light vanished, and there was pitch dark descended again upon the bedroom. And Oscar and Roux said all was good.

And because Oscar next needed noise and an excuse to chase after Reeva into the bathroom where she now hid for her dear life, Oscar said, ”Let there be a noise of opening a window in the bathroom. And lo and behold, a miracle occurred, and the bathroom window opened upon itself!

And Oscar then said all was good—I mean bad. And then Oscar descended upon the alleged intruders. And with great [self-]righteousness, Oscar slayed the alleged intruder trapped behind the loo door.

And as he soon allegedly cradled his actual victim, poor Reeva, in his arms, Mr Baba called from on high, and asked Oscar, what was going on at his home, as people heard gunshots,
and Oscar then said, ”Everything is Fine.”

And later there was Nel to bring back the light, we all hope…
And if not, let the People in their wisdom bring light to this, for Reeva deserves the light of truth and justice.

Let there be light.

Well worth a second read. Excellent!

 

[IfIMay]

I don't think anyone said it was so faded they couldn't read it.

But seriously, if the jeans were obviously so big they couldn't be Reeva's, do you think the prosecution would just neglect this and proceed on the assumption that they were Reeva's? I guess it's possible that they know the jeans are Oscar's but they're saying they're Reeva's because it fits their theory better - but in that case, you would expect Oscar to mention that those weren't Reeva's jeans.

Either way - I cannot fathom that both sides would accept that those were Reeva's jeans if there was some doubt over that.

why confront a liar about it? The jeans (or picture of them) are in evidence. He can argue based on the size (if known) whatever he wants.

 

[lithgow1]

Yes but that is a different scenario from what I am imaging. If he had been chasing Reeva with the gun I can understand the continuous screams, but not the screams intermingled with the shots because if she knew he had a gun I doubt she would be standing so close to the door, it would make more sense that she be cowering in a corner to avoid any shots. To me it makes more sense that Reeva was standing close to the door because she was listening to what was going on after hearing OP react as if there was someone in the house.
Sorry if I missing something here, it is all very confusing.

I can see the sense in what you are saying for sure, even though I do not believe Pistorius's version at all. It could have just been a matter of the precise timing - she runs screaming down the passage, he's a little behind if he's without his prosthetics, she gets into toilet, slams door, locks it, and at that moment, as she's still standing there, he enters the bathroom and fires ... prompting the heightened scream after the first shot. But who knows. As you say it is confusing and only one person knows the exact truth.

We only have his word for it as to how he entered, how long he waited before firing and so on and I have no confidence in that. Anyway, it will be interesting to see other responses to your suggestion.

 

[Nausicaa]

BBM - that's interesting. Maybe when OP said he had never 'screamed and cried' like that before in his life, he was thinking back to when he heard Reeva screaming and crying, and added that in as his own experience (and of course to 'explain' why people 'thought' they heard Reeva).

Exactly Soozie. Every good sleuth has to put himself in OP's place both on the night and when he was in court. OP could not be absolutely certain who had heard what on the night. Hence the story he made up had to fit in with certain events which he knew had happened and which might conceivably have been heard. This is why he correctly reports his words "Get the fvck out of my house!", and this is why he represents himself as screaming long and hysterically. We can be quite sure that Reeva's actual screams were very terrible, which of course is why they travelled so far through the night air.

There are in my view other titbits of OS's evidence which he put in to match potential witnesses who in fact have not come forward or have not been called.

 

[steveml]

In my mind when I try to picture the shots being fired and hitting Reeva, I count to four and find it easy to imagine that Reeva did not scream. I find it harder to imagine the screams intermingled with the shots. How much screaming can a person do to the count of four quick fire shots? I find it easy to imagine that the shots hitting her would have stunned her and left no time for screams. I just say one two three four, in normal timing and it is just too short a time. Even shorter if the shots were fired in quick succession. One two three four.

That's a very valid point.

The concept of time can be easily misconstrued when we hear things broken down step by step in the courtroom. I think much of the misunderstanding comes from the witness statements as well. Charl Johnson said he thought he heard 3 or 4 screams, whereas Annette Stipp who was probably describing the same screaming testified that, 'the screaming continued...it didn't stop'.

Both the statements can be correct, although one gives us the impression that the screaming continued for minutes and the other a mere few seconds.

 

[soozieqtips]

Exactly Soozie. Every good sleuth has to put himself in OP's place both on the night and when he was in court. OP could not be absolutely certain who had heard what on the night. Hence the story he made up had to fit in with certain events which he knew had happened and which might conceivably have been heard. This is why he correctly reports his words "Get the fvck out of my house!", and this is why he represents himself as screaming long and hysterically. We can be quite sure that Reeva's actual screams were very terrible, which of course is why they travelled so far through the night air.

There are in my view other titbits of OS's evidence which he put in to match potential witnesses who in fact have not come forward or have not been called.

And of course his screaming and crying like he'd 'never' heard himself scream and cry before was suspiciously missing from his affidavit - like so many other details. I'm sure all this rubbish hasn't got past the Judge! At the time of his affidavit, he didn't know Michelle Burger had heard 'bloodcurdling screams' so he couldn't add that in.

 

[Apollo]

People here are (rightfully) still talking about the light issue.

I posted a satirical or biblical allegorical piece about why and when Op's story needs light or dark at that moment.,

I repost it here now as probably some of you missed it.

Let There Be Light © Shane13

In the beginning, there was light in the bedroom, as Oscar and Reeva argued for an hour.

Then Oscar said, ”Let there be Pitch Dark” and all was dark in his affidavit-world.
So Darkness had descended upon his bedroom.

But then his allibi-world needed some light and Oscar said, “Let there be LED—Blue.” And blue light descended upon his bedroom. So that Oscar could see Reeva allegedly in bed for a moment in time [like tears in the rain].

But then Oscar needed the Pitch Dark again, so that he could not see that Reeva was not in bed. So Oscar now said, ”Let there be Blue Denim Jeans” to bring forth Pitch Dark once again, in the bedroom. And so the blue light vanished, and there was pitch dark descended again upon the bedroom. And Oscar and Roux said all was good.

And because Oscar next needed noise and an excuse to chase after Reeva into the bathroom where she now hid for her dear life, Oscar said, ”Let there be a noise of opening a window in the bathroom. And lo and behold, a miracle occurred, and the bathroom window opened upon itself!

And Oscar then said all was good—I mean bad. And then Oscar descended upon the alleged intruders. And with great [self-]righteousness, Oscar slayed the alleged intruder trapped behind the loo door.

And as he soon allegedly cradled his actual victim, poor Reeva, in his arms, Mr Baba called from on high, and asked Oscar, what was going on at his home, as people heard gunshots,
and Oscar then said, ”Everything is Fine.”

And later there was Nel to bring back the light, we all hope…
And if not, let the People in their wisdom bring light to this, for Reeva deserves the light of truth and justice.

Let there be light.

There is light!! The darkness of OP has been brought to light by the Stipps who saw light in the loo.

 

[steveml]

Just a quick update on the SA woman who shot the alleged intruder (her husband) 4 times. It's a happy ending - sort of.

As the bullets weren't fatal the husband isn't going to press charges, and the couple are going to sort it out amongst themselves. :waitasec:

 

[Emz73]

This has just been posted by Barry Bateman. Article from Every African women.
http://everyafricanwoman.com/?p=1608

 

[DebinGA]

There is light!! The darkness of OP has been brought to light by the Stipps who saw light in the loo.

Amen!!!

 

[Viper]

Molly, I'm the one who has been arguing for threads and threads that what Prof Saayman actually said was that the head shot incapacitated her, stopped her breathing and rendered her unconscious but "would not have necessarily killed her straight away". Crasshopper found a report stating that both the DT and PT were in agreement that she died on the stairs. And Prof Saayman specifically testified about the scream tailing off - I see no reason to disbelieve him.

BIB. I see no reason to disbelieve Dr. Saymaan either Jake. So in fairness, is it responsible for some forum members to take what he said (paraphrasing), "Reeva would have died in a few minutes", and make that out to be "Reeva would have died in nine (9) minutes?"

Nine minutes without breathing, no brain function, and two severed arteries is just too much time for Reeva's heart to still be beating. Further the minimal blood loss in the bathroom is so telling. We can see a small blood pool in the WC, it is unmistakable! But on the bathroom floor it just looks like blood that settled from Reeva's blood soaked hair and clothes, those are not blood pools from continued bleeding.

Other than Nest, all of the evidence points to a conclusion that Reeva's heart stopped beating in the WC. Can you disagree? If so what evidence, other than Nest, who has already quickly changed his opinions about what was or was not arterial spurt, can you point to that goes against my opinion?

 

[Paysee]

Hi Britskate,

I'm guessing this is addressed to me? I'm sorry and I will try to be clearer in my posts, I was not stating that it was never said, I was simply stating that it was speculation, even if it was testified to by the states expert.

A lot of things were said at trial, surely they are not all facts as they are mutually exclusive statements.

Can you really call an expert's testimony speculation? Isn't it evidence?

I mean an expert, whose expertise - education and experience have been accepted by both the PT and DT. Not a geologist giving ballistic, blood splatter and medical testimony.

 

[patCee]

BIB. I see no reason to disbelieve Dr. Saymaan either Jake. So in fairness, is it responsible for some forum members to take what he said (paraphrasing), "Reeva would have died in a few minutes", and make that out to be "Reeva would have died in nine (9) minutes?"

Nine minutes without breathing, no brain function, and two severed arteries is just too much time for Reeva's heart to still be beating. Further the minimal blood loss in the bathroom is so telling. We can see a small blood pool in the WC, it is unmistakable! But on the bathroom floor it just looks like blood that settled from Reeva's blood soaked hair and clothes, those are not blood pools from continued bleeding.

Other than Nest, all of the evidence points to a conclusion that Reeva's heart stopped beating in the WC. Can you disagree? If so what evidence, other than Nest, who has already quickly changed his opinions about what was or was not arterial spurt, can you point to that goes against my opinion?

Hi Viper, if your theory is right, what do you think the implications are re her death and OP's culpability? Sorry if you've already explained and I missed it.

 

[steveml]

How far can a chicken run after you've chopped its head off ?

Quite a long way actually, as we all know, because the nerve impulses to the legs, unlike OP's handgun, are fully automatic. They tend to go one happening until a counter-order comes from the brain (not possible without head) or until the body becomes physically unable to continue because muscles are not being reoxygenated, etc.

In the same way, screaming in humans cannot usually be initiated after interruption of the brain-nerve-muscle pathway but might conceivably be continued for a short time.

Then again you have an apparent example of post-mortem scream initiation in the case of the unearthly blood-freezing scream of Captain Nolan when he was shot and instantaneously killed right at the start of the Charge of the Light Brigade (1854). Its quality was such that men who had heard never forgot it for the rest of their lives - it was entirely involuntary and a matter of nerves continuing to function.

Witness credibility cannot be undermined by our own limited powers of imagination.

Yep, that's one of the theories regarding Captain Nolan, another being that he was shot in the chest cavity and the noise was air escaping. I guess we'll never know.


Psst. Try not to say too much about the Charge of the Light Brigade, as Lord Cardigan wrote in his own words that Captain Nolan rode 'screaming like a woman'.

We'll keep that between ourselves tho. :wink:

 

[steveml]

Can you really call an expert's testimony speculation? Isn't it evidence?

I mean an expert, whose expertise - education and experience have been accepted by both the PT and DT. Not a geologist giving ballistic, blood splatter and medical testimony.

An expert witness testimony isn't evidence in itself, it's just that they are testifying to have the required knowledge, experience etc. to provide more accurate theory than a lay-person. Their specialized knowledge can then be applied to the aspects of the case by the judge or jury. In many trials the DT and PT expert witnesses often dispute each others claims.

Mr Dixon's situation was rather unusual.

 

[shane13]

Someone's IMDB dreamcast for the coming biopic;

'My dream cast for a Oscar Pistorius trial bio-pic:

1. Oscar - Ryan Gosling, Hayden Christensen or Guy Pearce. Wild card choice: Pauly Shore.
2. Gerrie Nel - Daniel Craig for sure. Or Mel Gibson. Wild card choice is Jim Carrey if he wants to reboot his career. Besides, he played a lawyer in Liar Liar.
3. Judge Thokozile Matilda Masipa - Lupita Nyong'o or Whoopi Goldberg.

Supporting roles could be filled by Barkhad "Captain Phillips" Abdi, Cameron Diaz (playing one of the defence lawyers) and Morgan Freeman.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2844006/board/thread/228228284


Of course, some people think only Oscar should play himself. He is probably one of those.

Cast calls require the male lead actor to be able to scream like a woman, say "everything is fine" while his beloved girlfriend is dying in front of him, and many other difficult acting abilties. Whoever plays Oscar could likely get an Oscar.

Oh and must be able to point a gun without aiming it.

 

[crasshopper]

BIB. Whoa! You are not getting away that fast. LOL! (Joking)

Nest has already changed his mind and said that the "arterial spurt" above the bed was not arterial spurt, he conceded that it could also have been blood cast off from OPs hands. If you consider the amount of time that passed between Reeva being shot three times and when she was brought downstairs, at least 9 minutes, and if you consider that Reeva had not one but two severed arteries, her breathing had stopped and her brain functions had stopped, it would literally be a miracle if her heart had still been beating by the time that OP carried her down the stairs. It would be impossible.

Therefore there has to be a mechanical reason for the blood over the railing and on the staircase wall. Cast off from Reeva's blood soaked hair is likely, compression and decompression too.

LOL back at you! You aren't getting off that easy either
If the blood spatter experts say the areas in question were incorrectly described as arterial spurts then so be it but compression/decompression could not imo recreate the pathognomonic undulations characteristic of an arterial spurt. Blood could be ejected but not with that pulsatile pattern. I'll wait for further testimony and so we have more information.

If you could provide the source where Nest changes his mind, that would be great too.

Edit: I do take issue when you use terms like "impossible," because one just doesn't know nor have we heard the experts discuss this at length.

 

[Paysee]

I don't know if has been asked of him but I would guess his answer would be that he told Reeva to phone the police and thought that she would and he was taking immediate action to protect himself and Reeva.

BBM

Now this is speculation.