Trial Discussion Thread #39 - 14.05.14 Day 32

[G.bng]

Me too! I've never seen the State pursue an independent psych exam of a defendant midtrial - have you? (Just adding what I'd already had typed out below so if it seems disjointed, that's why...)

My mental health nurse husband said that IF Oscar really is mentally ill, it's highly disturbing that his team was fighting this.

I think that about says it all. Usually it's the defence to petition the court for such an assessment and often pretrial. Almost any mental health illness can be argued for the accused's benefit - so why didn't, why wouldn't, his defence team fully endorse this?

My thinking, honestly, is that there is either nothing wrong with him and they're concerned they'll lose the testimony to bolster putative, which means we're back to the only evidence for putative is from Oscar's mouth - and his testimony does not prove his claim...or there's something 'worse' with him that also can't be considered to be remotely helpful to his defence.

MOO

Me too! I've never seen the State pursue an independent psych exam of a defendant midtrial - have you? (Just adding what I'd already had typed out below so if it seems disjointed, that's why...)

My mental health nurse husband said that IF Oscar really is mentally ill, it's highly disturbing that his team was fighting this.

I think that about says it all. Usually it's the defence to petition the court for such an assessment and often pretrial. Almost any mental health illness can be argued for the accused's benefit - so why didn't, why wouldn't, his defence team fully endorse this?

My thinking, honestly, is that there is either nothing wrong with him and they're concerned they'll lose the testimony to bolster putative, which means we're back to the only evidence for putative is from Oscar's mouth - and his testimony does not prove his claim...or there's something 'worse' with him that also can't be considered to be remotely helpful to his defence.

MOO

But what if an accused's defence doesn't realise their client has diminished capacity.

IMO there have been too many cases of learning disabled adults being wrongly tried and convicted for there to be any usual, correct, or whatever time to bring such a matter to the attention of the court.

A fairly recent case of an overturning of a wrongful murder conviction in the US was only achieved thanks to the Innocence Project taking up the case some 20 years on. They proved the accused could not be guilty and that he made a false confession under pressure by the police who presumably didn't realise he was learning disabled otherwise I would have to consider them as evil beasts.

A learning disabled or mentally unsound accused is quite likely not to bring up his disabilities up as many consider themselves "normal". Like the case of Barry George when it took 8 years and two appeals before his LD was brought to the attention of the court by his defence and finally on evidence proving 3 witnesses had wrongly identified him he was acquitted. And ewn radio just referred to an SA case where a grandmother bought the mental disability of an accused to the attention of the court mid trial. So surely, and I am absolutely not saying this is OP's case. And although it is obviously preferable before rather than after it has to be always better after than never at all.

 

[anagrammy]

I agree with Masipa's curiosity - "Strangely the defense opposes this..."

I truly believe they are opposing it because the intense psych eval is going to now be a part of the official record and I believe it is NOT going to bode well for Oscar at all. I've got a good hunch he is going to be found to have extreme narcissistic tendencies.

I think Roux is afraid the experts will discover what we already know-- OP IS A PATHOLOGICAL LIAR and a person completely lacking in the most basic empathy for other human beings.

I don't think they care about narcissism or borderline --They are afraid he will be found to be a sociopath or even a psychopath. It will be hard for him to hide his complete contempt for anyone who imposes on his will.

 

[christee]

Ok, didn't realize Uncle Arnold was a shopping developer, designer or somesuch...

Gael ‏@GaeMar01 18m
A Colonel in SAPS & SA top criminal profiler is #OscarPistorius aunt, Dr Micki #Pistorius & his uncle Arnold is www http://twincity.co.za

 

[BritsKate]

Thing is though, it's not like OP is having to try and show he has some kind of condition like being a psychopath or something .. we're only talking about GAD here, and I would think that would be quite easy for him to trick them into believing he does actually have that. OP is an absolute master of manipulation, I can see him getting through this test with flying colours.

I really wouldn't be so certain of that. I think he's likely afflicted with something like NPD though obviously I could well be wrong. But, from my experience...

Someone with NPD is absolutely a master manipulator. Those that love them will do practically anything to excuse away the actions of their loved one. It's really incredibly difficult to reconcile someone you love could be so callous, selfish, and cruel. So your brain seeks to explain it - denial, justification, excuses. Part of the disorder is manipulation itself and as such, someone with NPD will quickly learn what buttons they have to push to get the result they want with people who love them.

In this regard, if his 'go to' manipulator to get his way with those who love him has always been to cry and vomit, he becomes conditioned to cry and vomit in situations apart from his loved ones too. He believes this will work because it has in the past.

In long-term scenarios and stressful situations, they can't maintain their manipulation. A clinical environment, where he is psychologically being poked and prodded by multiple psychiatrists, if he does have NPD, is going to be extremely stressful for him. He will not be able to maintain a facade. He'll go through his playbook of manipulators nonetheless, becoming more stressed and anxious each time one that's worked previously fails. And they will if he's NPD...a narcissist can fool a handful of people, who don't know what NPD looks like, in short intervals, though many will know something is 'wrong' regardless (family, co-workers, friends etc.) but their disorder is always much more apparent when they are scrutinised. That won't be lost on a panel of psychiatrists who, I presume, are very well acquainted with the display of NPD symptoms.

All JMO

 

[ColonelMustard]

Thing is though, it's not like OP is having to try and show he has some kind of condition like being a psychopath or something .. we're only talking about GAD here, and I would think that would be quite easy for him to trick them into believing he does actually have that. OP is an absolute master of manipulation, I can see him getting through this test with flying colours.

imho, he'll get a complete work-up. GAD may have brought him in the door but they'll have to exclude everything ... and the DMS-5 is very thick.

 

[G.bng]

I hope so too!

I am not a betting guy but I have seen many signals already on how Masipa does things and it doesn't look pretty for OP.

IMO if Masipa showed or gave anything out except fairness and equanimity as IMO she did when giving her reasons for this order then IMO she would not be valid as a judge and should be removed from the bench. But I think she is extremely equanimous and will, as a judge should wait, for all the evidence to be presented to her to then retire to then start her analysis of the case and start to decide.

 

[DebinGA]

http://www.news24.com/Live/SouthAfr...ffering-defences-for-Oscar-Pistorius-20140514

Another short interview with Booth

TY, lithgow1, for these interesting links.

Booth describes OP's 4 versions:

self-defence/accident/no awareness he'd fired/diminshed capacity at time

Booth also suggests Roux called Dr. Vorster, and her GAD finding, to excuse OP's poor performance on the stand.

 

[ColonelMustard]

hope he hands those sketches in for the assessment...

They'll have him make his own. It's called art therapy and it's full of spys.

 

[sleuth-d-]

The cynic in me says OP will have all the best 'coaches' telling him how to act and what to say during these tests to achieve the outcome the defence wants.
I just can't help thinking the defence has pulled a fast one here knowing their case was hopeless................surely Dr.V was told what to say by Roux and he knew this would be the outcome?

he has been an outpatient during the trial, he had the best coaches telling him how to act and what to say pre-trial - uncle arnold even went on record to say he would be 'ready' for the trial - and look what happened under cross exam...

[nel had six days with him, for only a couple of hours a day, loads of breaks]

op will not like the lack of control, or being questioned... outpatient or not, this 30 day assessment is going to be a huge problem for him. moo

 

[kaos]

I'm guessing all of the psychiatric team involved will also testify which should be interesting if any of them have followed the case in the press.

 

[ColonelMustard]

Just a thought.

Could it have been Frank who was screaming for help?

:drumroll:

Now THAT'S interesting.

 

[Lyra500]

I only realised today that Nel's first name is pronounced like "harry". Very weird, I've come to think of him as a "Jerry"

I have to admit that due to the SA accent I have often thought it sounded as if they were saying "Hairy Nel" :blushing:

 

[anagrammy]

Just a thought.

Could it have been Frank who was screaming for help?

:drumroll:

Not unless Frank screams like a woman. Who knows? Maybe all these SA men scream like women when they are upset. It could be a cultural thing. (tongue firmly in cheek).

 

[soozieqtips]

he has been an outpatient during the trial, he had the best coaches telling him how to act and what to say pre-trial - uncle arnold even went on record to say he would be 'ready' for the trial - and look what happened under cross exam...

[nel had six days with him, for only a couple of hours a day, loads of breaks]

op will not like the lack of control, or being questioned... outpatient or not, this 30 day assessment is going to be a huge problem for him. moo

BBM - I think it depends how much time is spent evaluating him, and under what circumstances. On the stand, he was evasive and defensive because he was worried about incriminating himself (hello ship that sailed) - but he might actually enjoy being evaluated because all the attention will be on him!! The weird comforting methods in court used by his family and psychologist, which were better suited to a toddler, in my opinion - won't be a factor under evaluation unless OP experiences the same emotions which caused him to break down in court and need soothing. At the moment, we have no idea how many hours a day he'll have to attend. If it's just an hour or two, and then back to life as normal, I don't see how it would achieve anything useful, so there must be more to it than that - I hope!

 

[G.bng]

I think the judge HAD to. Clarity is required.

I thought Nel would probably not take the application forward but it did occurr to me that maybe the Judge would... remember during OP's testimony Masipa offered OP time out, a long one, as she said she needed him to be "all there" so as to be fair on him and on the court.

 

[Nausicaa]

IMO if Masipa showed or gave anything out except fairness and equanimity as IMO she did when giving her reasons for this order then IMO she would not be valid as a judge and should be removed from the bench. But I think she is extremely equanimous and will, as a judge should wait, for all the evidence to be presented to her to then retire to then start her analysis of the case and start to decide.

That's just not how the human mind works, G.bng. You can't just switch off your critical judgement for a few weeks and then switch it on again later. The judge will already have reached many conclusions about the relative value of the different witnesses she has heard and there is no reason for her not to have a provisional view that OP is going to be found guilty.
What is a little surprising is her allusion to being punished twice as this (a) seems to let the cat out of the bag that he is going down and (b) seems to imply that psychiatric evaluation is a punishment.
However, everyone in the world except perhaps OP already knows he's going to get a custodial sentence and I think the psychiatric evaluation will feel like a punishment to OP who does not believe and has not claimed that he is suffering from any syndrome and doesn't even think he should be on trial at all.

 

[lithgow1]

Andrew Harding says OPs family are about to make a statement....

 

[Cherwell]

But what if an accused's defence doesn't realise their client has diminished capacity.

IMO there have been too many cases of learning disabled adults being wrongly tried and convicted for there to be any usual, correct, or whatever time to bring such a matter to the attention of the court.

A fairly recent case of an overturning of a wrongful murder conviction in the US was only achieved thanks to the Innocence Project taking up the case some 20 years on. They proved the accused could not be guilty and that he made a false confession under pressure by the police who presumably didn't realise he was learning disabled otherwise I would have to consider them as evil beasts.

A learning disabled or mentally unsound accused is quite likely not to bring up his disabilities up as many consider themselves "normal". Like the case of Barry George when it took 8 years and two appeals before his LD was brought to the attention of the court by his defence and finally on evidence proving 3 witnesses had wrongly identified him he was acquitted. And ewn radio just referred to an SA case where a grandmother bought the mental disability of an accused to the attention of the court mid trial. So surely, and I am absolutely not saying this is OP's case. And although it is obviously preferable before rather than after it has to be always better after than never at all.

That's all very well, but there is no comparison between Pistorius and the likes of Barry George.

Pistorius shot Reeva Steenkamp dead, there is no dispute over that. He was sufficiently mentally capable of proving that he knew when it is lawful and unlawful to shoot. He is not "learning disabled" and I for one believe he knew exactly what he was doing.

 

[Viper]

When someone poses a danger to the community aren't they put in jail until verdict? His psychiatrist said he was dangerous.

Agreed! She should have had him commited, not to jail but rather to a psychiatric hospital, the moment that she determined he was a danger. OP better be careful with this, I doubt that these new doctors, that OP isn't paying, will be so nonchalant. They will find a bed for him if needed.

 

[kaos]

andrew harding ‏@BBCAndrewH 42m

Pistorius's uncle Arnold welcomes judge's "thorough" ruling and says it gives family "confidence" in justice system.

Then why on earth did Roux fight it?