Trial Discussion Thread #44 - 14.07.1-2, Day 34-35

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MsMarple said:
rsbm rbbm

Agoraphobia? Oh no no no. Since the night OP killed Reeva he's been out and about. An agoraphobic doesn't go to restaurants, clubs, vacation resorts. Oh no.

I have experience with agoraphobics; they do not do these things. Social anxiety, yes, agoraphobia, no way.

This makes me wonder what exactly "significant scores" means. It also makes me wonder how far beyond relying on OP's self-reporting the evaluators traveled when assessing him.
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Yep, that really annoyed me when the 'agoraphobia' thing was brought into play yesterday .. I also have experience of people with agoraphobia as I used to attend a support group for people who suffered from panic attacks (as I used to, hence why I used to go there) and this really is an insult to people such as those I met who really do suffer from this debilitating disorder .. unlike OP, they really cannot set foot outside of their front doors, they can't even attempt it without having a panic attack (proper one, not just a 'throw away remark' one). No, OP has been attending court, and the assessments, every day that he has been required to and he has had no problem with that. Had he actually had agoraphobia, he would have had extreme difficulty leaving his house every morning and getting into that car and then getting out of it in order to walk into the courthouse every day. Has anyone actually seen him have a problem with it, because I haven't? Once again, just like when the DT tried to convice us he had GAD (as an excuse for killing his girlfriend), this is a complete insult to those who really do suffer with the condition. I'm thoroughly disgusted by all the various tatics used by the DT, not only this but things like keep throwing his mother and his father under a bus all the time. The whole lot of them should be ashamed of themselves.
 
soozieqtips said:
Viper - from that text:

Those who know him describe him as gentle, respectful and conflict avoidant.

Now I'm wondering just who it was they evaluated! Who are these people who described him that way, his family? Clearly they didn't speak to any of the people he raged at in his 'gentle and respectful' manner. Conflict avoidant? In what universe!

ETA - Did any of the psyche team talk to members of Reeva's family or her friends? I'm thinking not.
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Because these conclusions were derived from "experts" how much weight does it hold compared to witness testimonies of his Anger.

I think this may have unfortunately wiped out the notion that he killed Reeva in a fit of jealous rage
 
jay-jay said:
Yep, that really annoyed me when the 'agoraphobia' thing was brought into play yesterday .. I also have experience of people with agoraphobia as I used to attend a support group for people who suffered from panic attacks (as I used to, hence why I used to go there) and this really is an insult to people such as those I met who really do suffer from this debilitating disorder .. unlike OP, they really cannot set foot outside of their front doors, they can't even attempt it without having a panic attack (proper one, not just a 'throw away remark' one). No, OP has been attending court, and the assessments, every day that he has been required to and he has had no problem with that. Had he actually had agoraphobia, he would have had extreme difficulty leaving his house every morning and getting into that car and then getting out of it in order to walk into the courthouse every day. Has anyone actually seen him have a problem with it, because I haven't? Once again, just like when the DT tried to convice us he had GAD (as an excuse for killing his girlfriend), this is a complete insult to those who really do suffer with the condition. I'm thoroughly disgusted by all the various tatics used by the DT, not only this but things like keep throwing his mother and his father under a bus all the time. The whole lot of them should be ashamed of themselves.
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Exactly. You said it better than I could. Anyone who's dealt with an agoraphobic knows all about the debilitating effect it has on their life and the lives of those who love him or her.

So... GAD makes people shoot the ones they love and Agoraphobia means a killer gets a little nervous when he has to answer questions.

Argh - I had to delete the rest of my comment....
 
zoran said:
Because these conclusions were derived from "experts" how much weight does it hold compared to witness testimonies of his Anger.

I think this may have unfortunately wiped out the notion that he killed Reeva in a fit of jealous rage
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Well... like the "expert" Dr today, he was using untested "truths"(the emails) to back up his statements and claim. I guess we'll see how much the judge decides of his testimony is relevant to RS's murder.
 
cottonweaver said:
Great to have it posted.

This is the Defence appointed psychologist Leon Fine I suppose. He's happy to have that quoted into the record of course. Do the other 3 psychiatrists need to be unanimous on that or just the criminally responsible point? I want to see Fine x-d by Nel but looks like no chance of that now.

Apparently they are withholding rest of report on basis/excuse that it refers to private details about OP family members. ( Same law firm that fought for right to televise trial maybe be fighting the restriction.)
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Quick note: Cotton corrected the post above. Leon Fine is the psychiatrist for the defense. He and the psychiatrists for the state and the prosecution, all three, signed the one page document that said Oscar knew right from wrong and was able to act in accordance with this knowledge. The psychologist's (Scholtz) report was requested by the defense and this is the one that we may not publish.

Now for some local gossip about this matter...

Representative of News24 on channel 199 says that it was only after OP's sister, Aimee, and a friend made photocopies of the reports that the request were made not to publish the reports.

The media houses in SA are not happy about the way information have been withheld from the public in this trial while much more graphic evidence in other trials are in the public domain. Why does OP get special treatment?

Channel 199 and other media houses say that this affects their freedom of speech and the public's right to know. They will not leave it there. As I understand they have already made an application in this regard.
 
About Dr Vorster's GAD diagnosis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kvIPW305_o

1:09:30

Earlier Dr Merryll Vorster quite readily admitted that her diagnosis was based on what she was told by Oscar and his family and friends.

At about 1:09:00 she gives an explanation for inconsistencies between OP's statement to her and OP's testimony in court.

At 1:09:30 Nel asks her if the inconsistencies in OP's testimony could simply be because he's lying. Dr Vorster says: "Yes, he could just be lying. That's another explanation."

And now three psychiatrists have found that OP has no GAD.
 
zoran said:
Because these conclusions were derived from "experts" how much weight does it hold compared to witness testimonies of his Anger.

I think this may have unfortunately wiped out the notion that he killed Reeva in a fit of jealous rage
Click to expand...

The experts only said he has no disorder. They never said he can not lose his temper or become angry. I guess it's more about the distinction between reasonable anger and unreasonable anger than saying he never gets angry.

Part of his defense is the flight/fight response to stress. In court he described emotions of fear and terror...a flight response. Which means he should have run away. This is what the flight response is. Emotions of fear make you run away.

The polar opposite of the flight response is the fight response. If he had a fight response he would have described feeling anger when he grabbed the gun and went after the intruder. Emotions of aggression make you fight.

The interesting thing is that OP consistently described emotions of flight and actions of fight. Very strange since these are polar opposites. You either feel one or the other, but never both at the same exact time. It is possible to feel flight and fight in the same experience, but not at the exact same time.

Anyway.

His defense is that he shot because he was afraid. First the defense tried to say there was a psychological basis for his fear...GAD. But since it was proven he had no psych problems at the time, they are now only saying that he was afraid because he's disabled and he is more vulnerable than normal people and so he is constantly awash in adrenaline and primed to shoot. An adrenaline junkie.

One problem with that is that adrenaline junkies go looking for trouble.

Of course all this must happen because he has to explain to the judge why he was so afraid. She has to be able to put herself in his shoes and ask herself if his explanation of his fear can be true.

A problem with this type of defense is that it can also be argued that because of his disability he had self esteem problems and so he was extra jealous and possessive of Reeva and so got into an argument, etc.
 
How can one be diagnosed with agoraphobia when it's suggested Pistorius, between shooting and trial, does all this?

  • Goes on holiday and engages in water sports in the open harbour
  • Gets into private plane by walking on airplane tarmacs to go to Mozambique pre-trial holidays and then, during trial, flies private jet on mini-breaks to the family collection of holiday homes
  • Trains in open-air running stadiums
  • Goes to restaurants meeting his buds and strangers at night
  • Strolls around mall getting pictures taken with fans
  • Is seen shopping at car lots
  • Reported to be riding outside in quad bikes with family

Pistorius' family properties briefly discussed in this article - http://www.witness.co.za/index.php?showcontent&global[_id]=96515

Feeling a bit bemused at the state of leading South African medical and technical reports given through the trial.
 
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