Trial Discussion Thread #48

[foxbluff]

[I've copied/pasted below Val's post#892 from Pg. 36 of last thread] :

Yes he is OP's contractor friend...
http://drum.co.za/celebs/hes-heartbroken/

I note he's calling the thunderclaps gunshots in this article...
http://www.capitalbay.com/mobile/mob...th-adored.html

Perhaps that's what OP was thanking him for in this:
https://twitter.com/MediaSlut/status...290560/photo/1
######################################################################

Thanks, Val, I so love the way you answer a Q!! Thanks @Liesbeth for responding so quickly w/the needed name of OP's "buddy." As soon as I opened the capitalbay site, I reconized the photo of OP, RS, and his monkey and the quote "Pistorius' best friend Christo Menelaou, who took the picture." Oddly enough, I had recently come across this puzzling notation in my older case notes: "Christo Menelaou - OP's best friend." I scratched through the latter part and put Q-mark next to name.

It's been a long time since I've heard anything about the monkey. I thought I read that OP got rid of it and assumed that took place prior to RS's death. However, since the photo was taken just four days before her death, I must be wrong.

So where was the monkey that fatal night? Perhaps sleeping at Frank's where he saw no evil, heard no evil, and spoke no evil!?!?

 

[Val1]

[I've copied/pasted below Val's post#892 from Pg. 36 of last thread] :

Yes he is OP's contractor friend...
http://drum.co.za/celebs/hes-heartbroken/

I note he's calling the thunderclaps gunshots in this article...
http://www.capitalbay.com/mobile/mob...th-adored.html

Perhaps that's what OP was thanking him for in this:
https://twitter.com/MediaSlut/status...290560/photo/1
######################################################################

Thanks, Val, I so love the way you answer a Q!! Thanks @Liesbeth for responding so quickly w/the needed name of OP's "buddy." As soon as I opened the capitalbay site, I reconized the photo of OP, RS, and his monkey and the quote "Pistorius' best friend Christo Menelaou, who took the picture." Oddly enough, I had recently come across this puzzling notation in my older case notes: "Christo Menelaou - OP's best friend." I scratched through the latter part and put Q-mark next to name.

It's been a long time since I've heard anything about the monkey. I thought I read that OP got rid of it and assumed that took place prior to RS's death. However, since the photo was taken just four days before her death, I must be wrong.
So where was the monkey that fatal night? Perhaps sleeping at Frank's where he saw no evil, heard no evil, and spoke no evil!?!?

I was under the impression it was CM's pet... hopefully someone else knows for sure. Oh, and thanks!

 

[Lux et Veritas]

The Epic Fall of Oscar Pistorius

Drunk? Picking fights? Hangover-tweeting Biblical verses the next morning? Atonement and desperate plea for public sympathy! This is a tale of Two Oscars - the public face and private face.

It appears that Oscar is coming apart very publicly. (We won’t even mention his partying in April last year...or the new girlfriend he scored last December on vacation in Mozambique.) WHAT IS HE THINKING?!! Is this the carefully-crafted image he’s been trying to portray since the “accident” and during the entire trial - a broken, suffering man in agony? Well, yes - but he’s not grieving for Reeva - only for his lost lifestyle and career.

Icy reality is finally causing him to unravel - he has lost it ALL, totally self-inflicted. His temper not only killed Reeva but his own life. This past weekend proves that Oscar Pistorius has got serious character and anger issues - and has had for a long time.

Perhaps his lonely, tormented conscience is hoping someone will beat him up (or even kill him?) - penance for his grievous act? Such an end would be quick and preferable to the prison he knows is headed straight his way. He’s already becoming persona non grata (being the egotist he is, I’ve no doubt he voraciously keeps up with media and the twitter-sphere).

Prison would be the ultimate hell for a man like him - it would transform him into an invisible shadow, just another prison number...the worst fate ever for a man who once reigned as a global demi-god. In his heart he knows he’s a murderer and liar - in his heart of hearts he knows he deserves punishment...the cosmos demands a balancing of the scales. I think the terrible guilt and stress is finally getting to him. He’s tried and failed to convince the world - and himself - it was all a terrible, tragic “mistake” - that somehow he's still a "hero".

With this latest disturbing behavior and cryptic, desperate, self-serving tweets (i.e. see, God is on my side - no, really, I'm a good person!), he may not survive till the Judge’s verdict. This is clearly a man in deep crisis. He’s standing at a crossroads. His latest tweets are practically begging someone - ANYONE - to save him. (See what a nice guy I am - I help little disabled kids!! LOOK at the photos! Remember?! I’m a great guy, right?!)

I think the truth has finally hit Oscar Pistorius - he is not invincible. Money, family, Olympic hero status cannot save him from himself.

 

[Val1]

[I've copied/pasted below Val's post#892 from Pg. 36 of last thread] :

Yes he is OP's contractor friend...
http://drum.co.za/celebs/hes-heartbroken/

I note he's calling the thunderclaps gunshots in this article...
http://www.capitalbay.com/mobile/mob...th-adored.html

Perhaps that's what OP was thanking him for in this:
https://twitter.com/MediaSlut/status...290560/photo/1
######################################################################

Thanks, Val, I so love the way you answer a Q!! Thanks @Liesbeth for responding so quickly w/the needed name of OP's "buddy." As soon as I opened the capitalbay site, I reconized the photo of OP, RS, and his monkey and the quote "Pistorius' best friend Christo Menelaou, who took the picture." Oddly enough, I had recently come across this puzzling notation in my older case notes: "Christo Menelaou - OP's best friend." I scratched through the latter part and put Q-mark next to name.

It's been a long time since I've heard anything about the monkey. I thought I read that OP got rid of it and assumed that took place prior to RS's death. However, since the photo was taken just four days before her death, I must be wrong.

So where was the monkey that fatal night? Perhaps sleeping at Frank's where he saw no evil, heard no evil, and spoke no evil!?!?

Wow, just went to check something in those two bottom links and it looks like someone has scrubbed them already.... we have a mole!! :/

Gee, maybe they should scrub this one too, just in case Roux decides to use his timid witnesses to appeal...

http://uk.onlinenigeria.com/latest-additions/117093-reeva-steenkamp-pistorius-could-go-free-as-pictures-of-blood-spattered-bathroom-could-wreck-case.html

He told the Sunday People that when he first began investigating the killing he knew of two potential key witnesses who had been scared off talking to police.
He said: 'They changed their minds. It sounds to me like someone spoke to them and they don't want to get involved.'

 

[eimajjjj]

I remember reading somewhere recently (goodness where, I've trawled so many articles!) that Nel and Roux have faced off before, and Nel won the case. Does anyone have any more information on this? Seems like they know each other pretty well in the courtroom, I just watched Thursday 10 April session again and Nel replies to one of Roux's objections with 'Mr. Roux knows how I build my case..'.

EDIT: Found some info:

"Barry Roux and Gerrie Nel dealt with one another during the Kebble investigation but have met in courtrooms on a number of other occasions. The most notable was in 1999, in the case of Kempton Park dentist, Dr Casper Greef, who was accused of paying a handyman to kill his wife and make it appear to be a robbery. Roux lost that round to Nel when Greeff was convicted and sentenced to life in prison."

 

[Cherwell]

Wow, just went to check something in those two bottom links and it looks like someone has scrubbed them already.... we have a mole!! :/

Gee, maybe they should scrub this one too, just in case Roux decides to use his timid witnesses to appeal...

He told the Sunday People that when he first began investigating the killing he knew of two potential key witnesses who had been scared off talking to police.
He said: 'They changed their minds. It sounds to me like someone spoke to them and they don't want to get involved.'

http://uk.onlinenigeria.com/latest-additions/117093-reeva-steenkamp-pistorius-could-go-free-as-pictures-of-blood-spattered-bathroom-could-wreck-case.html

Well, that evens things out :floorlaugh:

 

[jacalyn]

Oscar Mystery #948 - OP actually expected to find Reeva still in bed after FOUR LOUD gunshots?!! Seriously???

Wouldn’t a reasonable woman be terrified and scream out to her boyfriend to confirm he was safe - not knowing if it was HE who had been shot?!!! (Remember, it was “pitch black” and Reeva couldn’t possibly see who was shooting in the bathroom.)

Yet OP insists that Reeva never, ever said one word, never made one sound and never screamed that entire time. Not only that, she NEVER called the police as OP repeatedly instructed her! 100% pure bullsh#t. His version is simply not in the realm of possibility. If I heard even one gunshot, never mind four, I’d be hiding, running, screaming, calling 911 or all of the above.

Gunshots do not elicit silence - they elicit raw, primal FEAR.

Wow, you only posted a few times and we need to hear more from you. Thought you wrote this to the point with perfection. Thank-you.

 

[ColonelMustard]

François Moller's testimony in chief-examination (the cellphone expert) :

Moller is being led by Nel to explain exhibit ZZ-3 : Reeva's phone detailed billing chart of 13 February

NEL : " Now, if one would use application like Whatsapp and/or Facebook how would that be indicated on the detailed billing ? "

MOLLER : " M’Lady all the social media communications will take place by means of the GPRS connections. "

… Moller goes on explaining various incoming and outgoing calls featured in ZZ-3 …

Moller skips ahead and explains the very last GPRS connection which started at 20:04:17 on 13 February and was uninterrupted until 7:28:06 on 14 February.

Nel asks Moller to skip back and explain the GPRS connection immediately before that last one.

Moller explains that the second to last GPRS connection started at 20:04:00 and lasted 17 seconds.

NEL : " Now to establish if this was a Whatsapp or what this was, one could refer back to the download report of her handset ? "

MOLLER : " That is correct M‘Lady, one would have to go back and have a look in the download report if one can actually find any application that made use of the internet for communication and mostly, in this case that she was a regular user on Whatsapp, one will have to go and look at the Whatsapp messages. "

NEL : " So if there’s a Whatsapp message at the same time that would indicate this connection with the internet ? "

MOLLER : " That is correct M’Lady. "

Reference : Oscar Pistorius Trial: Tuesday, 25 March 2014, Session 1 – starting at 17:53


Nel was very insistent on this particular and very brief GPRS connection… he basically invited Judge Masipa to look in the download report, in the Whatsapp messages, at the specific time of 20:04:00.

I may be wrong but I just can't imagine Nel would say all this if nothing relevant or useful to his case was to be found there.

First of all, AJ, THANK-YOU for your detailed reply!

I want you to know that, for me, your information, timelines, perspectives, opinions, etc., are INvaluable. I know you haven't been here long because I remember your very first post. But don't go anywhere soon - I would miss your posts GREATLY!!

Now, at risk of revealing my technical ignorance (and please forget my next questions if they make no sense at all in light of your reply), what is significant about what you've laid out here? Is it that two connections were made simultaneously? If so, what might that mean? And/or is it the content? If so, what might it be? I really want to understand this.

Again, thanks for being on WS and expending so much of your time and energy.

 

[geevee]

Yes most definitely… to establish to extent of the diminished responsibility.

It would have been a battle of psyche-experts and character witnesses.

Defence arguments would have been along the lines of : OP is a good boy, not at all a danger to society, highly unlikely to repeat such an incident, isolated 'perfect-storm' type of circumstances, seeking psychological help, etc…

The funny thing is that MANY of what was heard in testimony which is totally irrelevant to the current Trial would have been relevant to this alternate Trial :

- The $h!tty news OP received that day
- The pressures of Valentine's Day
- The hot and humid day
- The lack of air-conditioning
- The bum shoulder
- The athlete's career who's future was coming to an end which was weighing heavily on OP's mind
- … and who knows what else would have been put forth if OP had told the truth.
- … and many other thing that OP could have 'safely' stated to stretch circumstances in his favor

In this version, the referral would have found many factors to support the Defence's case.

Then bring forth a battery of experts to confirm those allegations : pressures of being a professional athlete, etc...

BBM

You just reminded me, didn't he text Reeva earlier that his right shoulder was 'stuffed', and he said he slept on the left side of the bed so he could face Reeva because of his injured right shoulder - but all during his version he never mentioned his shoulder, leaning against it on the wall when he shot, the kickback of the gun and how it should have made it hurt worse, the injured shoulder affecting his aim at all - I wonder why nothing else was mentioned about his shoulder?

 

[ColonelMustard]

François Moller's testimony in chief-examination (the cellphone expert) :

Moller is being led by Nel to explain exhibit ZZ-3 : Reeva's phone detailed billing chart of 13 February

NEL : " Now, if one would use application like Whatsapp and/or Facebook how would that be indicated on the detailed billing ? "

MOLLER : " M’Lady all the social media communications will take place by means of the GPRS connections. "

… Moller goes on explaining various incoming and outgoing calls featured in ZZ-3 …

Moller skips ahead and explains the very last GPRS connection which started at 20:04:17 on 13 February and was uninterrupted until 7:28:06 on 14 February.

Nel asks Moller to skip back and explain the GPRS connection immediately before that last one.

Moller explains that the second to last GPRS connection started at 20:04:00 and lasted 17 seconds.

NEL : " Now to establish if this was a Whatsapp or what this was, one could refer back to the download report of her handset ? "

MOLLER : " That is correct M‘Lady, one would have to go back and have a look in the download report if one can actually find any application that made use of the internet for communication and mostly, in this case that she was a regular user on Whatsapp, one will have to go and look at the Whatsapp messages. "

NEL : " So if there’s a Whatsapp message at the same time that would indicate this connection with the internet ? "

MOLLER : " That is correct M’Lady. "

Reference : Oscar Pistorius Trial: Tuesday, 25 March 2014, Session 1 – starting at 17:53


Nel was very insistent on this particular and very brief GPRS connection… he basically invited Judge Masipa to look in the download report, in the Whatsapp messages, at the specific time of 20:04:00.

I may be wrong but I just can't imagine Nel would say all this if nothing relevant or useful to his case was to be found there.

First of all, AJ, THANK-YOU for your detailed reply!

I want you to know that, for me, your information, timelines, perspectives, opinions, expertise, cognitive gifts, etc., are INvaluable. I know you haven't been here long because I remember your very first post. But don't go anywhere soon - I would miss your posts GREATLY!!

Now, at risk of revealing my technical ignorance (and please forget my next questions if they make no sense at all in light of your reply), what is significant about what you've laid out here? Is it that two connections were made simultaneously? If so, what might that mean? And/or is it the content? If so, what might it be? I really want to understand this and I feel like I'm pretty close to "getting it".

 

[AJ_DS]

BBM

You just reminded me, didn't he text Reeva earlier that his right shoulder was 'stuffed', and he said he slept on the left side of the bed so he could face Reeva because of his injured right shoulder - but all during his version he never mentioned his shoulder, leaning against it on the wall when he shot, the kickback of the gun and how it should have made it hurt worse, the injured shoulder affecting his aim at all - I wonder why nothing else was mentioned about his shoulder?

The 'stuffed' shoulder message was not on 13 February but some days earlier… IIRC OP said something like he was going to skip training that day because of shoulder injury.

 

[AJ_DS]

First of all, AJ, THANK-YOU for your detailed reply!

I want you to know that, for me, your information, timelines, perspectives, opinions, expertise, cognitive gifts, etc., are INvaluable. I know you haven't been here long because I remember your very first post. But don't go anywhere soon - I would miss your posts GREATLY!!

Now, at risk of revealing my technical ignorance (and please forget my next questions if they make no sense at all in light of your reply), what is significant about what you've laid out here? Is it that two connections were made simultaneously? If so, what might that mean? And/or is it the content? If so, what might it be? I really want to understand this and I feel like I'm pretty close to "getting it".

Thanks ColonelMustard.

I would hate to have to disappoint you but there is noting particularly significant about the timing of the message… the only thing is that Reeva most probably sent a Whatsapp message just before she activated a Hotspot on her phone to be able able to work on the laptop computer.

The content of that message is the important bit… as Nel indicated to Masipa to go and have a look in the Whatsapp data.

I can't really speculate on the content of the message... there is absolutely no information to infer its content

However, I strongly suspect Nel would not have gone to all the trouble to specifically point out this GPRS connection if the Whatsapp message was irrelevant to the State's case… and the fact that Roux did not address it at all means that it is not helpful to the Defence.

Hope this helps … feel free to ask more questions if I was not clear enough… english not my first language and I suck at typing !!

 

[ColonelMustard]

One thing I LOVE about all of this is my understanding that Masipa will explain the court's decision in detail. In the US, essentially it's "guilty" "not guilty" and that's it. I will LOVE knowing how she/they came to their conclusion.

That being said, it took her about 30 minutes (ok, it's an exaggeration) to explain her ruling on Nel's application for OP's mental health evaluation. Given the length of this trial, how long will the reading of her verdict likely last? A couple of days?

Also, closing arguments on 8/7 and 8/8. Can they go longer? I DO hope so!!

 

[Hatfield]

Thanks ColonelMustard.

I would hate to have to disappoint you but there is noting particularly significant about the timing of the message… the only thing is that Reeva most probably sent a Whatsapp message just before she activated a Hotspot on her phone to be able able to work on the laptop computer.

The content of that message is the important bit… as Nel indicated to Masipa to go and have a look in the Whatsapp data.

I can't really speculate on the content of the message... there is absolutely no information to infer its content

However, I strongly suspect Nel would not have gone to all the trouble to specifically point out this GPRS connection if the Whatsapp message was irrelevant to the State's case… and the fact that Roux did not address it at all means that it is not helpful to the Defence.

Hope this helps … feel free to ask more questions if I was not clear enough… english not my first language and I suck at typing !!

Hello AJ DS

I just want to thank you as well for all the great posts and information you provide to this case. You have helped me (and I am sure others) learn more about some of the finer details in the case, so...

THANK YOU !!!

 

[ColonelMustard]

Good point … I agree

I always believed that if OP had come clean and said that in heated argument that spun out of control, he fired at Reeva in a moment of blind furious anger, OP could have mounted a diminished responsibility Defence similar to to those road-rage incidents.

Doing so would have had the double benefit of being the truth (which is always good) but also avoiding embarrassing and contradicting testimony on the stand.

Pleading guilty to the 3 minor gun related charges would have also greatly helped and avoided further embarrassing and contradicting testimony.

With an honest and voluntary participation to a psyche-eval on those basis, OP would probably have been deemed to have suffered from automatism and his responsibility would have been greatly diminished.

But, as you stated, OP opted for the 'all in' scenario… probably because he believes (incorrectly) that he can always win.

Do you think OP has total control of the defense behind the scenes or does Uncle Arnold actually ever overrule him?

 

[ColonelMustard]

OP admitting to ANY wrongdoing? NEVER!!!

Everyone is a liar or simply mistaken. Let's take a look at the list of people OP accuses of lying.

LIARS
Sam Taylor - liar (shot through sunroof)
Daren Fresco - liar (said "one up" at Tasha's/shot through sunroof)
Baba - liar ("everything is fine, security")
Police - liars (moved evidence)
Dr. Stipp - liar (bathroom light on/woman scream)
Mrs. Stipp - liar (bathroom light on/woman scream)
Burger - liar (woman scream)
Johnson - liar (woman scream)
Van der Merwe - liar (arguing/woman scream)
Reeva - liar (scared of him)
Roux - liar (double taps/mistakes on bail application)
Nel - liar (entire case)

Now let's look at, based on evidence, what OP lied about since the DT did not prove otherwise.

OP LIED ABOUT
Tasha's (I did not pull trigger)
Shot through car sunroof (never happened)
Illegal ammo (it's dads)
Where large fan was and that it was on (blocks access to balcony where he says he called for help/turned off)
Where small fan was and that it was on (in corner, facing curtains/unplugged)
Where the duvet was (jeans on top of it/lines up with blood trail on carpet)
Felt for Reeva behind the curtains (iPad, hair clipper, cords in the way)
Time of shots (his first phone call at 3:19 claimed she was still breathing)
Netcare told him to take her to hospital
Called Stander because he couldn't pick up Reeva (he walked down the stairs carrying her unassisted)
Where the magazine rack was (blood pool around leg of rack)
Magazine rack made a wood noise (she was standing in front of and close to door when first shot-not near rack)
They were asleep (she was fully dressed in gym clothes and had eaten recently)
Reason Olympic roommate requested to be moved

And finally, discrepancies in his own account of what happened (i.e. lying/tailoring evidence).

DISCREPENCIES
Double taps / no double taps
Went onto the balcony / never went onto the balcony
1 fan / 2 fans
She was asleep / she talked to him "can't sleep, baba?"
Heard noise, went into bathroom and noticed window open / heard window slam against frame
Realized intruder was in toilet because he noticed toilet door was closed / heard toilet door slam
Heard movement / heard wood sound and thought it was the door opening
Putative self defense / accident. Didn't intend to fire shots into door

I'm sure this is not a complete list, but at the very least it illustrates that OP is a liar and not credible. If his credibility is called into question by milady, then his entire account of that night is worthless. MOO

Is this the kind of tabulation/calculation Masipa and (the other two up there) will do? Will they make lists like this for everything? If not, how will they do it? It's such a MASSIVE amount of info. to cull through.

Another question: Might those three watch/rewatch any/all of live streaming trial videos that we're all watching? To me, how someone says what they say is as important - if sometimes not MORE important - than what they say.

 

[AJ_DS]

Hello AJ DS

I just want to thank you as well for all the great posts and information you provide to this case. You have helped me (and I am sure others) learn more about some of the finer details in the case, so...

THANK YOU !!!

You are very welcome Hatfield !

 

[ColonelMustard]

Oscar Mystery #948 - OP actually expected to find Reeva still in bed after FOUR LOUD gunshots?!! Seriously???

Wouldn’t a reasonable woman be terrified and scream out to her boyfriend to confirm he was safe - not knowing if it was HE who had been shot?!!! (Remember, it was “pitch black” and Reeva couldn’t possibly see who was shooting in the bathroom.)

Yet OP insists that Reeva never, ever said one word, never made one sound and never screamed that entire time. Not only that, she NEVER called the police as OP repeatedly instructed her! 100% pure bullsh#t. His version is simply not in the realm of possibility. If I heard even one gunshot, never mind four, I’d be hiding, running, screaming, calling 911 or all of the above.

Gunshots do not elicit silence - they elicit raw, primal FEAR.

Especially if they are as loud as these are supposed to be.

 

[AJ_DS]

Do you think OP has total control of the defense behind the scenes or does Uncle Arnold actually ever overrule him?

I'm not sure about that one… OP is pretty young and Uncle Arnold seems to be the patriarch of the Pistorius clan and he has been present in Court every day except after the 'leaked' video… so I would imagine OP consults with him.

I suspect everyone in the family knows he is guilty of murder even if I'm pretty sure OP has never admitted it… those people are not stupid… so they adopt the adage "blood is thicker than water" and stick by OP's side no matter what.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Wow, you only posted a few times and we need to hear more from you. Thought you wrote this to the point with perfection. Thank-you.

Why, thank you very much for your kind words, Jacalyn! : )

I am SO enjoying reading everyone's comments!