Trial Discussion Thread #7 weekend thread

[Estelle]

Maybe because Botha was willing to give more emotional and speculative testimony that Van Rensberg.

Would what Botha intended to say at the BH have been checked first by his superiors or the NPA?

Botha said once in an interview that he thought it was "a cut and dried" case.

 

[lisasalinger]

After seeing the crime scene photos these past two days, it has really solidified for me in my mind that it was virtually impossible for Reeva to have gotten out of bed and Oscar not know it. Here is why I feel strongly about this.

Look at these images of the bedroom and look how close the bed is to the balcony door. Regardless of who was sleeping on which side - it's right next to the door, maybe 2-3 feet away!

Oscar obviously had to see where he was going when he got up out of bed to get the fan off of the balcony. So he can see well enough then to make it out there, he can obviously see well enough to get back inside and place the fan on the floor. Which means he can see the bed right next to where he just put the fan down. Even if it's dim - he has sight.

Important point to remember - he can see at this point. The room does not become pitch black until he closes the door and curtain behind him.

This is a sliver of a window of time for Reeva to get up undetected.

I did a little test with a stop watch to see what may be a realistic timeframe for this to happen. My bedroom has a very similar set up to his - a bed right next to a balcony door. So I timed myself from a laying down position in bed, to getting up, walking to the balcony, went out to retrieve an item and walked back in, put item on floor. And I did it slowly, not rushing, to account for him being on stumps. It took me 19 seconds.

Now unless Oscar stopped to enjoy the view of the moon that night and forgot to write that in his affidavit, I have to assume he just went out and right back in.

Reeva obviously didn't get up at the same exact time as Oscar or he would have heard/felt/seen her. So she could only do it in the 10 seconds or less that he was on the balcony. My test trip took me 10 seconds to the door and 9 seconds to get the item and come back in. That leaves Reeva 9 seconds to get up and in the bathroom and opening a window, all completely undetected.

Do you understand that we are talking about seconds of time for all of this perfect storm to happen. It would have to be ridiculously precise.

I cannot buy this story. My brain just simply will not allow me to buy his story and I'm just waiting for Nel to put the pieces together and make everybody see.

 

[Schuby]

After seeing the crime scene photos these past two days, it has really solidified for me in my mind that it was virtually impossible for Reeva to have gotten out of bed and Oscar not know it. Here is why I feel strongly about this.

Look at these images of the bedroom and look how close the bed is to the balcony door. Regardless of who was sleeping on which side - it's right next to the door, maybe 2-3 feet away!

Oscar obviously had to see where he was going when he got up out of bed to get the fan off of the balcony. So he can see well enough then to make it out there, he can obviously see well enough to get back inside and place the fan on the floor. Which means he can see the bed right next to where he just put the fan down. Even if it's dim - he has sight.

Important point to remember - he can see at this point. The room does not become pitch black until he closes the door and curtain behind him.

This is a sliver of a window of time for Reeva to get up undetected.

I did a little test with a stop watch to see what may be a realistic timeframe for this to happen. My bedroom has a very similar set up to his - a bed right next to a balcony door. So I timed myself from a laying down position in bed, to getting up, walking to the balcony, went out to retrieve an item and walked back in, put item on floor. And I did it slowly, not rushing, to account for him being on stumps. It took me 19 seconds.

Now unless Oscar stopped to enjoy the view of the moon that night and forgot to write that in his affidavit, I have to assume he just went out and right back in.

Reeva obviously didn't get up at the same exact time as Oscar or he would have heard/felt/seen her. So she could only do it in the 10 seconds or less that he was on the balcony. My test trip took me 10 seconds to the door and 9 seconds to get the item and come back in. That leaves Reeva 9 seconds to get up and in the bathroom and opening a window, all completely undetected.

Do you understand that we are talking about seconds of time for all of this perfect storm to happen. It would have to be ridiculously precise.

I cannot buy this story. My brain just simply will not allow me to buy his story and I'm just waiting for Nel to put the pieces together and make everybody see.

Haven't you ever woken because you heard your partner get up in the middle of the night?

As far as the bed thing, you can't see what you aren't looking at. I've gotten up in the night to use the bathroom, gotten back in bed, reached for my boyfriend only to be startled that he wasn't there and then realize he hasn't come to bed yet.

 

[lisasalinger]

Haven't you ever woken because you heard your partner get up in the middle of the night?

As far as the bed thing, you can't see what you aren't looking at. I've gotten up in the night to use the bathroom, gotten back in bed, reached for my boyfriend only to be startled that he wasn't there and then realize he hasn't come to bed yet.

My point isn't that people don't get up in the middle of the night. They do.

I was trying to illustrate how this particular situation would have had to unfold and how utterly brief the time frame was.

This is different than your boyfriend not coming to bed yet for the night. OP claimed that Reeva was just in bed next to him when he got up. So I'm just calculating the mere seconds that this would have had to happen.

 

[FrancesB]

That is what I have been thinking too. Why did he have to tell anyone about the forensics guy handling the gun without gloves?

Was it leaked to the Defence?

I would have thought that Nel would have gone over everything to make sure that the police and forensics teams did not show themselves up to be idiots.

There seems to have been a lack of training about how to do this or that and they have just picked things up along the way.

Who was the man in charge of all this? Couldn't he have attended to any weaknesses that they were or Nel have coached them in what to say and how to behave? There seems to have been a lack of management and checking before presentation and nor "rehearsal". Maybe these detectives who have been in these positions for so long are still using outdated methods as that have not updated their skills. The just seem to do it their way and do not give the impression that there was good teamwork.

Why was Botha chosen to give evidence at the Bail Hearing if Van was superior to him? Surely what Botha was going to say should have been checked first.

They do not seem to have any strategy against Roux who uses every tactic in the book but they needed better preparation as the come over to be so unsophisticated.

Also why did the witnesses not keep a copy of their statements so that they could read it over again before the trial? And if they didn't, why didn't Nel send them a copy? How much access can Nel have with the witnesses? It seems unfair that the accused can have all this access to his Defence Team yet some of these witnesses seem to have made their statement a year ago and are expected to remember the fine details a year later.

Maybe I do not know the rules but adequate preparation is very important as well as how to deal with difficult questions.

Those are exactly the questions I am pondering! I spent 2 hours last night with a playback of Van Rensburg's testimony, attempting to screenshot and transcript it (but still having trouble with the translator). 2 hours spent for about 45 minutes worth of actual testimony! It'd take me about 10 hours just to do Van Rensburg. I'm working today, but I'll bloomin well do it over the weekend, because his testimony fascinated me.

I am suspicious of Botha's incompetence too, because he attended a previous assault charge in 2009 with a woman called Cassidy Taylor memmory, who Pistorius slammed the door on and she sustained injuries. Botha didn't charge him*. I've even heard that he may have family connections with Pistorius of some sort, that, though, is unsubstantiated. Botha was a gift to Pistorius at the bail hearing, and if Van Rensburg was first on scene, (and he may just have pipped Botha to the post), why didn't Van Rensburg do the bail hearing?

I spent a lot of last night defending Van Rensburg, on this board, because he came across at trial yesterday as a conscientious copper, regardless of a few discrepancies, and yet someone here made the blanket accusation that ALL the police were buffoons and I don't agree.

Like you I have wondered why Nel didn't check with them their statements and pose these very kinds of discrepancies before the trial started?

With regards to Van Rensburg mentioning the gloveless forensic man handling the gun:

1, It shows Van R is honest.
2 It shows that at least 1 copper in attendance had a clue of protecting the crime scene, and
3 He would look far worse if Roux had had the gun fingerprinted and found a forensic policeman's print, but that not one cop had mentioned this contamination. Because that would have been produced by Roux and the whole prosecution could then have been brought down at the attempted cover up of that mishap.

One rotten cop (or two rotten cops) can create havoc with their antics, but it isn't fair to paint all cops in that same light. I'm sure most of the cops there did follow crime protection measures and had no intention of stealing any of Pistorius's possesions).

*The Cassidy Taylor Memmory accusation that Pistorius punched a door which fell on her and injured her found Pistorius not charged, by attending Investigation Officer Botha. Her claim, and Pistorius's counter claim sprawled over a 4 year period only to reach settlement just before this trial. It has been reported that Pistorius has never apologised (but it is an example of him, violence against a woman, and another door). Pistorius dropped his counter claim against Taylor Memmory.

 

[Trooper]

'A quiet dinner...' says Oscar. WTH does that mean?? you only eat bananas?? no one speaks?? you eat with ear plugs in???

are there dishes in the dishwasher? left overs in the fridge??

maybe no one ate in that house that night.. maybe Reeva was so damn hungry she has to go DOWNSTAIRS to the kitchen.. how come Oscar doesn't hear this?. rat about trying to find some cheese and vegetables....probably salad stuff.. at around 1am.

fridge opening , closing, maybe a plate clatter, rinsing off the plate..

and then go back upstairs again.

no record of a food delivery that night. ..

too busy arguing, sniping, complaining, being n a bad mood..

No one goes to bed hungry on a gated estate...

and another thing.. what kind of noise does Oscars stumps make running on a tiled floor??

I'm curious.. a unique sound and rhythm that Reeva would recognize. . 'oy Oscar, I'm in the loo'..



I want more details.

 

[Trooper]

and she unlocks the bedroom door to go downstairs to eat something, and then locks it again on her return...

???? noiselessly??

 

[Trooper]

lets admit one thing... every police force has it's buffoons.. yours , mine and Oscars..

But , generally speaking.. some very very clever people do policing clear across the globe.

 

[salberg7]

I don't put too much into the "no present on Valentine's Day" theory. It wasn't Valentine's Day yet, per se; it was early in the morning of Valentine's Day. I don't give my husband his Valentine's Day present at breakfast, we usually wait til the afternoon or dinner. From what I 've read, RS decided to stay over OP' s home at the spur of the moment. IF they were arguing, I am inclined to think she didn't want to leave a gated community in the middle of the night & drive home alone. That would have been too dangerous for a woman to do especially since it appears there was a fair amount of risk of crime in the area. Even being married for 30 yrs, there has been a Valentine's Day or two when I was too busy to get my hubby a present until the day of Valentine's Day.

 

[Interested Bystander]

After seeing the crime scene photos these past two days, it has really solidified for me in my mind that it was virtually impossible for Reeva to have gotten out of bed and Oscar not know it. Here is why I feel strongly about this.

Look at these images of the bedroom and look how close the bed is to the balcony door. Regardless of who was sleeping on which side - it's right next to the door, maybe 2-3 feet away!

Oscar obviously had to see where he was going when he got up out of bed to get the fan off of the balcony. So he can see well enough then to make it out there, he can obviously see well enough to get back inside and place the fan on the floor. Which means he can see the bed right next to where he just put the fan down. Even if it's dim - he has sight.

Important point to remember - he can see at this point. The room does not become pitch black until he closes the door and curtain behind him.

This is a sliver of a window of time for Reeva to get up undetected.

I did a little test with a stop watch to see what may be a realistic timeframe for this to happen. My bedroom has a very similar set up to his - a bed right next to a balcony door. So I timed myself from a laying down position in bed, to getting up, walking to the balcony, went out to retrieve an item and walked back in, put item on floor. And I did it slowly, not rushing, to account for him being on stumps. It took me 19 seconds.

Now unless Oscar stopped to enjoy the view of the moon that night and forgot to write that in his affidavit, I have to assume he just went out and right back in.

Reeva obviously didn't get up at the same exact time as Oscar or he would have heard/felt/seen her. So she could only do it in the 10 seconds or less that he was on the balcony. My test trip took me 10 seconds to the door and 9 seconds to get the item and come back in. That leaves Reeva 9 seconds to get up and in the bathroom and opening a window, all completely undetected.

Do you understand that we are talking about seconds of time for all of this perfect storm to happen. It would have to be ridiculously precise.

I cannot buy this story. My brain just simply will not allow me to buy his story and I'm just waiting for Nel to put the pieces together and make everybody see.

He is asking the court to believe that he brought in both fans in total darkness and placed one of them to the left of the bed against the wall in a space that is only just big enough. No way. If he brought them in at all he would need enough light to manoeuvre round the bed to place the small fan in quite a small space. IMO if he takes the stand his testimony will be torn to shreds. I think Roux has to know he is guilty after the last ridiculous change to OP's testimony.

 

[FrancesB]

and she unlocks the bedroom door to go downstairs to eat something, and then locks it again on her return...

???? noiselessly??

I've always wondered why Pistorius posed his locked bedroom door as a problem for him, in his bail hearing affidavit?

He made it sound like that locked door prevented him from leaving the bedroom and therefore that he had to get his gun and go right into the face of his supposed intruder. It was more difficult for him to turn a key in the lock and leave the bedroom, than it was to walk around the corner into the bathroom? How did he know the supposed intruder wasn't standing by the sinks or in the toilet doorway, ready to shoot him dead the minute he walked into the bathroom?

He could walk into the arms of a dangerous intruder, but he couldn't unlock a door!

Nothing Pistorius says makes any sense whatsoever, it does, though, help him delay getting help for Ms Steenkamp.

 

[SapphireSteel]

The stumps/no stumps is important because if he had time to strap them on his story of being woken and startled by an intruder is incorrect.

Which it is anyway, blind Freddy can see what happened here.

Same old story - domestic violence. Add an arsenal to an arsehole and someone's going to end up hurt.

 

[zwiebel]

Just a clarification for anybody asking questions about the contents of both Oscar's and Reeva's cell phones (including whether or not he was watching *advertiser censored*)... that evidence has not been presented at trial yet. We have no idea what is on those phones.

Any reports about "nothing" being found are just speculation in the media at this point.

I thought OP's phone was accessed at Apple HQ, but he had an encryption app which they were unable to crack?

OP's blatant lack of co-operation re his phone records is something I am sure the judge can take into account. At least I hope she can. I think it's incriminating, myself.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I don't put too much into the "no present on Valentine's Day" theory. It wasn't Valentine's Day yet, per se; it was early in the morning of Valentine's Day. I don't give my husband his Valentine's Day present at breakfast, we usually wait til the afternoon or dinner. From what I 've read, RS decided to stay over OP' s home at the spur of the moment. IF they were arguing, I am inclined to think she didn't want to leave a gated community in the middle of the night & drive home alone. That would have been too dangerous for a woman to do especially since it appears there was a fair amount of risk of crime in the area. Even being married for 30 yrs, there has been a Valentine's Day or two when I was too busy to get my hubby a present until the day of Valentine's Day.

She was probably more frightened of him than anyone else that night.

My guess is, she was trying to get away.

 

[zwiebel]

I've always wondered why Pistorius posed his locked bedroom door as a problem for him, in his bail hearing affidavit?

He made it sound like that locked door prevented him from leaving the bedroom and therefore that he had to get his gun and go right into the face of his supposed intruder. It was more difficult for him to turn a key in the lock and leave the bedroom, than it was to walk around the corner into the bathroom? How did he know the supposed intruder wasn't standing by the sinks or in the toilet doorway, ready to shoot him dead the minute he walked into the bathroom?

He could walk into the arms of a dangerous intruder, but he couldn't unlock a door!

Nothing Pistorius says makes any sense whatsoever, it does, though, help him delay getting help for Ms Steenkamp.

You know, I think defence neglected to ask Sam T if OP usually locked the bedroom door when she stayed with him. That's a bit of an oversight, if so.

 

[Melanie]

I Have a feeling we haven't heard the last of that Smashed in metal bath panel yet, first set of bangs?.

I am very curious about that, too. I did not watch the trial today -- so I have some catching up to do. Why on earth was the metal panel bashed in? Why was his bedroom door damaged? Why was there blood in the bedroom (ie, on the watch case).

So many questions...

Mel

 

[FrancesB]

I thought OP's phone was accessed at Apple HQ, but he had an encryption app which they were unable to crack?

OP's blatant lack of co-operation re his phone records is something I am sure the judge can take into account. At least I hope she can. I think it's incriminating, myself.

I think Pistorius is guilty of shooting someone dead, I also believe he knew who he was shooting, and that they were arguing and she was so threatened that she fled to the toilet in fear. I am no Pistorius fan, I hope he gets maximum sentence for premeditated murder.

However, I had a cash card and used that card for years, knowing the pin. One day I went to use it, and I put the wrong pin in, 3 times. The machine then took my card. I was flummoxed that for the life of me I had forgotten a pin I had been using for years. I can't explain it at all. Now I write my pins down. It was actually quite scary how I couldn't recall that pin.

 

[SapphireSteel]

If there was a burglar, and this happened in Australia,he'd still be charged with murder.

Even if he had Bundy shut up in there, he could've sat and called police instead of going Rambo. There was a locked door and a gun between him and his "burglar" who conveniently had backed himself into a corner and locked the door.

No need for force no matter WHO was in there.

Bizarre defence - yes I shot the chit out of someone who posed no immediate threat but its OK because I thought they might even though they were using my toilet not holding me at gunpoint.

This is somehow an excuse? Not even in SA, surely.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I think Pistorius is guilty of shooting someone dead, I also believe he knew who he was shooting, and that they were arguing and she was so threatened that she fled to the toilet in fear. I am no Pistorius fan, I hope he gets maximum sentence for premeditated murder.

However, I had a cash card and used that card for years, knowing the pin. One day I went to use it, and I put the wrong pin in, 3 times. The machine then took my card. I was flummoxed that for the life of me I had forgotten a pin I had been using for years. I can't explain it at all. Now I write my pins down. It was actually quite scary how I couldn't recall that pin.

Ha its called "getting old".:scared:

 

[steveml]

"Why did he have to tell anyone about the forensics guy handling the gun without gloves?"

Because he knows that that "the cover up is worse than the crime". He has accepted responsibility for a law enforcement screw up. It was deliberately brought up by the Prosecution in order to "take the sting out of it". Better to bring it up and be able to fully explain it on direct exam than to have it first brought up on cross examination.

One of the biggest frustrations of being in a supervisory position has to be the mistakes made by underlings.

If I can just add to this a little, although this does show incompetence on the part of forensics guy regarding fingerprinting etc, luckily for the prosecution the accused isn't denying holding and shooting the gun, so the severity of this error is not as bad as it may have been. This would also influence the states reason to disclose.