trial thread: 3/15/2012

[Kittymama]

I am wondering if the water bottles that Rafferty had in his car were there just for that purpose. It sounds like it, imo.

I'm also curious about what he was doing while the Crown was showing the video evidence of TLM at the Home Depot, getting into his car, at the movies, etc. I'm surprised nobody reported on that.

 

[nursebeeme]

not to be silly or anything... but I am a nurse... and if someone were taking that much oxy or percocets you would need to drink a lake of water in order to **think mother nature**

:moo:

 

[matou]

She testified that:

* Rafferty often drove the couple through school areas in Woodstock, talking about snatching a young girl. "I just remember looking out the window a lot and always seeing schools."

* Rafferty stopped at two houses of single mothers he knew and explained how to get into the bedrooms to tie someone up and take someone.

* After Tori was pushed into his car, Rafferty "made a comment she wasn't young enough."

* On her nightmarish ride to the killing scene outside of Mount Forest, Tori promised not to tell anyone if they'd let her go. "She'd just tell her mom she went to her cousin's house to play," McClintic recalled.

* It was clear Rafferty was naked from the waist down when he raped Tori in the back seat of the car, "because his legs were hanging out the vehicle."

* Rafferty had clothes to change into after the killing and directed the disposal of old clothes. Rafferty said, " we should never speak of this again.' "

* The pair drove to Cambridge and cleaned the car, inside and out, at a car wash.

* On the way home to Woodstock, Rafferty directed her to cut out parts of the car's back seat where he saw some spots that weren't cleaned off. She used her hands to dig out the foam underneath.

* He bought her a bottle of blonde hair dye, which she didn't use.

* She helped a neighbour hand out the flyers saying Tori was missing.

* To her concerns about taking a polygraph test, Rafferty said: " That's OK, because you didn't do anything. You have nothing to hide.' I replied that's right.' "

* Rafferty gave McClintic sample questions and answers to be used if police came calling about the surveillance video that showed Tori walking away.

http://www.stratfordbeaconherald.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3502371

 

[dgfred]

AG, I have trouble believing just the statements of TLM alone as well (like a lot of trouble ). I trust that the Crown has much more to corroborate her story than just her story alone.

:moo:

My problem with her version is she goes so quickly from being friendly in a way to Tori... then hitting her with a hammer. No mention of getting the hammer, or having it ready, or planning to do something with it. I mean... she's holding her hand one second, then is in a rage big enough to hit her at least 3 times with a hammer??? They are both monsters.

 

[flipflop]

Thank you FF.

Not a question directed at you FF (but if you have the answer to this too, great!!) other than the picture of TLM on the bed at the motel, were there pictures or cctv footage of MTR entered in as evidence?

I think we will see more of MTR in regards to evidence in the upcoming chapters of this case.

MR really seemed to have watched his step, so far, if we take TLM's testimony as truthful

-MR had TLM do the dirty work as he stayed out of the limelight when abducting VS
-at home depot he asked TLM to go into make the purchases. Why wouldn't he go in, he was the supposed contractor who would have found the tool aisle much faster, if questioned later he could have stated the purchase was work related. But he sent TLM in and he once again stayed out of the limelight.
-he used the ATM thinking that cash for home depot would not leave a trail
-he would not go to TLM's house to drop off the hair dye

Was he careful with trying to watch HIS step and talked the easily manipulated TLM into doing these things. Did he murder VS, did she murder VS or did they both. Did she say that MR did it because he did or to place the blame on him as she did it. Did she change her story because she told him she would and she still loves him???? So many questions that I do not think we will get the answers.

Some upcoming chapters should be quite interesting...I wonder if BA will reveal anything worthwhile at the drug purchase. I wonder what the connection to the MF area is with MR. The cross with the current chapter will give us an idea of where they are heading.

This case so far has boiled down to he said/she said....I hope some strong evidence will prove otherwise.

 

[Sailor Bug]

To me it doesn't matter which one held the hammer or did the kicking. They are both guilty of abduction and murder. MR is most likely guilty of sex assault but for that they will need something more than the corroborating evidence such as the surveillance videos and the bank withdrawal.


TLM did not mention that MR used a condom so I am praying that there is some of his DNA somewhere with Tori's body and in the garbage bag.
If Tori went pee somewhere I am praying that somehow there is MR's dna in that path of grass. But that is wishful thinking on my part.

If he wasn't planning on killing her what was he going to do with her?

My opinion is that the Crown is doing a great job of backing up TLM's testimony with the photos of the clothes, hair dye, photos of clothing, Home Depot video etc. I am surprised we haven't seen the bank machine withdrawal video yet but that along with bank records will corroborate TLM's testimony.

bbm

Testing on Rafferty's car revealed blood on one of the doors matched Tori's DNA with near certainty, and blood on a gym bag was found to have a mixture of DNA profiles, of which Tori and Rafferty cannot be excluded, Gowdey said.

http://www.metronews.ca/toronto/can...-of-tori-stafford-laid-bare-for-jury?rand=967


Police seized his vehicle and found evidence of Tori's blood on the rear passenger door moulding. Blood found on a Goodlife fitness bag inside the car was a mixture of Tori and Rafferty's blood.

"Listen carefully to the DNA evidence. It will tell you a lot," Gowdey said.

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/03/05/tori-stafford-murder-trial-gets-underway? court hears

 

[Hello_Kitty]

She testified that:

* Rafferty stopped at two houses of single mothers he knew and explained how to get into the bedrooms to tie someone up and take someone.

http://www.stratfordbeaconherald.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3502371

Snipped and BBM:

Does this mean he personally knew the single mothers that lived there , or that he knew single mothers lived there?

 

[flipflop]

Snipped and BBM:

Does this mean he personally knew the single mothers that lived there , or that he knew single mothers lived there?

it was stated somewhere that TLM pointed out one of the houses to LE, I hope the single mother can shed something helpful towards this case.

 

[Sailor Bug]

To me it doesn't matter which one held the hammer or did the kicking. They are both guilty of abduction and murder. MR is most likely guilty of sex assault but for that they will need something more than the corroborating evidence such as the surveillance videos and the bank withdrawal.


TLM did not mention that MR used a condom so I am praying that there is some of his DNA somewhere with Tori's body and in the garbage bag.
If Tori went pee somewhere I am praying that somehow there is MR's dna in that path of grass. But that is wishful thinking on my part.

If he wasn't planning on killing her what was he going to do with her?

My opinion is that the Crown is doing a great job of backing up TLM's testimony with the photos of the clothes, hair dye, photos of clothing, Home Depot video etc. I am surprised we haven't seen the bank machine withdrawal video yet but that along with bank records will corroborate TLM's testimony.

bbm


Chapter 3: Guelph: Video surveillance and bank records detailing the events there
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/03/05/tori-stafford-murder-trial-gets-underway? court hears

 

[matou]

Transcription of this journal entry. If there are mistakes, please let me know.

Scenario 1-Mike not spotted

1.Q: Was that in fact you in the surveillance video?
A: Yes, it was.

2. Q: Do you often travel through the area?
A: I wouldn't call it a daily routine, however I do cross the area frequently.

3. Q: Is there a reason why you were in that area?
A: Yes, I take walks alone or I walk my dog there, I also have an aunt in the area.

4. Q: Do you know Victoria Stafford?
A: I don't know her, however had an encounter with her a few days earlier while I was walking my dog.

Q: What happened durring (sp) this encounter?
A: SHe wanted to pet my dog, which I had no problem with. That was the duration of the encounter. 3-5 min. I then continued on my way.

Q: The day the video was captured why were you walking with Victoria?
A: I had gone to see my aunt however got no answer. I then headed home, passing Oliver Stephens, were I saw the young lady, being polite, I said hi, as did she, as well as asking me were (sp.) Precious (my dog) was. I explained that I didn't bring her. This conversation continued as we walked and crossed the street.

 

[captaincanada]

My problem with her version is she goes so quickly from being friendly in a way to Tori... then hitting her with a hammer. No mention of getting the hammer, or having it ready, or planning to do something with it. I mean... she's holding her hand one second, then is in a rage big enough to hit her at least 3 times with a hammer??? They are both monsters.

I know, it's completely bizarre. There are a few ways to look at this:

(1) She's trying somehow to appear to everyone that she isn't the complete monster that she really is (her comments to Tori about not letting anything happen to her and her being friendly to her)

(2) She is completely psychotic and possibly schizoprenic or has multiple personalities and really did snap into a rage.

(3) She was so drugged up she doesn't remember anything other than what MTR told her. (perhaps MTR did the killing but convinced a drugged up TLM that she really did it).


I personally think she's only telling some of the truth. She feels remorse so she has thrown in scripted things to try to make others feel that she was nice to Tori at some moments, which is bizarre considering the completely contradicting actions of her.

I don't think we'll ever find out the complete truth but I feel for certain that MR can't get out of this one. Even though it appears he's done everything to try to point to TLM (her abducting, her buying the hammer etc.) he's too heavily involved by matter of fact. He's got his blood on the gym bag mixed with Tori's and he was driving the car. There is no "out" for him.

 

[captaincanada]

What really bothers me is how nonchalant they were with Tori in the back of the car. I mean, stopping at Tim Hortons and Home Depot with an eight yr old kidnapped child in the back seat? It breaks my heart to think of Tori in the car in these parking lots and all it would take is her to start screaming at the first person who walked by the car. Way too risky of MR and TLM if you ask me.

 

[puppyraiser]

Maybe I missed something along the way, but I don't recall hearing/reading either one had taken a change of clothes and yet TLM says they both changed their clothing/footwear on the way back to Woodstock. IF TLM was wearing some of MR's clothes and shoes and he changed as well then it might stand to reason that he was prepared for something happening that might warrant extra clothing, perhaps? IMO

 

[matou]

Transcription.

Q: How long did you walk with Victoria?
A: We parted ways at the corner of the Caressant Care Retirement Home on Fyfe, were (sp) I turned right and she continued on.

Q: What happened next?
A: I ran into a friend of mine, who knows that is one of the main routes I take that time in the afternoon. If I'm not home, then I'm usually walking.

Q: When you saw your friend what did you do?
A: I got in the car and we went to Guelph so he could visit his friend briefly. As well as stopped at Tim Hortons

Q: Where did you go from there?
A: From there we went to Hamilton were (sp) he pointed out the studio Fred Astair or something. We drove around, a bit before heading to Oakville, where Mike showed me another studio which he could have been involved in. We parked the car and checked out the shops on lakeshore, just window shopping cause we had no money from there we came back to Woodstock, and Mike dropped me off at hoe because by this time it was late and that was it.

 

[Salem]

I can't believe she would take the fall for a child adbuctor, molester, rapist and murderer. SHe would be fine with him "out there" and available to continue his behaviour on other possible victims. That just disgusts me in additition to everything else. He shows her homes of single moms he knows to suggest tying them up and he "has a life?" WTH???? JMO

I can see her taking the fall - she participated so she probably doesn't see him as all those things, kwim? She sees him as some wonderful guy that gave her "a bit of love." If she were to see him as others do, she would have to see herself that way and it is obvious from her testimony that she cannot or will not accept her true part in what happened. She makes excuses for herself so she can feel like she "helped" the police and was kind to Tori - what a bunch of *!*?.

And the part about the "single moms"? That's horrifying. I note with interest that it wasn't about "single women" but single MOMS. So what was he thinking? The conversation, allegedly, was about taking the mom, but why a mom? Why not just a woman? I won't type what I think, but I find it telling that he was interested in "moms" and not just "women."

Salem

 

[Salem]

AG, I have trouble believing just the statements of TLM alone as well (like a lot of trouble ). I trust that the Crown has much more to corroborate her story than just her story alone.

:moo:

Just a note - eye witness testimony is DIRECT testimony. NOT circumstantial testimony. It is up to the jury or the finder of fact to determine for themselves how much to believe or disbelieve the witness, but the testimony is considered evidence.

I'm not yelling up there in caps, just trying to clarify that whether we believe TLM or not, her testimony is solid evidence that the jury will weigh when they deliberate.

Salem

 

[matou]

Transcription

Q: So you were unaware that Victoria had been been reported missing?
A: Yes, until the next morning, I saw helicopters overhead and saw alot of police, while taking my dogs out. My neighbour then filled me in on the situation.

 

[matou]

Transcription

Mike:

So your probably wondering why I wrote you a letter when I could just talk to you, well that's pretty much it. I can't seem to verbalize what I want to say, so here we are...first of all, I want you to know that I do care about you, alot, and that's difficult for me, I've struggled with emotions for a while, but let me expand on that statement a little bit, because it can be interpretted different ways. What I mean when I say that is that I basically taught myself not to feel certain things as I was growing up. Mainly to survive. I basically went through life being pissed of (?) all the time but on January 14 2009 I finally broke, I cried for the first time in 9 years. At the time I didn't really know what to take from it, not until a few months down the road did I realize that was my breakthrough point. that I would soon be experiencing a tidal wave of different emotions.

 

[Hello_Kitty]

Maybe I missed something along the way, but I don't recall hearing/reading either one had taken a change of clothes and yet TLM says they both changed their clothing/footwear on the way back to Woodstock. IF TLM was wearing some of MR's clothes and shoes and he changed as well then it might stand to reason that he was prepared for something happening that might warrant extra clothing, perhaps? IMO

Not necessarily. He was a gym member, so it would be logical (IMO) to have extra pairs of this and that. In my car, I always carry boots, extra shoes, extra pants, etc and some blankets.

 

[flipflop]

I can see her taking the fall - she participated so she probably doesn't see him as all those things, kwim? She sees him as some wonderful guy that gave her "a bit of love." If she were to see him as others do, she would have to see herself that way and it is obvious from her testimony that she cannot or will not accept her true part in what happened. She makes excuses for herself so she can feel like she "helped" the police and was kind to Tori - what a bunch of *!*?.

And the part about the "single moms"? That's horrifying. I note with interest that it wasn't about "single women" but single MOMS. So what was he thinking? The conversation, allegedly, was about taking the mom, but why a mom? Why not just a woman? I won't type what I think, but I find it telling that he was interested in "moms" and not just "women."

Salem

I agree with you in regards to your 1st paragraph...JMO she was head over heals for this guy, he was showing her love and attention. She obviously saw him as a successful man with a job, a car, a life...she probably has not had someone like this in her life, meeting him must have felt like winning the jackpot!!! So yes I can see her too taking the fall for him.

As for your single mom comment....after hearing about this info from TLM's testimony, I was not thinking of the mom being kidnapped, but her child. I wonder how "young" her children are or were at the time.