TX TX - Unidentified victims of Dean Corll, Houston Serial Killer, 1970-1973

[cenazoic]

Funny how Brooks and Henley developed a conscious once it got personal

I’d say it could be argued that Ramsland’s book is more about how grooming, trauma, etc can affect the developing adolescent brain, using Henley (and to a lesser extent, Brooks) and the Corll cases as a framework for understanding her points. But I didn’t get the sense that she thinks that makes Henley less accountable for his actions (nor does Henley come across that way, IMO).

John Norman's call boy operation is often blown out of all proportion - this was basically clandestine backdoor stuff but still well-protected by influential men who were using his services. Rumor has it that there is at least one snuff movie

This is the part of Ramsland’s book I found most dissatisfying. She brings up Norman in relation to Corll telling Brooks/Henley that he had ‘associates’ in Dallas doing similar things. She talks about the ‘Network’ for a few pages, possibly to establish that maybe Corll did in fact have these connections to a wider ring, but then drops it.

I’d like to see a book discussing Norman and his associates in relation to Corll, OCCK, and Gacy with thoughtful discussion (I understand actual evidence may be hard to come by).

 

[cenazoic]

PROBABLY NOT RELATED

It’s hard not to try to find links to Corll for murdered UIDs in Houston during this timeframe!

To our knowledge, Corll never killed a girl, although presumably he was about to (Rhonda Louise Williams) when Henley killed him.

In addition, both Henley and Brooks said that they believed Corll also killed without them present. So the possibility exists that there are female UIDs killed by Corll, although I acknowledge that the probability is small, given his known predilections and victim profiles.

 

[Suzanne Mirzoyan]

Also, I think there's pretty good chance Mark was originally one of Norman's boys. Most definitely was on that list of corresponding victims and what police found at Norman's warehouse.

Do you think Mark was also Corll and John Norman's accomplice boy?

 

[TheHauntedOne]

Do you think Mark was also Corll and John Norman's accomplice boy?

If not, I have a suspicion that he was at least one of the boys in the photos found in the warehouse.

 

[Suzanne Mirzoyan]

Եթե ոչ, ես կասկած ունեմ, որ նա գոնե պահեստում հայտնաբերված լուսանկարների տղաներից մեկն էր։

Այո, ես ինչ-որ տեղ կարդացի, որ Նորմանի պահեստում հայտնաբերված նկարների թվում կան նաև Կորլի 11 զոհերի լուսանկարները։ Կարծում եմ նաև, որ Մարկը նկարներից առնվազն մեկ-երկուսի մեջ էր: Ես էլ կարդացի, որ մեկ-երկու անգամ նրան ձերբակալել են։ Կարծում եմ, որ եթե նա իրոք հանցակից էր, ապա նրա ձերբակալությունը/ձերբակալությունները ինչ-որ կապ ունեն Քորլի հետ: (Կներեք իմ անգլերենի համար, եթե շատ վատ է)

 

[Suzanne Mirzoyan]

If not, I have a suspicion that he was at least one of the boys in the photos found in the warehouse.

Yes, I read somewhere that among the pictures found in Norman's warehouse were also photographs of 11 of Corll's victims. I also think Mark was in at least one or two of the pictures. I also read that he was arrested once or twice. I believe that if he was indeed an accomplice, his arrest/arrests had something to do with Corll. (Sorry for my english if it very bad)

 

[boondocksaint]

Yes, I read somewhere that among the pictures found in Norman's warehouse were also photographs of 11 of Corll's victims. I also think Mark was in at least one or two of the pictures. I also read that he was arrested once or twice. I believe that if he was indeed an accomplice, his arrest/arrests had something to do with Corll. (Sorry for my english if it very bad)

These photos could have been taken by anyone (the file on the Waldrop brothers mentions Roy Ames, not Corll, or rather, their father does) and in Corll's belongings they only found beach snapshots of youths connected to Corll, nothing of a suggestive nature.

The seedy Houston underground may have been well-connected and Corll certainly was a go-between but i'm rather with the police reports here (a guy like Norman was interested in living, not dead boys), there seems to have been more smoke than fire with the Norman connection. Corll certainly knew these guys (Ames anyway), but nothing in his MO would have been a mutual benefit, at least to the degrees it is often speculated.

 

[Suzanne Mirzoyan]

These photos could have been taken by anyone (the file on the Waldrop brothers mentions Roy Ames, not Corll, or rather, their father does) and in Corll's belongings they only found beach snapshots of youths connected to Corll, nothing of a suggestive nature.

The seedy Houston underground may have been well-connected and Corll certainly was a go-between but i'm rather with the police reports here (a guy like Norman was interested in living, not dead boys), there seems to have been more smoke than fire with the Norman connection. Corll certainly knew these guys (Ames anyway), but nothing in his MO would have been a mutual benefit, at least to the degrees it is often speculated.

I didn't know about that, thank you for telling me the information you know. Can you tell me a few more things? I have just started researching this case, and any hypothesis and facts are interesting to me. There are theories and facts that Riddinger and Scott were accomplices, or did Dean have other accomplices? If you could tell me some things I would really appreciate it. But even if you can't, I still thank you for giving me your time. (and again I apologize for my English)

 

[boondocksaint]

I didn't know about that, thank you for telling me the information you know. Can you tell me a few more things? I have just started researching this case, and any hypothesis and facts are interesting to me. There are theories and facts that Riddinger and Scott were accomplices, or did Dean have other accomplices? If you could tell me some things I would really appreciate it. But even if you can't, I still thank you for giving me your time. (and again I apologize for my English)

Like i said, 'accomplice' is a vague term, and it is not likely all were involved to the Brooks/Henley degree (or we would know about it). There are rumors floating around on Reddit that Corll victim James Glass tried to lure Danny Yates to Corll (as per Yates's brother, who claims to have been present at an earlier try before) and that Glass didn't die on the same date as Yates, but later (he was supposed to have family trouble, living secretly on a property Corll rented and the Yates brother claims to have seen him alive in 1971).

This would confirm Corll's methodical way of killing accomplices one by one (a fact that apparently took some time to dawn on either Brooks or Henley). But it's also possible that it's just BS. Both Baulch brothers were also known to be Corll acquaintances, so that's a lot of guys Corll knew whom he raped/killed later - which makes it almost a separate set of killings, those of random hitchhikers and those of boys at least tangentially known to DC.

With that in mind i find all the country-spanning human trafficking theories a bit wild, since local Houston boys still living with their families just aren't likely candidates for that or these kind of activities (Norman's operation apparently included a three-week 'training' program). Also we should keep in mind Corll was a full-time worker, limiting his (deadly) activities (thank god). But by all accounts he was trolling Houston much earlier than 1970, so that remains the most mysterious aspect of this case.

 

[cenazoic]

'accomplice' is a vague term, and it is not likely all were involved to the Brooks/Henley degree (or we would know about it).

The nit I would pick with this is that almost (or maybe absolutely) everything we know about Corll as a killer comes from Brooks and Henley (and mostly Henley).

Even putting aside issues of how truthful either were, there’s things they just didn’t know. Brooks likely knew more than Henley but revealed less.

Ridinger has been suggested as a previous accomplice predating Brooks (Ramsland also mentions this in her new book), and possibly he knows stuff, but he has absolutely zero incentive to say anything.

It seems (?) fairly well-established that Norman did have a ‘country-spanning trafficking ring’, but agreed that Corll’s connection to it is speculative.

The most frustrating part of the Corll story is all of the likely forever-mysteries, since he was killed before LE could ask him anything.

 

[boondocksaint]

The nit I would pick with this is that almost (or maybe absolutely) everything we know about Corll as a killer comes from Brooks and Henley (and mostly Henley).

Even putting aside issues of how truthful either were, there’s things they just didn’t know. Brooks likely knew more than Henley but revealed less.

Oh, we do know a lot more (including tons of dates and information which corrobates both statements, taken individually). We can label this 'pure conjecture', but people put so much faith in a Corll statement as ultimate harbinger of the truth, even if we know that sociopaths like him are the perfect liars.

Comparing DC with other serial killers, it quickly becomes apparent how similar their m. o. was, Bundy, Ridgway, Gacy, all spent considerable time in their various cars, trolling their hunting grounds - and there were enough witnesses connecting Corll to such activities.

The way he utilized teenagers for his actions like a Mafia don his capos is an anomaly, for sure, but i don't think these guys would have added much to the picture than variations of the Brooks/Henley statements. Probably we would have more knowledge of victims prior to 1970 (rumored to be at least 17 before Henley, with that envelope with pictures sent to ME Sharon Derrick specifically pointing out that boy as 'victim 11').

Though with all that in mind we could also ask why Houston LE never extended their missing persons lists beyond the 1970-1973 timespan (42 fitting the profile). If all the conjecture and above-cited numbers are true, the 1966-1969 list of missing teenagers could provide some insight. It was never looked into, afaik.

 

[TheHauntedOne]

These photos could have been taken by anyone (the file on the Waldrop brothers mentions Roy Ames, not Corll, or rather, their father does) and in Corll's belongings they only found beach snapshots of youths connected to Corll, nothing of a suggestive nature.

The seedy Houston underground may have been well-connected and Corll certainly was a go-between but i'm rather with the police reports here (a guy like Norman was interested in living, not dead boys), there seems to have been more smoke than fire with the Norman connection. Corll certainly knew these guys (Ames anyway), but nothing in his MO would have been a mutual benefit, at least to the degrees it is often speculated.

I'm not sure, there are clues that lead to more nefarious connections. Especially if you consider Corll was an amateur photographer, had loose connections to some of the local gay magazines and media, and may have taken care of some of the boys for Norman, considering they found several of those cards with KILL written across them. It's not open and shut, but easy to make the connections.

 

[Suzanne Mirzoyan]

Like i said, 'accomplice' is a vague term, and it is not likely all were involved to the Brooks/Henley degree (or we would know about it). There are rumors floating around on Reddit that Corll victim James Glass tried to lure Danny Yates to Corll (as per Yates's brother, who claims to have been present at an earlier try before) and that Glass didn't die on the same date as Yates, but later (he was supposed to have family trouble, living secretly on a property Corll rented and the Yates brother claims to have seen him alive in 1971).

This would confirm Corll's methodical way of killing accomplices one by one (a fact that apparently took some time to dawn on either Brooks or Henley). But it's also possible that it's just BS. Both Baulch brothers were also known to be Corll acquaintances, so that's a lot of guys Corll knew whom he raped/killed later - which makes it almost a separate set of killings, those of random hitchhikers and those of boys at least tangentially known to DC.

With that in mind i find all the country-spanning human trafficking theories a bit wild, since local Houston boys still living with their families just aren't likely candidates for that or these kind of activities (Norman's operation apparently included a three-week 'training' program). Also we should keep in mind Corll was a full-time worker, limiting his (deadly) activities (thank god). But by all accounts he was trolling Houston much earlier than 1970, so that remains the most mysterious aspect of this case.

Thank you

 

[Suzanne Mirzoyan]

Are there photos that not only have been seen by the police and people connected with the case, but it is also known to many people? If they are, can you send some pictures? I will be very grateful.

I'm not sure, there are clues that lead to more nefarious connections. Especially if you consider Corll was an amateur photographer, had loose connections to some of the local gay magazines and media, and may have taken care of some of the boys for Norman, considering they found several of those cards with KILL written across them. It's not open and shut, but easy to make the connections.

 

[boondocksaint]

I'm not sure, there are clues that lead to more nefarious connections. Especially if you consider Corll was an amateur photographer, had loose connections to some of the local gay magazines and media, and may have taken care of some of the boys for Norman, considering they found several of those cards with KILL written across them. It's not open and shut, but easy to make the connections.

I still have trouble seeing a guy like Norman literally writing KILL in Comic book letters on files of potential victims…it just seems a bit stupid. Maybe it really was just a publishing term for delete file.

 

[Ontheriver]

About Ramsland's new book:
It describes in great detail the circumstances surrounding the rape of Billy Ridinger, which were voiced at one of the court hearings.
I will give some excerpts from it for possible discussion, because the way it happened in many details does not correspond in general to the way the typical crime of this trio is presented. Highlights in the text are made by me. The most important thing in the passage seems to be that they had an equipped hook on the ceiling. This information, at least to me, has never been encountered.

---

from chapter 6 "Trials and Troubles".

I have not read this book. Does it say specifically where this statement from Billy came from? I know Billy was called to testify before a grand jury. But, grand jury testimony is normally sealed for life. I know the case files I have from the HPD and PPD do not include any statement regarding his attack.

 

[boondocksaint]

I have not read this book. Does it say specifically where this statement from Billy came from? I know Billy was called to testify before a grand jury. But, grand jury testimony is normally sealed for life. I know the case files I have from the HPD and PPD do not include any statement regarding his attack.

FYI, the complete statement (to HPD, not the court stuff) is available in Barbara Gibson's Houston Mass Murders – 1973: A True Crime Narrative.

Ridinger signed his second statement (the first one was BEFORE the Brooks confession) after midnight on August 11, 1973, and provided a list of boys he'd seen at Corll's multiple homes, including Mark Scott, and two brothers named Haney.

 

[Marysel]

I have not read this book. Does it say specifically where this statement from Billy came from? I know Billy was called to testify before a grand jury. But, grand jury testimony is normally sealed for life. I know the case files I have from the HPD and PPD do not include any statement regarding his attack.

Ramsland gives his second statement to the police.
The grand jury records are still classified.

 

[Ontheriver]

FYI, the complete statement (to HPD, not the court stuff) is available in Barbara Gibson's Houston Mass Murders – 1973: A True Crime Narrative.

Ridinger signed his second statement (the first one was BEFORE the Brooks confession) after midnight on August 11, 1973, and provided a list of boys he'd seen at Corll's multiple homes, including Mark Scott, and two brothers named Haney.

Thanks. What interests me about this is how she got a hold of this statement since it wasn't part of the case files I got from the Pasadena & Houston PDs. But, I know she has a few connections in law enforcement circles. Does she talk about the remains of Mark Scott? I conversed with Barbara on FB some years ago while she was working on this and got the impression she believed the remains of Mark actually had been recovered (but misidentified).
I think Haney is a reference to Ruben Watson. Tommy Watson was Ruben's biological dad but CE Haney was Ruben's stepdad. I know Wayne referred to Ruben as Haney but I don't think Ruben ever changed his last name from Watson. Ruben did have a half-brother named Tommy Haney who died of a drug overdose in 1972 just nine days before his 22nd birthday. It's possible Tommy knew Dean and visited him.