UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #7

[Nikynoo]

I believe burial and cremation and ceremony are natural human ways to cope with grieving and death. There are other ways too. I just don't think shoving the body in a bag and covering it up, calling it "evidence" and then refusing to reveal its whereabouts in case it incriminates you are the actions of an innocent parent in mourning.

Seems strange to me to ignore that it's relevant and pretend that it's a natural thing to do.

When you find your baby dying or dead, you call an ambulance.

They failed to seek medical attention when they found her not breathing. They left her in her own poo, stuck her in a bag and then covered her in trash. What does it matter if they did it after an hour or four days? She died on their watch. And then they treated her like garbage.

Who that you *deeply love* would you do that to?

I think you missed my point. Never mind.

 

[Lolabear]

I’m not so sure. There is a lot that has not been reported.

I do hope so...I personally think they should get a good 10 years each

 

[Cardgame]

i searched Twtr in the hope of finding even a small obscure journalist live tweeting.
I found nothing.

I want to know how she was in court.
Was she likeable or nasty?
What did the jurors see when they observed her?

There was quite a lot of coverage of her giving evidence. She certainly didn't seem like much of a charmer, IMO.

The podcasts are def the best way to catch up on the details of this, think the newspaper coverage was a bit hit and miss.

 

[Cardgame]

I think you missed my point. Never mind.

Maybe. I'll read your post again.

 

[kittythehare]

I believe burial and cremation and ceremony are natural human ways to cope with grieving and death. There are other ways too. I just don't think shoving the body in a bag and covering it up, calling it "evidence" and then refusing to reveal its whereabouts in case it incriminates you are the actions of an innocent parent in mourning.

Seems strange to me to ignore that it's relevant and pretend that it's a natural thing to do.

When you find your baby dying or dead, you call an ambulance.

They failed to seek medical attention when they found her not breathing. They left her in her own poo, stuck her in a bag and then covered her in trash. What does it matter if they did it after an hour or four days? She died on their watch. And then they treated her like garbage.

Who that you *deeply love* would you do that to?

No point in seeking medical attention for a dead patient.

This is the actual trial.
We're discussing how relevant it is as a piece of evidence and it's not relevant at all without supporting evidence.

I don't know what their plans were, how much money they had left, whether they were planning on buying a little cottage and burying her in the garden there..

I don't know because the court has not brought forth that information.

Maybe they had no plans at all..

 

[Nikynoo]

I do hope so...I personally think they should get a good 10 years each

I don’t think it will be that much unfortunately (based on sentencing for similar crimes).

 

[Maryanna]

Inappropriate litotes from Tom Little:

"Referring to Ms Marten's evidence, he said: 'Jesus was born in a barn, yes, but Bethlehem is hardly a skiing destination.' "

Constance Marten told 'big fat lies' over baby's death, court hears

Prosecutor Tom Little KC says Constance Marten, 36, has lied to the jury about what happened.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Cardgame]

But then, do you not think, that any disposal of a dead child is flawed? What if they had cremated her? What about burial in a grave? Would V have been found? If cremation or burial, they probably would have been charged with murder. If they had said that they had held a service of some kind in conjunction with a burial/creamation, would it have made a difference? I guess it wouldn't, so I don't see why there is this hang up about being placed in a bag post death.

It seems to me, that the only way these two could have redeemed themselves is if they either handed themselves straight away (as soon as they became aware of the alert) or attempted to get help when discovering V had died. If the latter, a cause of death MAY have been established, but it MAY have NOT.

MOO - if there has been a discrete alert, V may have been saved. if, CM was not a 'trust fund kid' there would not be this much attention to the case. So many if's......

Yes, apologies, I conflated your post and the one before.

For me, I think the bag is the cherry on the cake, as it were.

The fact that they didn't report it makes them look extremely guilty IMO.

You're right, burial or cremation could have looked even more guilty, which is exactly what CM expressed. Which is another reason why IMO she is likely guilty of worse than neglect.

But that's very much JMO and MOO and probably based on an emotional horror at the idea that anyone could treat a baby this way. Of course we know lots of people do. What is so unusual about this case is the number of people defending her, which I feel like is potentially because she is white, privileged and beautiful. It creates cognitive dissonance as to the idea that she could be a perpetrator.

I started this trial expecting, prob through my own unconscious bias,.expecting to discover that she had been a victim.

But after following it closely, I perceive the opposite. The baby is the victim here. The two defendants were making choices, those choices led in an escalating path, directly to their otherwise healthy baby's death. JMO. I'd be surprised if the jury finds it complicated, but I could be wrong!

I perceive it as the opposite to those who think she wouldn't be prosecuted if she wasn't a one percenter. I think she would. It prob just wouldn't have been on the front page of the daily mail so far fewer people would care. Again , JMO.

eDited for typos. Apologies I'm on a phone.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

I believe her mother hired PIs in 2016 and her father in 2017 and again in 2021.

I guess I can understand the paranoia especially with the father making the wardship application in respect of the children, but I do truly believe that these two have MH issues. I don’t think we will ever hear the full story around the years 2017-2022.

In respect to the cars, I suspect that they were a series of older cheaper cars that were not maintained and therefore went kaput relatively quickly.

Is there a possibility that MG or both of them manipulates cars? Cars are one way CM gets a lump of cash from trust ???

 

[BreadnLumpit]

But then, do you not think, that any disposal of a dead child is flawed? What if they had cremated her? What about burial in a grave? Would V have been found? If cremation or burial, they probably would have been charged with murder. If they had said that they had held a service of some kind in conjunction with a burial/creamation, would it have made a difference? I guess it wouldn't, so I don't see why there is this hang up about being placed in a bag post e saying that placing your dead child in a supermarket bag and carrying their decomposing remains around with you is no less flawed than any socially accepted form of disposal.

By this reasoning all cremations and burials are pointless and flawed.

This does not seem like a hill to die on (pun intended).

 

[Baby baby Jane]

Yes, apologies, I conflated your post and the one before.

For me, I think the bag is the cherry on the cake, as it were.

The fact that they didn't report it makes them look extremely guilty IMO.

You're right, burial or cremation could have looked even more guilty, which is exactly what CM expressed. Which is another reason why IMO she is likely guilty of worse than neglect.

But that's very much JMO and MOO and probably based on an emotional horror at the idea that anyone could treat a baby this way. Of course we know lots of people do. What is so unusual about this case is the number of people defending her, which I feel like is potentially because she is white, privileged and beautiful. It creates cognitive dissonance as to the idea that she could be a perpetrator.

I started this trial expecting, prob through my own unconscious bias,.expecting to discover that she had been a victim.

But after following it closely, I perceive the opposite. The baby is the victim here. The two defendants were making choices, those choices led in an escalating path, directly to their otherwise healthy baby's death. JMO. I'd be surprised if the jury finds it complicated, but I could be wrong!

I perceive it as the opposite to those who think she wouldn't be prosecuted if she wasn't a one percenter. I think she would. It prob just wouldn't have been on the front page of the daily mail so far fewer people would care. Again , JMO.

eDited for typos. Apologies I'm on a phone.

IMO -
“cremation” in January, at the allotments or anywhere in that area would have attracted attention and people looking to put the fire out.

A burial - would have attracted dogs, badgers, foxes and result in possible discovery. (Not to mention predation upsetting thought)

Concealment IMO first & foremost for these 2.

They held onto that bag with Victoria because they could control the bag.

They could not control reaction to a fire, or animals digging up a grave.

 

[Nikynoo]

Inappropriate litotes from Tom Little:

"Referring to Ms Marten's evidence, he said: 'Jesus was born in a barn, yes, but Bethlehem is hardly a skiing destination.' "

Constance Marten told 'big fat lies' over baby's death, court hears

Prosecutor Tom Little KC says Constance Marten, 36, has lied to the jury about what happened.

www.bbc.co.uk

And Brighton is?

 

[Nikynoo]

@BreadnLumpit replying to your post on my post (looks like the link is broken).

It may be their way of dealing with the death of their child. Fortunately, I haven’t been in that position. What my post was trying to say was, would reactions have been the same if V had been cremated or buried by her parents vis a vis being placed in a bag?

Death is personal to each of us and we all react differently to it. I dare say my reaction would be different depending on who in my family unit had died. I’m very much in the ‘when you’re dead, you’re dead’ club. I do believe that the body is just a shell (based on seeing both my parents minutes post death ) and the essence of what we are to others, dissipates, but would that apply if that was my child? I do not know.

 

[DianaWW]

Inappropriate litotes from Tom Little:

"Referring to Ms Marten's evidence, he said: 'Jesus was born in a barn, yes, but Bethlehem is hardly a skiing destination.' "

Constance Marten told 'big fat lies' over baby's death, court hears

Prosecutor Tom Little KC says Constance Marten, 36, has lied to the jury about what happened.

www.bbc.co.uk

But it’s appropriate for Constance to comment that ‘Jesus was born in a barn’ as part of her defence? As though that compares in any way to raising a baby in a flimsy tent in Britain, in the middle of winter.

 

[OrangeCash]

I think describing it as cremation is generous honestly, if you think how they'd have poured petrol on her/the body and set it alight, I'm assuming in a field somewhere maybe? I understand that's what cremation is, burning a body, but it seems like it was considered an option in order to cover up Victoria's existence rather than as a way of a final goodbye sort of thing. MOO

"I don't know if you found, there's a bottle of petroleum in the bag, erm, because I debated whether to cremate her myself, get rid of the evidence, but I decided to keep her because I knew at some point in the future I was going to be asked about it, but I just didn't know what to do." - CM

 

[BreadnLumpit]

@BreadnLumpit replying to your post on my post (looks like the link is broken).

It may be their way of dealing with the death of their child. Fortunately, I haven’t been in that position. What my post was trying to say was, would reactions have been the same if V had been cremated or buried by her parents vis a vis being placed in a bag?

Death is personal to each of us and we all react differently to it. I dare say my reaction would be different depending on who in my family unit had died. I’m very much in the ‘when you’re dead, you’re dead’ club. I do believe that the body is just a shell (based on seeing both my parents minutes post death ) and the essence of what we are to others, dissipates, but would that apply if that was my child? I do not know.

I'm absolutely in the 'when you're dead, you're dead' club with you. I'm a funeral director who was raised by a very pragmatic, old school, geriatric nurse. Sentimental I am not.

My job means that I'm also keenly aware of the myriad of different ways that death affects people - As you say a single person's reaction even varies wildly depending on who in the family unit has died.

However, one group of people whose reactions are almost identical are bereaved parents. It's a very singular grief - not just the loss of a loved one, but also the loss of hopes, dreams and an entire future. The rituals around lovingly bathing, dressing, swaddling, cuddling and ceremoniously laying their child to rest are universal in my experience - which is IMO why so many observers and commentors find CM and MG's bag carrying indicative of a lack of love/care/respect for V.

I do think that, had they buried her respectfully in a clean nappy and clothes, in a suitable spot, and marked her grave in some way then people would be less horrified.

 

[Maryanna]

But it’s appropriate for Constance to comment that ‘Jesus was born in a barn’ as part of her defence? As though that compares in any way to raising a baby in a flimsy tent in Britain, in the middle of winter.

Yes - she can make her point in that way and then she can be cross-examined, and the jurors can make of her evidence what they will.

Tom Little could have made his own point without trying to deliver a sarcastic joke - or any other kind of joke.

He could have said but we are not talking about Bethlehem which has a warm climate, but Brighton in January where temperatures dipped below zero last year.

Part of rhetoric is knowing the occasion and the audience, and IMO Femi-Ola has outclassed him.

 

[DianaWW]

Yes - she can make her point in that way and then she can be cross-examined, and the jurors can make of her evidence what they will.

Tom Little could have made his own point without trying to deliver a sarcastic joke - or any other kind of joke.

He could have said but we are not talking about Bethlehem which has a warm climate, but Brighton in January where temperatures dipped below zero last year.

Part of rhetoric is knowing the occasion and the audience, and IMO Femi-Ola has outclassed him.

I disagree. Femi-Ola barely even mentioned MG, I have no idea what his defence is. You may not like the wording, but it is literally his job to pick holes in their defence. And he is correct to point out that CM’s attempts to compare their situation to Jesus, other cultures, and whatever else, do not stand up to scrutiny. Yes, she is entitled to make her point in whichever way she likes, but so is Tom Little. JMO.

 

[DianaWW]

FYI a new episode of The Trial podcast has just been released. I’ve not listened yet, so unsure whether there is any new information.

 

[JennieM]

I'm absolutely in the 'when you're dead, you're dead' club with you. I'm a funeral director who was raised by a very pragmatic, old school, geriatric nurse. Sentimental I am not.

My job means that I'm also keenly aware of the myriad of different ways that death affects people - As you say a single person's reaction even varies wildly depending on who in the family unit has died.

However, one group of people whose reactions are almost identical are bereaved parents. It's a very singular grief - not just the loss of a loved one, but also the loss of hopes, dreams and an entire future. The rituals around lovingly bathing, dressing, swaddling, cuddling and ceremoniously laying their child to rest are universal in my experience - which is IMO why so many observers and commentors find CM and MG's bag carrying indicative of a lack of love/care/respect for V.

I do think that, had they buried her respectfully in a clean nappy and clothes, in a suitable spot, and marked her grave in some way then people would be less horrified.

Very interesting post. Like you say, it’s lack of care that makes it all the more horrifying. They don’t seem to care or care enough.